Response to Jchensors' comments on NeoEmpire regarding the status of MK

[King Rizz]

Recently on SRK an interview with James Chen conducted by NeoEmpire was posted. In it, James made some comments regarding MK compared to MvC3. Now I'm a fan of both games, and I don't care for fanboys bashing either game without good evidence just because they lack the ability to play one or the other, however I had to respond to his comments. This is his quote from NeoEmpire:

There have been a few threads with a large number of posts on both SRK and Mortal Kombat’s Test Your Might forums about a comment you made on MK9 stating: “I definitely feel that the game is lacking in the depth department” in one of your IGN articles. Some players wondered why you felt this way as you didn’t go into enough detail in the article, mainly as your article was on IGN where you can’t really go into nerdy fighting game specifics. Is there anything further you would like to add now?

Yeah, I actually answered that in an Shoryuken.com forum thread at one point, because I felt it was only fair to address my concerns to the people who would understand and appreciate feedback and intelligent debate. But without going into much detail, I just didn’t feel like the game has a lot of room for experimenting and variations, due to a lot of the “dial-a-combo” nature of the game system. The creativity, I believed at the time, was limited mostly to combos and not much else. I’ve changed my tune since then, and I do think the game has evolved in many ways I didn’t expect, and I’m happy to be wrong. I still don’t think the game is quite as deep as many others. For example, I still think we are only at 15% to 20% capacity of knowledge and understanding of MvC3. I think there is still about 80% of the game we haven’t found yet. But I’d say we are at around 70% to 80% understanding of MK9, not factoring in balance changes from patches. And keep in mind, I never meant it as a criticism. I think MK9 plays fine, and if it continues being played how it’s being played now, I think that’s perfectly fine. I’m mostly worried now that the thing that was supposed to help keep it competitive, the constant patching, has actually become a problem in that people are growing weary of the constant changes.

Now he was not bashing the game, he also did go on to state he was wrong about prior comments he made and that he was glad he was wrong. However his comparison between the two games in terms of how much depth they had bothered me a bit. I responded on SRK in length just now and in short I laid out how I think recent tournament events proved him wrong and how certain mechanics in MvC3 limit what even needs to be explored. This changes the comparison with MK which has been experiencing exponential variation and change in recent tournaments. I also go on to discuss my views on NRS's patching. Now I know this community is divided on this subject, but I do think much better of it in light of recent tournaments. If you're willing to read it, here's my quote:

I like James but his comments on MK compared to MvC3 leads me to believe he honestly knows next to nothing about the game nor does he care to learn.
Now I like MvC3 for all the things it does right and I agree when he says the game has yet to be fully fleshed out, however I disagree on the comparison between MK and MvC3. Just look at the tournament results. In MvC3 we’re seeing the exact same results in terms of what teams are being used, team synergy, and overall effectiveness of skilled players using particular teams. Granted, there is much to be discovered among the rest of the cast, however since it is a tourney season players will just use what they know works. However, a deciding factor among those decisions are the capabilities of the DHC glitch and a character’s effectiveness with X-Factor (particularly lv3). Even the commentators at ECT brought up the overuse of DHC teams and Phoenix teams (even worse combined, lol). These gimmicks alone really limit what is possible in this game for a hardcore competitive scene. It doesn’t matter how much depth there is to the rest of the cast when all you need are the same 12 characters in set teams relying on the same gimmicks. If it works THAT well, why bother exploring any further when nothing else works as well? Sure, bring up how Spiderman or whoever can snuff out a D. Phoenix transformation, but are we seeing that? No, because using those characters compromises the greater strengths of more capable teams.

Now lets look at MK’s recent tournaments. Yes, at the beginning we saw a lot of the same characters and NRS’s debuffing of those characters could have led to their decline in popularity, but look at how many players have been placing with different characters in each tournament. For the first time we’ve been seeing phenomenal play from Liu Kang, Jax, Sindel, Sektor, and Jade. More than half the cast is more than viable and more players are doing amazing experimentation with characters once thought ‘low tier’ (there are players now doing scary scary things using Sheeva of all characters). Now most of this is due to the constant patching. He claims it hurts more than it helps, but if thats the case than why are we seeing such huge variation among results? What we have is a very vocal minority who believe the patching hurts their playstyles, yet we’re seeing the opposite from the majority of players who are getting favorable results from trying new things and experimenting with new combinations. If anything, this game has yet to be fully explored to the 70% he claims. Now there’s no way to prove what percentage MK or MvC3 is at without approaching MIT professors, but I can see that Jchen’s view is no where near the actuality of it. Why does he state this then when results show he’s absolutely wrong? As with any under performing student he’s just not paying enough attention.

I'll also include links to the various sites cited in this response.
SRK: http://shoryuken.com/2011/06/26/neoempire-interviews-james-jchensor-chen/#comment-13018
NeoEmpire: http://www.neoempire.com/?p=9451

I'm curious to see everyone's response to this as well. I know its a lot to read and if you did read it all, Thank You for helping a writing tutor believe his field doesn't go to waste, haha. Still, I don't mean to bash on James as I do enjoy his commentary and the passion he has for the scene, but I don't like it when someone of his standing makes what I feel are untrue remarks about a game with a community that is just starting to grow. I think comments like this have the potential to hurt the growth of the community which is particularly painful when they are false. Please, if you have any comments on this I would love to read them and see where our community stands. Thank You.
-Rizz

EDIT: Also, here's a link to Jchen's response to a former article posted by IGN back in early May on the SRK forums.
http://shoryuken.com/forum/threads/james-chen-thinks-mk9-lacks-depth.133435/page-2
However, I won't go into detailing my thoughts on this article since he debunked himself in the most recent one, stating that he was proven wrong and that he was happy that was the case. Also, rather than being redirected to a SRK discussion, I feel our community deserves to share our own thoughts on our forum seeing as this is our game and dedication on the line.

 

[ClawlessVictory]

Let me say that I like Mortal Kombat and couldn't care less about MvC3, but you don't see anyone suggesting that MvC3 is going to die after EVO, only MK. I think that says something.

I think the problem when spectating Mortal Kombat is that usually the game revolves around jumping in with a punch and performing the same attack string over and over again. As much as I like MK, it's definitely boring to watch.

Granted, I haven't played MK as much as I'd like to due to the embarrassingly bad netcode so I can't comment fully on it's seeming lack of depth, but that's a whole other can of worms...

 

[Tim Static]

Ive been saying since Evo games were announced MvC3 is a one and done game for Evo. Its far from a game like MvC2, and i not to mention the fact Capcom has more titles coming, i just dont see that game with an Evo lifespan beyond this year.

As for MK9, who knows. Its an ever changing game, made different with every patch/hot flix. Its a total ? right now.

 

[DCT]

Let me say that I like Mortal Kombat and couldn't care less about MvC3, but you don't see anyone suggesting that MvC3 is going to die after EVO, only MK. I think that says something.

I think the problem when spectating Mortal Kombat is that usually the game revolves around jumping in with a punch and performing the same attack string over and over again. As much as I like MK, it's definitely boring to watch.

Granted, I haven't played MK as much as I'd like to due to the embarrassingly bad netcode so I can't comment fully on it's seeming lack of depth, but that's a whole other can of worms...

You want to know why no one really thinks Marvel 3 is going to die after EVO it because Marvel 2 as broken as it was lasted 10 years and to the best of my memory never really had to fight to stay in the limelight for those ten years. MK even UMK3 on the other hand had to, so of course people are going to think Marvel 3 is going to last while MK isn't because Marvel has the better track record in peoples mind.

As for MK boiling down to jumping in and doing the same string over and over, tell me how does that differ from Phoenix, Wolverine, level 3 x factor and exploiting the DHC glitch to try to one hit kill your opponent?

Honestly I can tell you the difference right now is that there's more of a chance of MK changing away from that while Marvel 3 doesn't save from either a completely new version of the game or a major patch that fixes Xfactor, DHC glitch, ect.

But again anyone can tell you if MK is to thrive after EVO the MK community needs really bear down and support our game and dedicated streams for this game such as the Valley stream monsters stream.

 

[King Rizz]

Let me say that I like Mortal Kombat and couldn't care less about MvC3, but you don't see anyone suggesting that MvC3 is going to die after EVO, only MK. I think that says something.

I think the problem when spectating Mortal Kombat is that usually the game revolves around jumping in with a punch and performing the same attack string over and over again. As much as I like MK, it's definitely boring to watch.

Granted, I haven't played MK as much as I'd like to due to the embarrassingly bad netcode so I can't comment fully on it's seeming lack of depth, but that's a whole other can of worms...

Not to rip on you too much man but thats really not how this game is played at high level. Yes, most BnB's involve a cross-up jump in punch because its an easy way to get a combo started (particularly for characters than can get a safe-jump), but there's a ton of other, usually better options. Most players know to beware a jump in anyway...its just as dangerous in this game as it is in any other...save Marvel 3 for the most part.

@Tim, I actually don't see many current games sticking around for multiple Evos because developers are pumping new games out constantly now. SFxT, TTT2, TTT1HD, SC5, SF3TSOE, KoF13, MKK, SG, and propably 10 other acronymed games are due by next Evo. That is a TON for the Evo committee to consider unless they want to up the roster to more than 5-6 games. Who knows whats due out the year after. I would be impressed if any current game on this year's roster returned. There's also the rumor of a Super MvC3....patching and adding DLC is the best way for MK to keep things fresh in my mind. By fall I think the only patching we'll see a lot of are bug fixes and stuff for the DLC characters.

 

[Neclord]

Just look at the tournament results. In MvC3 we’re seeing the exact same results in terms of what teams are being used, team synergy, and overall effectiveness of skilled players using particular teams.

This is maybe true, but MK9 has the same problem in my opinion. Every time I watch MK9 on the stream I only see Kung Lao vs Reptile or Johnny Cage vs Raiden or Sub Zero vs Kabal. And sadly I have to agree with ClawlessVictory, MK9 is a fun game, but it is really boring to watch, especially when you always see the same characters used over and over again.

Over half of the cast is not really being used. And that sucks for all the watchers who doesn't use top tier characters.

 

[Zerosoulreaver]

The thing is MvC 3 isn't ever going to change. With MK, at least the game changes and it allows new characters to possibly be explored. I honestly don't see just the same characters always being used all the time.

MK is a lot of fun to watch to me because you see how players react to different things. It's just like watching SF to me honestly, the matches aren't extremely fast paced and are a bit like playing chess. Every move has to be carefully done, you can't just toss shit out in these games.

MvC is just a bunch of shit flying everywhere on screen and whoever can toss out the most shit usually wins. Not that their isn't any strategy in it, there is but it's a lot different then MK or SF because MVC is all about hounding your opponent to death with attacks or xfactor. You rarely see guys play strategic keep away unless they are running from Pheonix and even then they fail at it a lot. It's all about hitting huge combos most of the time.

As for the games in general, MvC3 is the biggest disappointment to me. When Capcom first released it I was all hype because they mentioned dlc characters every few months and having patches. MvC has only had 1 real patch and it changed nothing substantial enough. After Shuma and Jill were a huge disappointment to me I stop caring honestly and I feel like Capcom has stop caring as well.

So, really the difference is at least MK stays on top of their shit. Even if changes may not come out as soon as people desire at least we know things are in the works. With Marvel it's all guess work when a big dlc or patch will ever be released again.

 

[JennyCage]

I think part of the reason MK9 is a little boring to watch is because chip damage is so extreme. Close matches don't happen as often because a person locked down in pressure strings and frame traps (especially the kind Kung Lao and Johnny Cage can deliver) can chip so much of your life away, they're practically like combos of their own. It really hurts the potential for comebacks (though they still exist obviously), and comebacks and close matches are what build hype. If chip damage only happened with special moves, that might change things a bit... but it also might make matches run too long, especially against defensive characters like Sub-Zero. Then again, the timer running out isn't a big deal... if anything it encourages the same aggression that extreme chip damage does so it might balance out.

 

[DrDogg]

I agree with James Chen that MK has almost reached it's peak, in terms of depth. There's only so much you can do in a game that's almost 100% offensive. You can't even tech throws without releasing block, at which point it becomes a 50/50. You're forced into another 50/50 by blocking a jump punch. Not to mention the training mode is terrible for high level players. Decisions like this drastically limit the game at high levels.

When I play MK, I feel like I have a good grasp on a character after playing a session or two with them. Now, it takes longer to become high level, but when I compare this to MvC3, Tekken or Soul Calibur, it took me at least a solid week just to get a grasp on a new character, and that was with frame data and a proper training mode (two things MK is lacking right now).

I'm enjoying MK for the most part, but I feel as though MK10 will be the game that stays around. MK9, to me, feels like a stepping stone... a very good stepping stone, but a stepping stone nonetheless.

 

[Richmatic]

MK is changing they are releasing new characters pretty fast and patching most of the broken shit. I like the depth of MK I don't care about the rest the bullcrap and no offense to Chen but doesn't he get blown up everytime he plays MK. The game has problems but having so much depth in a fighting game engine doesn't always make it good. MVC3 isn't getting any better because x-factor is stupid, wolvie instant back berserker slash is stupid, phoenix is 11 year old mugen character, no new characters. The game would be way better if they planned to support the game after launch not just two quick patches and have fun with this touch of death combo game. Fix mvc3 please I want it to be good until then its MK then SFxT KOF and even skullgirls.

 

[King Rizz]

I'm glad to be seeing a good variation of comments so far. Though I honestly see much more variation among characters used in the different streams (but I stream a lot so this is an advantage to me). I honestly can't remember KL players dominated a tournament since PerfectLegend won UFGT7. Since then, the variation has been wild. I also think a lot of what people are seeing from MK is being limited due to the over presentation of 'particular games' on the major stream channels. I know this isn't something up to the stream managers, but I have little faith in organizers who purport to support the various scenes yet choose to showcase very little. Maybe we could take a page out of the BlazBlue community's play book and garner our own dedicated streams, though that does limit potential growth and showcasing to communities and players that wouldn't otherwise see true MK in action.
ECT really was among the shining moments for MK compared to other games. There was a lot of the usual going on, yet with MK there were major upsets by players using characters that do not typically get much game time. Though maybe if certain definite problems such as the lackluster training mode were improved, more players would find the tools necessary to see how much depth has yet to be explored.
On the note of how much depth each character has and how long it takes to see that, I think that is strictly relative to individual players. I find it quite easy to experiment with characters and create new combos in many games. SF, MK, and MvC3 all felt relatively short to me, though Tekken was a bit longer though not by much, however I've been playing fighting games since I was 4 (I'm 22 now) and my own professional training forces me to think critically, so I have that advantage I think.
Questions about what Capcom has in store for MvC3 should be answered by Comic Con. I also try to take into account the earthquake that happened just after the game's release as a possible source of the delays the game has had, but all will be known within the next couple weeks I'm sure.

 

[Check]

Great post, Dr Dogg.

 

[thwak]

Let me say that I like Mortal Kombat and couldn't care less about MvC3, but you don't see anyone suggesting that MvC3 is going to die after EVO, only MK.

I'm just going to respond to this one statement because it's something I hear a lot. The thing is, the people saying that are capcom loyalists and stream monsters. If you look at the turn outs for MK at tournaments, yeah they're smaller than MVC and SFIV, but they're generally bigger than tekken, AH3, melty blood, blaz blue, you get the idea. I mean hell, if your even running a tournament you want MK9 to succeed because it's better business.

This notion still scares me though, because when I look at people bashing MK9 I look at the people who bashed HD Remix. While I know HD Remix is still a controversial game, the level of hatred it received was completely ridiculous in my opinion. The super turbo elitists absolutely killed that game. The complete negative attitude that game got, some just but mostly unjust (I'm looking at the people who complained about the easier inputs), made me feel ashamed to be part of the fighting game community in general.

If anything is going to kill MK9, it's that. Does MK9 have issues? Of course! Very few are saying the game is perfect. But this game isn't going to kill itself, I'm confident in that.

As for James Chen's argument: Yeah MVC3 has more to be discovered, but why would you try and figure out what Morrigan does if you can just pick Phoenix and win?

 

[LordxMugen]

I'm just going to respond to this one statement because it's something I hear a lot. The thing is, the people saying that are capcom loyalists and stream monsters. If you look at the turn outs for MK at tournaments, yeah they're smaller than MVC and SFIV, but they're generally bigger than tekken, AH3, melty blood, blaz blue, you get the idea. I mean hell, if your even running a tournament you want MK9 to succeed because it's better business.

This notion still scares me though, because when I look at people bashing MK9 I look at the people who bashed HD Remix. While I know HD Remix is still a controversial game, the level of hatred it received was completely ridiculous in my opinion. The super turbo elitists absolutely killed that game. The complete negative attitude that game got, some just but mostly unjust (I'm looking at the people who complained about the easier inputs), made me feel ashamed to be part of the fighting game community in general.

If anything is going to kill MK9, it's that. Does MK9 have issues? Of course! Very few are saying the game is perfect. But this game isn't going to kill itself, I'm confident in that.

As for James Chen's argument: Yeah MVC3 has more to be discovered, but why would you try and figure out what Morrigan does if you can just pick Phoenix and win?

and this is why i hate the General FGC!! as a community built on a competitive genre that just now really coming back into its own in worldwide popularity, why on gods green earth would you want a game that people really enjoy and brings people in to play die?! like we all have differences of opinion and some people like some games more than others. but to want an entire community to just up and die because you dont think they belong in your elitist tournaments is just absolute insanity. but whats worse about it is that so much venom is spewed in our direction, that after awhile, even the T.Os and streamers believe it, what with us constantly losing stream time to other games cause somehow were not popular enough with the stream community. and its hilarious in and of itself because our majors constantly fill up and as for ECT having a shit load of byes in some pools, well we all know why and for some thats understandable. but we still brought down the house (pretty much literally) and everybody seemed in high spirits and we had an enjoyable tournament. so why is it we have to worry about our scene dying?! why is it our community has to be worried that our games life expectancy is nill after EVO?! why do we have to worry what happens to MK9 when the facts speak for themselves huh?! thats what i dont understand, and whats worse is that no matter how much we show them theyre wrong about our game, we constantly have to be told the same bullshit "after EVO your game will die HURR HURR." what a pathetic community we have been saddled with. and yes, i get to say that when this very niche group would rather shoot its own kneecaps off than grow and be as diverse as possible so everybody can have fun and be happy.

 

[King Rizz]

I'm starting to think the whole elitist snob thing is primarily an issue in the hubs that host majors where people are constantly holding tournaments and most importantly competing for cash prizes. In Memphis we do have a large scene in terms of numbers, however we don't have a whole lot of major events in our town; because of the casual 'in it for the fun' nature of our scene, we don't have very much elitism at all (those who do rarely ever show up anyway - total buzzkills). So maybe that makes me less of an authority to comment on the elitism of what looks to be a very vocal minority, but that's what it looks like to me - a minority of players that for whatever reason try to impose authority in an area where they are liable to be heard.

 

[Juggs]

James has opinions just like everyone else. Just because he is "known" in the fgc it doesn't mean his opinions hold anymore weight than anyone else's.

That being said, I agree that MK9 lacks depth among other things. Though, nearly every fighter today lacks in some area or another, such as the other two popular tournament games, MvC3 and SSF4:AE.

It doesn't matter though. The game could be the worst fighting game ever, as long as it's fun, competitive and there's a scene backing it, it will be played at tournaments. So, just play the game(s) you want to play and don't waste your time belittling other games.

 

[thwak]

James has opinions just like everyone else. Just because he is "known" in the fgc it doesn't mean his opinions hold anymore weight than anyone else's.

That being said, I agree that MK9 lacks depth among other things. Though, nearly every fighter today lacks in some area or another, such as the other two popular tournament games, MvC3 and SSF4:AE.

It doesn't matter though. The game could be the worst fighting game ever, as long as it's fun, competitive and there's a scene backing it, it will be played at tournaments. So, just play the game(s) you want to play and don't waste your time belittling other games.

Shout outs to Jackie Chan's Fist of Fire.

 

[Raidenwins]

Let me say that I like Mortal Kombat and couldn't care less about MvC3, but you don't see anyone suggesting that MvC3 is going to die after EVO, only MK. I think that says something.

I think the problem when spectating Mortal Kombat is that usually the game revolves around jumping in with a punch and performing the same attack string over and over again. As much as I like MK, it's definitely boring to watch.

Granted, I haven't played MK as much as I'd like to due to the embarrassingly bad netcode so I can't comment fully on it's seeming lack of depth, but that's a whole other can of worms...

I haven't read through the whole thread so pardon me if someone already made that point, but why is the so-called "spectating" even a factor in judging a game?! It's a game, it's meant to be played, not "spectated". Movies are for spectating, games are for playing.

Now, whether MK is dying after EVO or not, those are just speculative comments. Why is a speculation even considered in this argument? Anybody can speculate about anything. Why not wait till after EVO, see what actually happens and go from there?!

 

[RagingNight]

I like how people are quick to judge mvc3 but yet get super defensive when it comes to MK9. Hypocritical much?

And to correct people.

MvC3 has been ever changing since the game came out. If you compared every month what teams/character were popular/top pick you would notice they have been different. Wolverine was not a popular character until recently (a month~). Phoenix was not a popular character till a month + after the game came out. XF lvl 3 was very common in mvc3 early lifespan but has now shifted towards blowing early XF to swing momentum and/or kill vital characters. Air grab were not being commonly used, if at all, in the first few months of the game. etc etc the list goes on.

People always seem to forget mvc2 lived so long due to an accident, that nobody intended the game to center around the holy trinity of magneto/sentinel/storm, that the top tiers in the early years had iceman(lol?) and not sentinel or storm, or that one touch from either of the 3 (m/s/s) could kill you easily. Or that mvc2 was faster and more of a "clusterfuck" than mvc3 is.

But in the end I guess it is easy to label a game "no-skilled" "mashing buttons" and having no strategy and just remember the old days.

Now back on topic.

MK9 lasting past evo is solely based on the community and comparing it to other games (especially negatively) is not going to help garner any support from fans of other fighting games. Stop worrying about whether the game will or will not naturally change in progression, and just let it happen on its own. I honestly liked mk9 but dropped it temporarily due to both online and training mode being ass.

 

[Sequel]

I agree with James Chen that MK has almost reached it's peak, in terms of depth. There's only so much you can do in a game that's almost 100% offensive. You can't even tech throws without releasing block, at which point it becomes a 50/50. You're forced into another 50/50 by blocking a jump punch. Not to mention the training mode is terrible for high level players. Decisions like this drastically limit the game at high levels.

When I play MK, I feel like I have a good grasp on a character after playing a session or two with them. Now, it takes longer to become high level, but when I compare this to MvC3, Tekken or Soul Calibur, it took me at least a solid week just to get a grasp on a new character, and that was with frame data and a proper training mode (two things MK is lacking right now).

I'm enjoying MK for the most part, but I feel as though MK10 will be the game that stays around. MK9, to me, feels like a stepping stone... a very good stepping stone, but a stepping stone nonetheless.

I tried explaining this to Tom Brady but he refused to believe it. *shrug*

 

[King Rizz]

I tried explaining this to Tom Brady but he refused to believe it. *shrug*

Well, I guess I may be inclined to agree with Tom then.

Also, I'm not hating on MvC3 at all. I do really enjoy the game, just on a more casual level than MK. I have certain misgiving about how the competitive level of the game is run, and judging from what people brought from MvC2, I expect a similar pattern. However I do realize MvC2 had ten years of constant variation, though I have my own theories on how the mindset of the new generation of competitive players could negate such concepts brought about by longevity (but that is a MUCH different topic better saved for another time).

I also admit, that I am new to the hardcore scene and I'm still learning new things about the community every day. However, being a part of something I've looked for in my area for such a long time, I really hope that this overall community stays strong well into our future. I have my views on the state of this game and theories on how it can change in the future, and so I am open to debate on that. When I see a random troll flame the game, I just ignore them, but when I see an intelligent player come to a conclusion that I believe is false, I'd like to talk it over. But trust me I don't mean to hate on anyone or any game community.
James always has my respect for being a fellow Felicia fanboy, lol.