Strategy No armour? Thats bull.

[zee]

Rob, I have the utmost respect for you and your words, so I'd like your thoughts on how differently your ECT3 matches against LI Joe's Ermac could've played out. Those matches went exactly how EVERY Sub-Zero vs Ermac match goes.

Sub-Zero primarily has to get lucky to get in (hey he didn't force push right now), which is when he gets a chance to do 20some % damage, then the "getting in" starts all over again.

Is it not an OP move when the opponent has you in constant fear of letting go of block? In fear of baby step dash-blocking all over again from the edge of the screen? A move should not have that kind of command upon a player in a match, which is exactly what Force Push does against non-teleporters who do not have quick armored specials.

Sub vs a good Ermac is not an uphill battle, it's a hopeless throw of dice on Sub's behalf. Please let me know what you could've done differently to change the outcome of those matches.

I won't bring up Skarlet.

 

[salvificblood]

Armour on ex slide doesn't sound like the worst idea, and purely projectile armour for ex freeze doesn't sound overpowered either. Both would help with Sub's tougher matchups without turning them in his favour.

Isn't that what NRS did for Johnny Cage?

Maybe there is a balancing issue here, I don't know. It's a good discussion though.

 

[Tremloc]

Keep "thinking" what? Tom has mentioned that he doesn't want to get stuck in a match-up situation at EVO if he played as Sub. He's said this more than once - on stream. This is why he will be using Kung Lao in the tournament that he "really wants to win". What's your issue with that?

That's unfortunate because on stream he's also mentioned - repeatedly - that you just have to work through your bad matchups. If he truly switches to KL because of match-up issues I'll be saddened.

 

[salvificblood]

That's unfortunate because on stream he's also mentioned - repeatedly - that you just have to work through your bad matchups. If he truly switches to KL because of match-up issues I'll be saddened.

It's only for EVO but it does show that Sub-Zero is having more trouble than some of the other S tier characters at this point. To be honest, I can't see it getting any better after EVO because there's always Skarlet's knives, Kung lao's low hat strings, Raiden's traps etc. Sub-Zero just doesn't have any broken, or borderline broken, stuff when there are characters around who do have tech that's pretty damn close to it.

Edit: Sub's clone is NOT an armoured move, lol. It's a spacing tool/trap. It just doesn't operate in the same way an armoured move does.

 

[Lyuben]

It's only for EVO but it does show that Sub-Zero is having more trouble than some of the other S tier characters at this point. To be honest, I can't see it getting any better after EVO because there's always Skarlet's knives, Kung lao's low hat strings, Raiden's traps etc. Sub-Zero just doesn't have any broken, or borderline broken, stuff when there are characters around who do have tech that's pretty damn close to it.

His charged up unblockable cancel can be a bit broken. But thats just a 50/50

 

[GERNBURGS]

I think Sub-Zero is fine the way he is, he's already a very strong character. I think Sub-Zero players forget how good Subs mix-up game is. He has a ton of really good overhead attacks relative to the rest of the cast, and he has a very fast, safe sweep. His B+1, 2 combos are automatic 50-50 situations every time.

The Ice Clone is an extremely strong zoning tool, allowing you to really pin people down in certain situations, especially keeping them pinned in the corner. Sub Zero can zone quite well, it's just not in the same exact way as Sindel might do it.

 

[THTB]

You cant jump over Kung Lao because of that spin. Or Baraka, but his spin sucks. And it could just be projectile armour anyway.

He'd be able to reaction EX freeze a projectile with zero risk.

 

[salvificblood]

His charged up unblockable cancel can be a bit broken. But thats just a 50/50

Yeah, and they have to be in a frozen state for the 50/50 to even come into it. You also miss out on damage if your opponent guesses correctly, so I haven't even seen the use in it so far since, going by odds, my opponent will guess right half the time and I'll get like... 10% when they guess right? and about 7% plus 35% when they guess wrong, maybe more if they guess incorrectly a couple of times in a row and give me a couple of free 22, freezes before I actually hit them with the force claws, but for the most part, I have to add up 42% and 10% which is 52% and then compare that with two full b&b combos which is 60%.

The reset's a good mindgame but I'll take my damage or their meter every time.

The picture changes a bit if you have xray due to the ridiculous damage scaling.

He'd be able to reaction EX freeze a projectile with zero risk.

That would be a problem. Could you give it armour as it advances, somewhat similar to Sub's xray? That way you'd still have to throw the ex freeze early and half in anticipation...

 

[Tremloc]

It's only for EVO but it does show that Sub-Zero is having more trouble than some of the other S tier characters at this point.

The "only for EVO" part is the biggest issue. That's saying sub isn't good enough to compete for first place in the largest tournaments.

 

[salvificblood]

The "only for EVO" part is the biggest issue. That's saying sub isn't good enough to compete for first place in the largest tournaments.

You have to remember, as good as Tom Brady is, he isn't Sub-Zero. I am sure others will be using Sub at EVO.

I did point out the decision demonstrates Sub is having a tougher time than other S tier characters in certain matchups right now. Personally, I think Tom could win EVO with Sub-Zero as he could have won the CEO final with Sub had he stuck with him and worked out the Reptile problem. I still don't think Reptile is a bad matchup for Sub, players just sometimes get good reads on you and you stop doing what you need to do to win. Maybe Tom feels the same way but feels more comfortable with Kung lao for EVO because of the matchups he's likely to face. Maybe he feels he needs to work on his tougher matchups with Sub but doesn't feel confident he'll have worked them out 100% with Sub before EVO, etc, etc.

That's why I can understand him changing to Kung Lao without it necessarily being a reflection that Sub's yesterday's man.

 

[Tremloc]

You have to remember, as good as Tom Brady is, he isn't Sub-Zero. I am sure others will be using Sub at EVO.

I did point out the decision demonstrates Sub is having a tougher time than other S tier characters in certain matchups right now. Personally, I think Tom could win EVO with Sub-Zero as he could have won the CEO final with Sub had he stuck with him and worked out the Reptile problem. I still don't think Reptile is a bad matchup for Sub, players just sometimes get good reads on you and you stop doing what you need to do to win. Maybe Tom feels the same way but feels more comfortable with Kung lao for EVO because of the matchups he's likely to face. Maybe he feels he needs to work on his tougher matchups with Sub but doesn't feel confident he'll have worked them out 100% with Sub before EVO, etc, etc.

That's why I can understand him changing to Kung Lao without it necessarily being a reflection that Sub's yesterday's man.

Yeah I understand him switching, it's just slightly discouraging when arguably the best sub-zero player switches to a different character because he doesn't feel he can win the tournament with him (if, in fact, that is true). However, I'm not going to stop playing sub just because a top-player uses him less. I have plenty of other inspiration from Dark Rob and the like.

I agree that he could have won CEO by sticking with Sub.

 

[Dark_Rob]

Rob, I have the utmost respect for you and your words, so I'd like your thoughts on how differently your ECT3 matches against LI Joe's Ermac could've played out. Those matches went exactly how EVERY Sub-Zero vs Ermac match goes.

Sub-Zero primarily has to get lucky to get in (hey he didn't force push right now), which is when he gets a chance to do 20some % damage, then the "getting in" starts all over again.

Is it not an OP move when the opponent has you in constant fear of letting go of block? In fear of baby step dash-blocking all over again from the edge of the screen? A move should not have that kind of command upon a player in a match, which is exactly what Force Push does against non-teleporters who do not have quick armored specials.

Sub vs a good Ermac is not an uphill battle, it's a hopeless throw of dice on Sub's behalf. Please let me know what you could've done differently to change the outcome of those matches.

I won't bring up Skarlet.

I dont understand what Ermacs TKP has to do with this thread, but Il respond to your post anyway since its a good example of something Im always talking about.
You bring up my match with LI Joe at ECT3. Hands down, he beat me. I wont argue either that I think Ermac is one of Subzero's harder matches. BUT in your entire post it is basically Ermac this and Ermac that, never once acknowledging what a beast the man behind the controller is. LI Joe is insanely good. Hes been super talented at MK in general for way way longer than I have. There is no shame in losing to him. I lost to LI Joe, not to Ermac. Hes just better than I am. There are lots of players better than me, the only way to get better is to keep playing them.

 

[zee]

^ Thank you. The reference was that an armored Ex-Slide would make the aggressor respect this option, thus allowing Sub to approach a little more confidently. Ermac and Skarlet are well known to be some of his worst match-ups at this point.

 

[Dark_Rob]

^ Thank you. The reference was that an armored Ex-Slide would make the aggressor respect this option, thus allowing Sub to approach a little more confidently. Ermac and Skarlet are well known to be some of his worst match-ups at this point.

For sure, Ermac is a difficult matchup, and Skarlet is nigh on impossible......but what about all his other matchups? You give him armor on his EX slide and he will shut down all projectiles from nearly full screen with one bar of meter in stock. Cyrax nets? punished. Kabal's fireballs? Kitana's fans? Reptiles forceballs? All would be meaningless once Sub had only 1 bar of meter. And dont forget about the ice clone>EX slide trap. You hit that and you get a free combo now. And it would be alot easier to hit if he had armor on his EX slide, to easy actually.
You have to think about the whole picture with something like this, not just how it affects Subs bad matches but how it affects all his other even and advantage matches.

 

[salvificblood]

For sure, Ermac is a difficult matchup, and Skarlet is nigh on impossible......but what about all his other matchups? You give him armor on his EX slide and he will shut down all projectiles from nearly full screen with one bar of meter in stock. Cyrax nets? punished. Kabal's fireballs? Kitana's fans? Reptiles forceballs? All would be meaningless once Sub had only 1 bar of meter. And dont forget about the ice clone>EX slide trap. You hit that and you get a free combo now. And it would be alot easier to hit if he had armor on his EX slide, to easy actually.
You have to think about the whole picture with something like this, not just how it affects Subs bad matches but how it affects all his other even and advantage matches.

To be honest, Reptile can't really throw forceballs out carelessly, anyway, because you just ex freeze him and you could say all the same things about Cage's ex shadow kick. I am not saying it's right to give Sub armour on his ex slide, but still...

 

[Mechacide]

This is an interesting thread. I disagree with Sub getting armour on EX Ice, but agree with armour on EX Slide. However, I'd prefer if they just took armour away from other characters that didn't have it in the first place (JC, NW, etc.)

The trouble is that Sub was top-tier, but after other characters got buffed, and Sub got nerfed, he's become lower top to mid (I actually think he's mid now). It was subtle, too, I didn't even really realise until recently. JC used to be a really good match-up for Sub, but now you can't do anything if JC has a bar of meter. If you rush him down, he'll just destroy you because that's where JC excels, and if you try to zone he'll just EX Shadow Kick your ass.

The UK doesn't seem to have received the last Hot"fix" yet, so I can't be certain how bad Sub's Slide is now, but if it's as bad as I think, it means that you can't really ever use it to end combos unless you want to lose oki/clone setups. This means that Sub's combo-dmg is now nerfed to around 22-26%, as if it wasn't already nerfed enough. Think about the Sub/Kitana match-up: It was already a bad match-up for Sub. It wasn't abysmal, but it was bad. Now, however, it really does seem pretty abysmal, if only because of the huge difference in combo-dmg. Kitana can keep Sub out pretty well, but she can also beat him inside with her range, and when she lands one of those hits, she's taking half your life. If Sub finally manages to get in, and land a hit, he's getting 22-26% And let's not forget that the oki means little, seen as she can Squaredash out of there. Yeah, you can Slide her to punish it, but now that puts you at disadvantage (from what I understand) and you're worse off for it.

My point is, other characters have been given big buffs (ones they didn't need), and Sub has only gotten nerfs, and has been left behind. I don't mind it this way, I like a solid mid-tier character, but gaining armour on EX Slide wouldn't make Sub OP or anything, it would just keep him competitive. If they don't wanna do that, I think they should just increase his combo-dmg again. I'm also completely on-board with getting rid of the useless Ice Puddle and giving him Ice Shower. I don't see how Ice Shower would be broken, it would just force zoners to move. Think of it like an Up-Skull/Missile or Bomb or Blackhole. I'd also be happy for them to make Ice Puddle faster but blockable, but only low-blockable.

TL;DR: Sub isn't as good as he used to be, and certain buffs wouldn't make him broken or OP.

 

[Kwon]

A buff to EX-Slide i can very much agree with, but apparently they nerfed the Slide recently.

 

[Tom Brady]

sub-zero is not mid tier nor does he need armor. hes top tier, he just takes work to play him to that level.

know what? im going to do a breadycast today for all us sub players...

 

[Kwon]

Much appreciated Tom!

 

[Lyuben]

sub-zero is not mid tier nor does he need armor. hes top tier, he just takes work to play him to that level.

know what? im going to do a breadycast today for all us sub players...

Who's us Lao?

 

[ChopChop Ninja]

People just want armor now because some other characters got it. Keeping up with the Joneses

 

[Lord Beef]

Who's us Lao?

Wow.

-b_s- :headbang:

 

[Tremloc]

Lyuben your avatar is simply awesome. <3

 

[Red]

my input/opinion on all of this..

i think sub is fine the way he is...
the only thing i would change of subzero... is if it were possible to go back in time when NRS was making the game and making subzero. I would have brought back subzero's Ice shower special..
I miss that special very much.

but as far as sub having a bad matchup against a turtle/range character. Well tought pitty.. do you need a tissue?

every character has some sort of bad matchup with another character. its either your lack of dedication to your character that you have not found the way to overcome his bad matchups. ...

or its your lack of experience to where you could not become victorious in a bad matchup.

another suggestion... get good with every character. reasons why.. well so you know what is the basic gameplan of each character.

and .... in the case you feel you are entering a bad matchup and do not feel confident to become victorious.. SWITCH CHARACTERS.

in tournament play you tend to learn of some of your enemies.. whether its local or national tournaments .. if your a constant competitor.. study your opponents when they play..

you will see a weakness in which they may have trouble playing against a certain character...

......


my first fighting game tournament i entered was around a 3 weeks ago. i played and after the tournament i was satisfied with how i performed.. but i also knew what I needed to work on.

from what I saw it was apart of both lack of experience and lack of knowledge of all characters in which, led me to my defeat i believe, which overall is lack of preparation

if your really serious about winning... you will do the homework and know whether your weaker some characters than other

since the tournament i played in i have switched a bit of my game up.. and have broaden to playing with around 4 characters now as a main,

but i still play with my original main.. but if i do not feel confident of my main.. i sitll am confident on others..

 

[Red]

Lyuben your avatar is simply awesome. <3

i have the best avatar