Shao Kahn needs mids/ranked variants

[Braindead]

Name one reason why giving Shao another mid would not be simple and would make him OP. Name one.

The fact that people want to play a high combo fighting game that's main technique is to NOT use strings that turn into combos but to mash crouching strikes and footies into victory, is stupid beyond comprehension.

It's a single mid starting combo. But for some reason, to you and everyone else, are acting like that's the equivalent of a full screen, unblockable, tracking, 5 start up frame, unpunishable special.

YOU. ALREADY. HAVE. ONE.

The fastest non-poke mid in the game is 9f, yours is 10f. Use that. Why do you want another one? You already have what you're asking for.

Again, you've been told this but you don't want to hear it so gg no re.

 

[NothingPersonal]

His mids are great actually. F3 is hitcomfirmable and somewhat staggerable, B2 has great range and also can be staggered into specials. Coupled with his great great pokes you don't really need highs up close. You're doing something wrong. What I'd like to see is maybe add an extention to his B2 like they did with Kano's 22 in MKX. Would be great.

 

[RoboCop]

No that shouldn't be the way fighting games are played. It's an intellectually lazy playing style that wasn't existent in MK until street fighter players brought over. There's nothing skilled about it. If you think crouching and poking to victory is somehow more skill based than executing a combo.....then your legitimacy as a fan is questionable at best.

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not trolling, so here we go.

First, let’s tackle the “intellectually lazy” part. You seem to be arguing that doing kombos requires more skill than playing the neutral, which is where you’ll be poking and counter poking. Look, anyone can learn a kombo. And once you’ve learned it and practiced it, you’re just going to be able to do it. It’s like learning 2 bars of a song on the piano. Even if you don’t play piano, I bet you could learn to play 2 bars to just about any song, right? So where is the skill in doing kombos? I’d say there’s very little. Where skill comes into play is in landing your kombos; landing that first crucial hit against your opponent.

So how do you land that hit? Footsies. Poking. Playing the neutral game. This is much tougher than just memorizing some kombos. It requires a deep knowledge of your character’s moves and frames as well as your opponent’s character’s moves and frames. It also requires you to download your opponent’s habits while not letting yourself get downloaded. Yes, poking can be annoying, but it is a core component of the neutral game, the most complex part of fighting games. So to say it’s “intellectually lazy”, especially compared to doing kombos, is simply not correct.

So now onto Shao’s lack of fast mids. You seem to be confusing real mids, like Cassie’s f4, with pokes like d1. When people refer to mids, they usually mean a non-poke special-cancelable move. You can cancel a poke into a special, but it won’t kombo. As in, even if the d1 hits, they can still block the special.

So, when you separate true mids from poke mids, you can see that a 10 frame mid is very good. I believe the fastest mids in the game are 9 frames. Poor D’Vorah’s fastest mid is 20 frames. 10 frames is good. And what people are trying to tell you, but that you keep ignoring for some reason, is that Shao can cancel his f3 very late to score decent-damage kombos. It’s a 10-frame hit-confirmable mid. That’s pretty damn good. It just takes practice to master. As someone who despises “intellectually lazy” practices in fighting games, I’d think you would much prefer moves you need to practice over braindead nonsense like Erron Black’s f4, right?

 

[Vengeance135]

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not trolling, so here we go.

First, let’s tackle the “intellectually lazy” part. You seem to be arguing that doing kombos requires more skill than playing the neutral, which is where you’ll be poking and counter poking. Look, anyone can learn a kombo. And once you’ve learned it and practiced it, you’re just going to be able to do it. It’s like learning 2 bars of a song on the piano. Even if you don’t play piano, I bet you could learn to play 2 bars to just about any song, right? So where is the skill in doing kombos? I’d say there’s very little. Where skill comes into play is in landing your kombos; landing that first crucial hit against your opponent.

So how do you land that hit? Footsies. Poking. Playing the neutral game. This is much tougher than just memorizing some kombos. It requires a deep knowledge of your character’s moves and frames as well as your opponent’s character’s moves and frames. It also requires you to download your opponent’s habits while not letting yourself get downloaded. Yes, poking can be annoying, but it is a core component of the neutral game, the most complex part of fighting games. So to say it’s “intellectually lazy”, especially compared to doing kombos, is simply not correct.

So now onto Shao’s lack of fast mids. You seem to be confusing real mids, like Cassie’s f3, with pokes like d1. When people refer to mids, they usually mean a non-poke special-cancelable move. You can cancel a poke into a special, but it won’t kombo. As in, even if the d1 hits, they can still block the special.

So, when you separate true mids from poke mids, you can see that a 10 frame mid is very good. I believe the fastest mids in the game are 9 frames. Poor D’Vorah’s fastest mid is 20 frames. 10 frames is good. And what people are trying to tell you, but that you keep ignoring for some reason, is that Shao can cancel his f3 very late to score decent-damage kombos. It’s a 10-frame hit-confirmable mid. That’s pretty damn good. It just takes practice to master. As someone who despises “intellectually lazy” practices in fighting games, I’d think you would much prefer moves you need to practice with over braindead nonsense like Erron Black’s f4, right?

Beautiful response, just needs a quick edit. Cassie's 9f mid is her F4. Her F3 is much slower. Great explanation!

 

[American Badger]

You dont understand basic fighting game terms, dont understand how to use shaos current mids, and dont want to listen when people try to help you.

Shao already has mid combos starters for every scenario, how do you not understand this yet? A lack of mids are not Shaos issue at all

Did you seriously just ask me that? That proves you have 0 knowledge of this character. Shao Kahn has only 1 mid starting string. And you can't cancel it after the second strike, into a special unlike literally every combo in the game.

I don't even need to defend the fighting game terms remark because it's clear your lack of the game that this entire forum is based around, doesn't even dignify a response.

And telling someone to get over it and insulting this post entirely isn't exactly what I would call helpful.

Still no one has yet to explain the downside to giving him ONE EXTRA MID. 1.

 

[Marlow]

Still no one has yet to explain the downside to giving him ONE EXTRA MID. 1.

I guess the downside would be why give him something he doesn't seem to need?

 

[RoboCop]

Did you seriously just ask me that? That proves you have 0 knowledge of this character. Shao Kahn has only 1 mid starting string. And you can't cancel it after the second strike, into a special unlike literally every combo in the game.

Still no one has yet to explain the downside to giving him ONE EXTRA MID. 1.

Because he doesn't need one. He already has a staggerable hit-confirmable 10-frame mid. Another mid would be redundant; it wouldn't alter his game plan or make him any more viable. No, you can't cancel it after the 2nd hit, but that doesn't matter. You can cancel it after the first hit, and late enough that you can confirm whether or not it connected, making it a totally safe way to start up your kombos.

If that doesn't answer your question, can you explain why you think adding another mid to his kit would improve his viability?

And these people you're arguing with, @Braindead and @Wetdoba , are both excellent players. They know what they're talking about. Are you on PS4? If so, you should try to get in some matches with them. I don't know if @Braindead really plays Shao much, but I know @Wetdoba will make you hate that 10-frame hit-confirmable mid. It will be humbling, but maybe then you'll see what they mean when they say he doesn't need another mid.

 

[Wetdoba]

Did you seriously just ask me that? That proves you have 0 knowledge of this character. Shao Kahn has only 1 mid starting string. And you can't cancel it after the second strike, into a special unlike literally every combo in the game.

I don't even need to defend the fighting game terms remark because it's clear your lack of the game that this entire forum is based around, doesn't even dignify a response.

And telling someone to get over it and insulting this post entirely isn't exactly what I would call helpful.

Still no one has yet to explain the downside to giving him ONE EXTRA MID. 1.

Shao Kahn has 3 mids you dingus.

F3: 10 frame confirmable, staggerable mid into full combo used for enforcing your turn

B2: 13 frame safe, special cancellable mid for whiff punishing into full combo

B3: Meterless launching longe range mid with hammer that can also anti air


It would appear you are in fact the one with no knowledge of the character or how to use him

 

[American Badger]

I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you’re not trolling, so here we go.

First, let’s tackle the “intellectually lazy” part. You seem to be arguing that doing kombos requires more skill than playing the neutral, which is where you’ll be poking and counter poking. Look, anyone can learn a kombo. And once you’ve learned it and practiced it, you’re just going to be able to do it. It’s like learning 2 bars of a song on the piano. Even if you don’t play piano, I bet you could learn to play 2 bars to just about any song, right? So where is the skill in doing kombos? I’d say there’s very little. Where skill comes into play is in landing your kombos; landing that first crucial hit against your opponent.

So how do you land that hit? Footsies. Poking. Playing the neutral game. This is much tougher than just memorizing some kombos. It requires a deep knowledge of your character’s moves and frames as well as your opponent’s character’s moves and frames. It also requires you to download your opponent’s habits while not letting yourself get downloaded. Yes, poking can be annoying, but it is a core component of the neutral game, the most complex part of fighting games. So to say it’s “intellectually lazy”, especially compared to doing kombos, is simply not correct.

So now onto Shao’s lack of fast mids. You seem to be confusing real mids, like Cassie’s f4, with pokes like d1. When people refer to mids, they usually mean a non-poke special-cancelable move. You can cancel a poke into a special, but it won’t kombo. As in, even if the d1 hits, they can still block the special.

So, when you separate true mids from poke mids, you can see that a 10 frame mid is very good. I believe the fastest mids in the game are 9 frames. Poor D’Vorah’s fastest mid is 20 frames. 10 frames is good. And what people are trying to tell you, but that you keep ignoring for some reason, is that Shao can cancel his f3 very late to score decent-damage kombos. It’s a 10-frame hit-confirmable mid. That’s pretty damn good. It just takes practice to master. As someone who despises “intellectually lazy” practices in fighting games, I’d think you would much prefer moves you need to practice over braindead nonsense like Erron Black’s f4, right?

Your piano analogy doesn't even make sense. By your logic you're saying that someone remembering more than one key is less impressive then someone just hitting a single key over and over again. You looked at one side of this metaphor without addressing the other side of it. You're saying that someone remembering two bars on a piano is equivalent to learning a combo which means that low poking is the equivalent of learning to press one key on the piano.

Saying landing the first strike is where the real skill comes in only helps my argument when you're hit someone with the first strike of a string. Your argument is that hitting somebody with a crouch punch is somehow more impressive than hitting somebody with the first strike of a string that doesn't make any sense.

Poking and footsies aren't even remotely skillful. Sitting there and spamming the same low punch over and over again to cancel someone out of their string takes absolutely no skill whatsoever it is the most brainless and lazy tactic there is. You don't have to remember another button you can just use that tactic over and over again. learning a press down on the d-pad and then square on your controller isn't getting more in death or learning your character better. That's like saying learning the presby button directions on the analog stick to jump shows more dedication in your character then learning where his strikes hit.

a neutral game isn't a game that is completely based around crouch punching which isn't even something that was initially a Mortal Kombat style tactic it was something that originated in Street Fighter and spread over to Mortal Kombat like a disease. a neutral game would be like Mortal Kombat 9 when every strike was mid and there wasn't a heavy set of overheads or lows. It was neutral because you couldn't crouch punch as a way of canceling your opponent and you didn't need all the overheads and lows. It was perfectly balanced. That's neutral.

Your differentiation between mids and true mids is probably the pointless attempt how to win an argument or even make a point. When people say mids they mean just mids. Any strike that hits mid. And as I've said a million times over he needs more mid starting strings I don't know what about that is so hard for you to understand. You're making but false identification for a term in order to better your argument.

okay so here's the problem with what you're mainly talking about you don't seem to have a grasp on his character so let me explain. That major talking about the first kick is his only mid starting strength and unlike most combos in this game the second strike of that string can't be canceled out into a special so there's almost no point of using it for a combo. And since it has a frame rate of 10 it doesn't defeat or counter any low poke or low punch which has half the frame rate it does. And since you can't cancel the second strike into a combo and the fact that if you use the full screen and they block it and it's extremely punishable makes the move almost completely useless if it wasn't for the fact that the second strike hits low.

 

[stokedAF]

Shao Kahn has 3 mids you dingus.

F3: 10 frame confirmable, staggerable mid into full combo used for enforcing your turn

B2: 13 frame safe, special cancellable mid for whiff punishing into full combo

B3: Meterless launching longe range mid with hammer that can also anti air


It would appear you are in fact the one with no knowledge of the character or how to use him

Thanks! Didn’t know about B2 lol. Can you combo into the B3?

 

[RoboCop]

Your piano analogy doesn't even make sense. By your logic you're saying that someone remembering more than one key is less impressive then someone just hitting a single key over and over again. You looked at one side of this metaphor without addressing the other side of it. You're saying that someone remembering two bars on a piano is equivalent to learning a combo which means that low poking is the equivalent of learning to press one key on the piano.

Saying landing the first strike is where the real skill comes in only helps my argument when you're hit someone with the first strike of a string. Your argument is that hitting somebody with a crouch punch is somehow more impressive than hitting somebody with the first strike of a string that doesn't make any sense.

Poking and footsies aren't even remotely skillful. Sitting there and spamming the same low punch over and over again to cancel someone out of their string takes absolutely no skill whatsoever it is the most brainless and lazy tactic there is. You don't have to remember another button you can just use that tactic over and over again. learning a press down on the d-pad and then square on your controller isn't getting more in death or learning your character better. That's like saying learning the presby button directions on the analog stick to jump shows more dedication in your character then learning where his strikes hit.

a neutral game isn't a game that is completely based around crouch punching which isn't even something that was initially a Mortal Kombat style tactic it was something that originated in Street Fighter and spread over to Mortal Kombat like a disease. a neutral game would be like Mortal Kombat 9 when every strike was mid and there wasn't a heavy set of overheads or lows. It was neutral because you couldn't crouch punch as a way of canceling your opponent and you didn't need all the overheads and lows. It was perfectly balanced. That's neutral.

Your differentiation between mids and true mids is probably the pointless attempt how to win an argument or even make a point. When people say mids they mean just mids. Any strike that hits mid. And as I've said a million times over he needs more mid starting strings I don't know what about that is so hard for you to understand. You're making but false identification for a term in order to better your argument.

okay so here's the problem with what you're mainly talking about you don't seem to have a grasp on his character so let me explain. That major talking about the first kick is his only mid starting strength and unlike most combos in this game the second strike of that string can't be canceled out into a special so there's almost no point of using it for a combo. And since it has a frame rate of 10 it doesn't defeat or counter any low poke or low punch which has half the frame rate it does. And since you can't cancel the second strike into a combo and the fact that if you use the full screen and they block it and it's extremely punishable makes the move almost completely useless if it wasn't for the fact that the second strike hits low.

Ok, no. I'm not trying to argue with you, but you are turning it into an argument. You have several people on here trying to answer your questions, but you're turning every post into an argument. MK11, and fighting games in general, are probably not for you. Just adding you to my ignore list and moving on. Good luck in life.

 

[SOULWARRIOR 71K]

As a day one Shao main, I don’t think his issue is a lack of mids. It’s more that he doesn’t really do anything better than anyone else, especially against the top tier. A lot of his strings are very negative or have gaps that can be blown up. He basically has to work too hard just to barely keep up.

Also, I’d love to see some footage of someone consistently hit-confirming f3 into full combo in a ranked/tournament setting. I know it’s possible, I just haven’t personally seen it done with any consistency.

 

[Marlow]

Your piano analogy doesn't even make sense. By your logic you're saying that someone remembering more than one key is less impressive then someone just hitting a single key over and over again. You looked at one side of this metaphor without addressing the other side of it. You're saying that someone remembering two bars on a piano is equivalent to learning a combo which means that low poking is the equivalent of learning to press one key on the piano

Actually I'd say it'd be the difference between memorizing how to play a few bars, and being able to learn to read music and know when to hit the keys in the correct timing based on the sheet music.

 

[American Badger]

Because he doesn't need one. He already has a staggerable hit-confirmable 10-frame mid. Another mid would be redundant; it wouldn't alter his game plan or make him any more viable. No, you can't cancel it after the 2nd hit, but that doesn't matter. You can cancel it after the first hit, and late enough that you can confirm whether or not it connected, making it a totally safe way to start up your kombos.

If that doesn't answer your question, can you explain why you think adding another mid to his kit would improve his viability?

And these people you're arguing with, @Braindead and @Wetdoba , are both excellent players. They know what they're talking about. Are you on PS4? If so, you should try to get in some matches with them. I don't know if @Braindead really plays Shao much, but I know @Wetdoba will make you hate that 10-frame hit-confirmable mid. It will be humbling, but maybe then you'll see what they mean when they say he doesn't need another mid.

How would that not make him more viable when every other character having a combo like this which deeply benefits them. It's not a safe way to start up combos because any of his specials are completely punishable and everyone knows that if a first hit into a special almost never works because the players mine said is focused on those first two hits and if the second hit is a special they're going to see it coming from a mile away where is you can use the first two hits of a string to cancel and then do the same to hits of that string but it into a special having them releasing their block.

Againagain you haven't made one legitimate point on how having one more mid starting string would somehow break him as a character. Your only argument is it's redundant and low poking is the true way to play the game.

And way to kiss ass on these random guys in here that I've never met before and that you've probably never met before but you're just saying that for the sake of the argument. And I mean my God if you're struggling to hold up an argument so bad that you have to hype up another person in the comment section and praise them for something you probably have no knowledge of, is pretty sad.

But fine here's my gamertag JustAPeddleFile.

 

[Wetdoba]

Your piano analogy doesn't even make sense. By your logic you're saying that someone remembering more than one key is less impressive then someone just hitting a single key over and over again. You looked at one side of this metaphor without addressing the other side of it. You're saying that someone remembering two bars on a piano is equivalent to learning a combo which means that low poking is the equivalent of learning to press one key on the piano.

Saying landing the first strike is where the real skill comes in only helps my argument when you're hit someone with the first strike of a string. Your argument is that hitting somebody with a crouch punch is somehow more impressive than hitting somebody with the first strike of a string that doesn't make any sense.

Poking and footsies aren't even remotely skillful. Sitting there and spamming the same low punch over and over again to cancel someone out of their string takes absolutely no skill whatsoever it is the most brainless and lazy tactic there is. You don't have to remember another button you can just use that tactic over and over again. learning a press down on the d-pad and then square on your controller isn't getting more in death or learning your character better. That's like saying learning the presby button directions on the analog stick to jump shows more dedication in your character then learning where his strikes hit.

a neutral game isn't a game that is completely based around crouch punching which isn't even something that was initially a Mortal Kombat style tactic it was something that originated in Street Fighter and spread over to Mortal Kombat like a disease. a neutral game would be like Mortal Kombat 9 when every strike was mid and there wasn't a heavy set of overheads or lows. It was neutral because you couldn't crouch punch as a way of canceling your opponent and you didn't need all the overheads and lows. It was perfectly balanced. That's neutral.

Your differentiation between mids and true mids is probably the pointless attempt how to win an argument or even make a point. When people say mids they mean just mids. Any strike that hits mid. And as I've said a million times over he needs more mid starting strings I don't know what about that is so hard for you to understand. You're making but false identification for a term in order to better your argument.

okay so here's the problem with what you're mainly talking about you don't seem to have a grasp on his character so let me explain. That major talking about the first kick is his only mid starting strength and unlike most combos in this game the second strike of that string can't be canceled out into a special so there's almost no point of using it for a combo. And since it has a frame rate of 10 it doesn't defeat or counter any low poke or low punch which has half the frame rate it does. And since you can't cancel the second strike into a combo and the fact that if you use the full screen and they block it and it's extremely punishable makes the move almost completely useless if it wasn't for the fact that the second strike hits low.

You think mashing D1 is footsies. That is why i said you dont know basic fighting game terms, because you dont and I am too lazy to put that much work into explaining the entirety of fighting games to you when you clearly have no intent of taking advice and are just here to troll and/cry so what is the point of this all?

 

[American Badger]

Ok, no. I'm not trying to argue with you, but you are turning it into an argument. You have several people on here trying to answer your questions, but you're turning every post into an argument. MK11, and fighting games in general, are probably not for you. Just adding you to my ignore list and moving on. Good luck in life.

You can't say you're not trying to argue with someone when you adversely and subjectively reply to something they said that's the literal definition of an argument.

Not a single person on here has answered my question you want to know why because I never asked a question. My post was stating that he needs a buff not oh how do I make this character better and your guys's opinion. you're trying to make these people out as some kind of educator for a knowledge that I seem to lack when I didn't ask to be taught anything I was stating something entirely objective.

and if you're so quick to jump to an ignore list you probably shouldn't even have joined the form in the first place if after two replies you can't seem to handle somebody else disagreeing with you.

 

[American Badger]

You think mashing D1 is footsies. That is why i said you dont know basic fighting game terms, because you dont and I am too lazy to put that much work into explaining the entirety of fighting games to you when you clearly have no intent of taking advice and are just here to troll and/cry so what is the point of this all?

it's okay you've already demonstrated how lazy you are since you didn't seem to read all of my comments. I never said crouch punching is footsies I said both crouch punching AND footsies are a stupid way to play.

 

[Marlow]

How are footsies a stupid way to play?

 

[American Badger]

How are footsies a stupid way to play?

How are they not. You're just chipping away damaged with small low kicks and not moving in to make a combo. Even for a game as wildly over-the-top and fantasized as Mortal Kombat playing footsies is the most dumb looking and unrealistic way for someone to fight.

 

[Marlow]

How are they not. You're just chipping away damaged with small low kicks and not moving in to make a combo. Even for a game as wildly over-the-top and fantasized as Mortal Kombat playing footsies is the most dumb looking and unrealistic way for someone to fight.

I always thought footsies was basically walking in and out of range, trying to whiff punish or apply pressure and establish strike/throw mixups or Low/overhead mixups. You're chipping away damage, but you're also looking for hit confirms and whiff punishes.

Moving in to make a combo is a part of footsies, just like moving away or poking the opponent to interrupt their combo is a part of footsies.

That's how I've thought of it. I could be wrong though.

 

[Wetdoba]

How are they not. You're just chipping away damaged with small low kicks and not moving in to make a combo. Even for a game as wildly over-the-top and fantasized as Mortal Kombat playing footsies is the most dumb looking and unrealistic way for someone to fight.

Do you know what a confirm or a whiff punish are? If not someone needs to close this thread. I do not understand why we allow such clueless idiots onto a competitive forumn when all they do is quite literally cry about shit they dont know about and flood this site with more and more bullshit every day

 

[Wetdoba]

Thanks! Didn’t know about B2 lol. Can you combo into the B3?

Yes but theres no point cus theres no follow up after a mid combo B3 due to gravity, it is only used as a starter. Very good corner control with this button, great for jumping beans

 

[Immortal]

No idea why you people even bother to explain him the basics of Shao Kahn when he clearly just doesn't want to use the (good) tools that SK has and want another one (of the same) for some imagined reasons which will not adress any of the characters actual shortcomings.

This is a troll thread made by new user or a hidey which should get closed.

Shao Kahn has 3 mids of which one is pretty amazing and many people who play other characters would "kill" for a 10f mid. He doesn't need another mid.

/thread

 

[American Badger]

No idea why you people even bother to explain him the basics of Shao Kahn when he clearly just doesn't want to use the (good) tools that SK has and want another one (of the same) for some imagined reasons which will not adress any of the characters actual shortcomings.

This is a troll thread made by new user or a hidey which should get closed.

Shao Kahn has 3 mids of which one is pretty amazing and many people who play other characters would "kill" for a 10f mid. He doesn't need another mid.

/thread

Your saying this without any knowledge of the character itself your simply hopping on the bandwagon and siding with the others on here for a sad attempt of recognition.

Like it's so blatant it isn't even funny. Shao Kahns mids are terrible. One that can't be canceled after the second strike so it makes it as useful as a crouch punch with 2x the less speed. His other mid being a launcher that can't be followed up with a special unless timed correctly but is completely predictable and even more punishable.

Saying he has mids others would "kill for" is probably the most sad half assed attempt at an argument in this thread so far. It just shows your lack of Shao Kahns mechanics and gameplay.

 

[American Badger]

Do you know what a confirm or a whiff punish are? If not someone needs to close this thread. I do not understand why we allow such clueless idiots onto a competitive forumn when all they do is quite literally cry about shit they dont know about and flood this site with more and more bullshit every day

How did that imply I didn't know what they are. I'm saying it's a boring way to play. But if your so full of yourself I posted my gamertag. You can show me your TOTALLY not as stupid and desperate for approval like every one else on here.

It's sad you pay even the smallest amount, or even care, about what is posted on here. I'm sorry your pathetic world is crumbling for you.