Match-up Discussion Raven Matchup Discussion

[TrulyAmiracle]

you can do singularity to the other side and it sometimes works, I'd say its not worth the risk though. s3 also works sometimes if you delay it so she does it to their side.

Against doomsday MB b3 is your friend, a LOT of his stupid shit (the gamma crush unblockable, shoulder charge etc) is just 1 hit so armoring though is very useful.
This is one of the matchups where i believe being in demon stance as much as possible is important, Pillars give him trouble especially if you EX them and if he does anything stupid db2 him to full combo.

Its still a really bad matchup, I'd say its one of her worst matchups along with Sinestro, and Grundy.

 

[vegeta]

Pushblock? Probably obvious to most people but I often forget its there. Lol

yyyeeeaaaa....I forgot about that. Thing is though you run outta meter before he does a lot. I also figured out that he keeps doing that teleport crap, I started Meter Burning b or f3 on him. That was the second doomsday I've played, but only first at length. I learned a pretty good amount today after getting put in the floor.

 

[vegeta]

you can do singularity to the other side and it sometimes works, I'd say its not worth the risk though. s3 also works sometimes if you delay it so she does it to their side.

Against doomsday MB b3 is your friend, a LOT of shit stupid shit (the gamma crush unblockable, shoulder charge etc) is just 1 hit so armoring though is very useful.
This is one of the matchups where i believe being in demon stance as much as possible is important, Pillars give him trouble especially if you EX them and if he does anything stupid db2 him to full combo.

Its still a really bad matchup, I'd say its one of her worst matchups along with Sinestro, and Grundy.

LOL I just now read this after replying and yeah, MB B3 was godly. Also I did try to spend a lot of time in Demon stance too. Some of these matchups are just so terrible right now it's not even funny. Seem almost mandatory to learn a second character (which I'm doing, though I'm holding out to check out some DLC chars before I go all in with Harley)

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

Idk about having to use a second character, I tried that with SF4 and sadly all 3 of my characters had the same bad matchups >__>;

Using another character seems like the easy way out and honestly I think sticking with the character and learning how to approach the matchup and play it properly will have a better pay-off. There's no denying that the game is very match-up dependent so far though and having a second character doesnt hurt lol.

 

[vegeta]

Idk about having to use a second character, I tried that with SF4 and sadly all 3 of my characters had the same bad matchups >__>;

Using another character seems like the easy way out and honestly I think sticking with the character and learning how to approach the matchup and play it properly will have a better pay-off. There's no denying that the game is very match-up dependent so far though and having a second character doesnt hurt lol.

No no no, don't get me wrong. I'm stubborn and don't quit or take any easy ways out. I choose characters of interest, sometimes even before I see gameplay. In fighting games i always follow my "rule of two" I usually choose a main and a backup (mostly because at times I like more than one character). My main is always my focus. My original second choice was Harley. I've only got as far as memorizing one combo and what her moves are. I've been playing raven 95% of the time trying to figure out matchups and gain exp. I'm simply saying some matchups right now are very one sided and a backup would be good if its life or death in a tournament for example if you know you can beat (x) character with your secondary and hit the lab after with your main or lose with your main right then and there. Raven is and will be my main throughout this games lifespan. I'm shopping for a backup but will put no time into them until raven is a solid enough level in my hands.

 

[KH_Seraph]

The matchup against Grundy is so bad it isn't even funny haha. I'd say it's easily 7-3, or 8-2 against a really good Grundy player who knows the Raven M/U. Stage environment also plays a huge factor. Anyone have new tips or feedback in regards to this matchup? Every string and special literally gets blown up by his armor; My overhead F2233 was just completely blown up by it for example. It seems like the only thing I can do is jump around and press 2 or 3, but even then I run the risk of getting anti-air grabbed... ugh. I wish they at least buffed her projectile so that it hit twice instead of once, or at least made it meter-burnable so she can handle these bad matchups better.

You have to literally mindfuck and lame the hell out of a Grundy player to even stand a chance.

 

[kabelfritz]

The matchup against Grundy is so bad it isn't even funny haha. I'd say it's easily 7-3, or 8-2 against a really good Grundy player who knows the Raven M/U. Stage environment also plays a huge factor. Anyone have new tips or feedback in regards to this matchup? Every string and special literally gets blown up by his armor; My overhead F2233 was just completely blown up by it for example. It seems like the only thing I can do is jump around and press 2 or 3, but even then I run the risk of getting anti-air grabbed... ugh. I wish they at least buffed her projectile so that it hit twice instead of once, or at least made it meter-burnable so she can handle these bad matchups better.

You have to literally mindfuck and lame the hell out of a Grundy player to even stand a chance.

armored b/f3 blows up grundys armor

 

[Villest1]

AQUAMAN

FYI I sometimes refer to Singularity as Soul Slam from time to time sorry for the confusion..

– Regular Trident Rush (df1 aka Hundred Hands) seems to be completely safe on block. However in some cases depending on the range the last trident poke will whiff while your blocking and you are free to punish with Soul Crush(df2) or Soul Slam(db2).

-From The Deep(db2 aka seismo aka ground slam thing) is punishable on block by Soul Crush from anywhere on screen. It is also punishable on block by Soul Slam, Super and f222 as long as your in range. It's pretty much punishable by anything.

-Trident Toss- (bf2 aka trident projectile) similar to "From the Deep" this move is punishable on block by Soul Crush from anywhere on the screen and if in range also punishable by Singularity. The interesting thing about this move is that you can simply duck it and punish it with pretty much ANYTHING you want. If he dares to throw one of these out while your in jump-In range you can simply duck it and jump in for an incredibly painful punish.


-Trident Scoop (db1 aka low trident sweep) This move is pretty safe or so AQUAMAN players think. On block it can only be punished by Soul Crush from what I can tell. Not much but plenty useful against Aquanmen who abuse it.


So from what I can gather just by testing out his special moves this is a pretty rough fight for Aquaman. He really can't just throw out random special moves up close OR while playing keep away.

PLEASE KEEP IN MIND these are just my thoughts after testing out his specials in the lab. I haven't tested his Strings or his Trait at all yet.

 

[Villest1]

BLACK ADAM

I have a couple tips for people having problems vs Black Adam. I was really struggling with him but since I've implemented these minor changes I have been doing a lot better.

-Crouch block: I found that when spending most of the match crouch blocking I take a lot less random damage. The only time you should stand block is on wake-up, when hes jumping in, when in divekick range and when he is applying pressure.
--the reason it's not important to crouch block when he is applying pressure is because he has no strings that hit low. His only low hitting normal is d3 and that does minimal damage.

-Pay attention to his patterns. If you see he likes spamming Lighting Strike (df2 low hitting lighting bolt) when hes fullscreen try and predict it. If you can predict it and just jump it you can punish it with Soul Crush when you land.
--if he uses Black Storm (db1 the low hitting black cloud) you can punish him on block with Soul Crush or Singularity if your in range.

-PUNISH AND PUNISH HARD.

Just some simple tips I came across. Probably common sense for most people but they help me a lot in the matchup.

 

[Sami]

Biggest advice I can give for comboing Aquaman is to get him off the ground ASAP. You might give up a few % going straight for MB Singularity (only when safe of course!), but the moment he's in the air his trait is useless. For jump-ins, ji3 is the only one that knocks him off his feet so he shouldn't (not tested) be able to trait/block the follow-up hits.

 

[vegeta]

I'm seriously getting very irritated with these half ass doomsday players doing BS I can't punish and getting one hit that takes a load of health yet I hit him and it takes much effort to do any serious damage. His trait is too stupid as well. Is there ANY real way to fight him with Raven? His crossups are really retarded and Using Singularity doesn't work as it seems not to be fast enough to AA him if you react to it as opposed to guessing

 

[MrSoloLobo]

I am a decent Raven player (something like 110 wins to 30 losses ranked) and I get DESTROYED by Grundy and Doomsday. Superman is also starting to be a problem for me too. I think Raven is pretty good but these 3 matchups are clearly one sided.

 

[Sami]

What variety of Superman are you having trouble with - zoning or up-close?

 

[MrSoloLobo]

What variety of Superman are you having trouble with - zoning or up-close?

Both, actually, but I'm having more trouble with zoning Superman. I probably shouldn't because Raven is supposedly so amazing as an anti-zoner but I still get beat. I don't know what to do when he's fullscreen and he jump and beams me. df2 doesn't work fullscreen obviously and doesn't work even if he's not fullscreen because he's so high up. I could try going in to demon stance and get hit but then teleport is so expected. Is there something you would suggest? I am probably missing something cause I haven't spent much time in practice mode. I generally just have most of my experience from online play.

 

[Shamwow0w0w]

My random notes on Raven vs Superman MU.
If Superman is jumping and doing lasers you can definitely catch him on his way down with soul crush/or jump with him, pop trait, tele and still have time to catch him on his way down.. If he is shooting straight beams I prefer to walk and duck until im in range to soul crush because the risk/reward of absorbing the beam is not worth it if you mistime it.

***But the biggest thing that will throw a Superman off his game is if he is pressuring you with f23breath pressure you can interupt it with 11f2 Slam for a full combo. Then he will have to respect her with his pressure and it becomes a guessing game from there leaving you both in a neutral position to make the right read.

 

[MrSoloLobo]

My random notes on Raven vs Superman MU.
If Superman is jumping and doing lasers you can definitely catch him on his way down with soul crush/or jump with him, pop trait, tele and still have time to catch him on his way down.. If he is shooting straight beams I prefer to walk and duck until im in range to soul crush because the risk/reward of absorbing the beam is not worth it if you mistime it.

***But the biggest thing that will throw a Superman off his game is if he is pressuring you with f23breath pressure you can interupt it with 11f2 Slam for a full combo. Then he will have to respect her with his pressure and it becomes a guessing game from there leaving you both in a neutral position to make the right read.

Hmm, maybe I try soul crush too early. I'll definitely try waiting longer before I use it. As for the interrupt, when should I interrupt with 11f2? Sorry, I'm still somewhat learning all this technical fighting game stuff, but I'm willing to learn it all lol.

 

[Shamwow0w0w]

After f23breath, if you go for 11f2 and he goes for f23 on the same frame after the first breath you will hit Superman out of it. This will condition him into baiting 11f2 which you can counter bait lol. That match up is all about who makes the right reads. Although Superman has more options than Raven after a blocked f23breath she has the tools to deal with most of his options.

 

[Sami]

Both, actually, but I'm having more trouble with zoning Superman. I probably shouldn't because Raven is supposedly so amazing as an anti-zoner but I still get beat. I don't know what to do when he's fullscreen and he jump and beams me. df2 doesn't work fullscreen obviously and doesn't work even if he's not fullscreen because he's so high up. I could try going in to demon stance and get hit but then teleport is so expected. Is there something you would suggest? I am probably missing something cause I haven't spent much time in practice mode. I generally just have most of my experience from online play.

Jump and demon stance over the beam. Even if you're unable to catch him with a follow-up move, you've now shut down all of his ranged zoning just by being in demon stance as you can punish it all.

I *think* (it's been a while since I tested it) that if you activate the trait near the start of the jump you'll still be over the beam but will land almost instantly, giving you enough time for a full screen MB pull into combo. You might be able to get a teleport off instead, but again it's been a while since I've fought a Superman (or any human actually!).

 

[kabelfritz]

ok ive tried like 200 times and lost like 185. black adam is unwinnable and raven is a fish. if you dont think so, show me the black adam you play. turtle black adam is beyond bad.

 

[Sprint]

Framedata vs Doomsday armor.
- Anything -1 or better allows for a 100% safe d1 followup (1f timing at -1).
- Anything -5 or better allows for a d1 followup that doomsday can only interrupt with his own d1.
- Anything -7 or better is safe on block.

WARNING: NEVER INPUT F22.
The game removes 10 frames of recovery from f2 on hit.
For some reason this does not happen if you input it as f22.
The result is that armored Doomsday cannot punish f2 on hit, but he CAN punish f22 on hit.

Move      Hit Block
1          +3  +1
2         -11   0
3          -3  -1
b1         +4  -3
b2        -10  +3
b3         -1 +11
f1          0  +3
f2         -5  -1
f22       -15  -1 (seriously! don't press it twice!)
f3          0  +6
d1         -1  -1
d2         -6  -5
d3        -15  -7
Throw      -8  -8
df2       -32 -20
db2       -22 -10
df1       -16 -14
DS~db2    -18  -6
DS~df1    -12   0
DS~df1~MB  -6 +19
Super      KD  -9
11         -6  -1
11f2      -13   0
11b2      -18  -2
113       -10  -3
f13       -12  +3
b12       -13  -5
b123      -22  -5
22        -12  -1
223       -16   6
b23       -12  -1
f222       -7   0
f2233     -17  -2
f22u1      -8  -5

Blockstun is the same as normal, but I've included it for reference (taken from the official framedata with a couple of exceptions... I don't trust it to be correct, but I don't know enough about how the game engine handles reversals from blockstun to confidently measure it myself yet.)

 

[KamikazeJD]

Reflect supermans heat vision. That shit is clutch. Doomsday is stupid right now. I haven't fought a good black adam, but boy have I fought and been blown up by mediocre to terrible deathstrokes.. Lord have mercy..
I stated the obvious here, why? Because I am obviously frustrated. Lol maaaaan

 

[TrulyAmiracle]

With Deathstroke one thing to keep in mind is that if you're in range to soul crush any whiffed or block guns are punishable by it. The other thing is that if you're not in range (fullscreen) reflect works on all of his guns (not sure about the machinegun).
Another option is to just go to Demon stance and pillar him all day, if you do a pillar and it trades you can still get db2 to combo i think. db2 if you think he'll shoot guns, you'll eat the gun's damage but you'll pull them in for a full combo with no meter cost.
Oh and punish swordflip/spin HARD so they never even dare to try it again. go fff2 into for sword flip and d1 xx singularity MB for swordspin into whatever combo you like.


With Black adam, its pretty lame that soul crush doesnt catch his divekicks even if its active when he's diving at you, some weird animation happens like he just "escapes" the hitstun and flies through anyway. Stay in a range where you can soul crush otherwise he'll pretty much outzone you as his tools go fullscreen and track where yours do not.
In this range he can divekick you if he reads a fireball/soul crush but you can neutral jump and land with a j2 into combo if he tries to divekick.. its a really odd matchup and you need to be patient.
Also dont forget that this dude has no lows, his only lows are d3 (just 1 hit, minimal damage) the lightning special (df2? you can block it on reaction, and he cant combo off of it, even the MB version) and the weird mine thing that he sets up (havent seen anyone utilize it properly yet). Every other string has an overhead in it and they all lead to painful combos so yeah just block high up-close. On wake-up watch out for his b2 overhead as it can go to 50%+ BnB and alot of Bladams love doing that right now coz people keep falling for it.
His trait is unblockable but it does NOT put you in any hitstun unless you're already getting hit, its really weird, just block and take the 12% damage instead of eating a 50% combo. Adam players will usually go ham when they have the orbs out so a db2/df2 will usually catch them out of whatever theyre trying to do, just make sure there's some space between you 2 so that the orbs dont hit you in the db2/df2 startup.
the Cloud thingy is punishable by soul crush (or a combo if you're close enough), idk about the low lightning but i think its safe.
I havent tested it yet but f1 should be able to punish the divekicks.

Been playing too much hawkgirl lol. I'll mess around with some stuff tomorrow and see what I can find.

 

[Enigma]

Yeah I've been having hard time with Black Adam. They just walk back and spam dive kicks from anywhere on the screen and soul crush doesn't seem to help much in this situation. Is it possible to punish the dive kicks with Raven? lol with me they just dash back or poke me so I've never been able to punish it myself but it might be because of the lag.

 

[JaredL]

Yeah I've been having hard time with Black Adam. They just walk back and spam dive kicks from anywhere on the screen and soul crush doesn't seem to help much in this situation. Is it possible to punish the dive kicks with Raven? lol with me they just dash back or poke me so I've never been able to punish it myself but it might be because of the lag.

Use your trait. Get at him.

Black adam isn't amazing up close.

 

[Sami]

WARNING: NEVER INPUT F22.
The game removes 10 frames of recovery from f2 on hit.
For some reason this does not happen if you input it as f22.
The result is that armored Doomsday cannot punish f2 on hit, but he CAN punish f22 on hit.

Move      Hit Block
f2        -5  -1
f22      -15  -1 (seriously! don't press it twice!)

Blockstun is the same as normal, but I've included it for reference (taken from the official framedata with a couple of exceptions... I don't trust it to be correct, but I don't know enough about how the game engine handles reversals from blockstun to confidently measure it myself yet.)

Feel dirty for doing this, but colt would you mind commenting on this?

f2 and f22 both do the same number of hits for the same damage. For all intents and purposes, f22 is the same as f2. The only time the extra 2 needs to be input is for follow-up combos (f222, f2233), where even then that second 2 doesn't add any hits.

f2: 2 hits
f22: 2 hits
f222: 3 hits
f2233: 4 hits

However, inputting f22 gives far reduced recovery on hit, even though it is basically the same move as f2. By design to punish button mashing or legitimate bug?

Also, if the f222 and f2233 combos could be changed into f22 and f233 respectively to actually match the hits per move, that would be great


If you need a test setup for this, record Raven doing f2 then holding down, and then f22 and then holding down against Lex, with Lex in the corner. Use Lex's D3 (12f start-up) after the hits. D3 will be blocked after f2, but not f22.