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Meter use with Cyber Sub.

Lyuben

Sinestro's might!
How do you guys use meter with Cyber Sub? To me he seems like one of those characters where using meter on special moves is kinda wasteful.

Ex bombs is ok but nullified if they teleport. Ex Teleport is hardly useful. Ex slide only adds a few % and is useful for very situational bomb traps. Ex divekick is actually quite good, adds a lot of damage and an overhead. Ex parry is good but predicting a parry right is hard so it often will be wasted. Ex ice ball seems good but Cyber Sub does not strike me for the projectile war trader.

So that leaves breaker and X-Ray. That is really all I use my meter on save for the odd ex divekick.

Do you more advanced Cyber Sub players have better uses of meter for him? Or is that really it with him?
 

CaliJokerstyle

Dies A Lot
Breaker is big for CSZ, really the only time i use EX is occaisionall ice ball for the speed to catch in combos. He really does not need EX moves you can use dive kick but its nice to have meter for breakers
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
33 ex freeze is a must

bomb traps are a must

I never ever use his ex slide, ex teleport, or ex dive.

thats just how i play with him. nothing sexier than throwing ex bombs, opponent jumps out and you jk, dive kick into a bomb freeze into combo.

Also while in the corner on wakeup ill do ex parry on wakeup to pit my opponent in the corner for a 48% combo punish
 

RampaginDragon

Loses to uppercuts
The only meter i use with him is breaker/X-ray. and if they are blocking high then 33, Enhanced ice ball because regualer doesnt hit then get a 32 percent combo off.
 

RampaginDragon

Loses to uppercuts
33 ex freeze is a must

bomb traps are a must

I never ever use his ex slide, ex teleport, or ex dive.

thats just how i play with him. nothing sexier than throwing ex bombs, opponent jumps out and you jk, dive kick into a bomb freeze into combo.

Also while in the corner on wakeup ill do ex parry on wakeup to pit my opponent in the corner for a 48% combo punish
The most i can get out of corner is 41% whats your combo?
 

Piggy

City Slicker
The most i can get out of corner is 41% whats your combo?
I get 51%-54% in corner. I mostly use my meter either for xray when I know I have the upper hand, or when I know they will sit and zone. Ex bomb is very useful against subbies. They get so pissed off. I love the tears
 
I use EX dive kicks when I need damage in a slower-paced match (i.e. Sub-Zero or Ermac), but I only use it when it's guaranteed (i.e. jumping over a projectile). Outside of that, I don't use any EX specials, save for the rare EX teleport when I get sick of people crossing me up or the hit-confirmed 33~EX freeze into 40% combo.

X-Ray is a big part of my game. Cyber Sub can do some very easy X-Ray combos that cross 50% midscreen. I use breakers a lot less than most people do, but that's probably because I play pretty good defense.
 

Altaire

Noob
The big problem with Cyber Sub's X-ray combos is that he hardly gets anything for it. Consider that his midscreen BnB is 40% without a jump-in punch (43% with), and 50% really doesn't seem like it's worth the meter. He can also get a no-meter 47% combo in the corner, where the best I've seen from a practical X-ray combo is 54%. The only time I suggest using his X-ray in combos is if you really need to close out a match or you really need the unbreakable damage.

Also, using breakers has nothing to do with defense. No matter what, your opponent is going to get some damage worth breaking in a hard matchup, and on top of that, Cyber Subs really isn't strong on the defense. He can control space by alternating bombs/ice balls/dive kicks, but he can't really "zone" so much as just get you off your spot with it. He's every bit as aggressive as Cage or Kung Lao, he's just more reliant on space control than they are. If you play more defensively, Sub Zero is probably a better fit for you.

33 ex freeze is a must

bomb traps are a must

I never ever use his ex slide, ex teleport, or ex dive.

thats just how i play with him. nothing sexier than throwing ex bombs, opponent jumps out and you jk, dive kick into a bomb freeze into combo.

Also while in the corner on wakeup ill do ex parry on wakeup to pit my opponent in the corner for a 48% combo punish
Pig knows what the fuck is up. Here I thought I was the only one who used 3 3 EX freeze. One question though: How do you get 48% off an EX parry in the corner? I can rack up 47% on my corner combo, but that's by comboing off jump in punch 2 1 freeze.

Personally, I save most of my meter for the EX divekick, just because it's easily accessible and really hurts. Cyber Subs has the privilege of being a character who has a lot of useful EX attacks without being anywhere near meter-dependent. Where some characters are dead in the water without proper meter use, it doesn't really hurt Cyber Sub's game if he doesn't have access to EX moves. This also means that you can spend more meter on breakers if you like to play more cautiously.

To give my breakdown of what to use where and why:

EX divekick fucking hurts. That's really the only reason to use it, but it's definitely reason enough. It can be a guaranteed punish with a the proper setup, and at 18%, it's nothing to laugh at. I find most of my meter goes here.

- EX parry is a great way to get out of pressure and get a full combo punish while you're at it, but it's risky. Generally, you'll only want to use this if you've been using your parry sparingly. If you start to abuse it and your opponent keeps running into it, he's going to learn to respect it, and so he'll try to bait it out or resort to moves that can't be parried. There are actually a lot of contact specials that can't be parried for whatever reason , i.e. Sektor's uppercut and Nightwolf's hatchet. If the attack is particularly integral to that character's movelist (Nightwolf's hatchet certainly is), you're going to be at a much greater risk of being opened up by attacks you can't parry, so this is largely matchup-specific. In either case, this is one of the best tools in Cyber Sub's arsenal, just make sure you use discretion.

- EX freeze is functionally identical to Sub Zero's, but Cyber Subs needs it a hell of a lot more than Subs does. Cyber Sub's ice blast has a longer startup time and much slower travel time, making it harder to land from fullscreen distance. If you're getting outzoned, good use of EX freeze can get you in there. Also, as Pig stated, you can only freeze someone off a 3 3 with the EX freeze; normal freeze is too slow. This applies to several other normal strings where the freeze is too slow to connect while they're in hitstun, though I find this is only useful with 3 3, as it's quick, safe and hit confirmable (albeit with certain difficulty).

- EX bomb is just a guaranteed way to get your opponent off his spot, and if you have the right setup for it, you can pin your opponent on a bomb when they try to get out. I think this is a great tool, but treat it like Sektor's homing missile: Don't throw it out there unless you're sure you can make it count. If you can't, you wasted the meter for nothing. Also note that if you really need guaranteed damage, you can follow EX bomb with EX freeze, which is completely inescapable under most circumstances (I think a fast teleport or armor move might be able to stuff it). In general, I think you should stick to throwing out bombs just to get your opponent off his spot, and only throw the EX bomb when that stops being effective. If it ain't broke, don't fix it. Also remember that throwing out a mid/far bomb after knocking your opponent down (wherever it's safe to do so) and following with an ice ball is often times good Oki, just make sure you can't be punished for it.

- EX teleport is... Alright. I'm really not a fan of this, because as far as I'm concerned, Cyber Sub's teleport exists for the same reason as Cyrax's: It's there to get you in once you freeze/net your opponent from a distance. If you really need this to get out of pressure, feel free to use it, but I believe his meter is better spent elsewhere.

- EX slide is useful for the same reason as Sub Zero's: It goes through projectiles on wakeup and it'll knock your opponent into the corner, if you need it. This is really the only time you should be using it.

- His X-ray is largely situational, as far as I'm concerned. I tend not to use it because EX divekick is functionally identical and does half the damage for one bar, but the X-ray is more advantageous in certain matchups. Because the X-ray has armor, it's really useful in any matchup where your opponent can control space in the air or otherwise stuff the divekick (Noob's upshadow, Ermac's telepush, Sub Zero's clone, and so on). Kung Lao can be a really rough matchup for Cyber Subs because he can easily spin the divekick on reaction, but this shit will make him think twice about trying it.

Hope that helps.
 

Lyuben

Sinestro's might!
Thanks altaire. Really helps.

I have only recently picked Cyber Sub up but am loving is pressure and mix up games. And I swear, PARRY IS SO FUN against nightwolf, I dont know why.

Anyway: One more question while im here. What is his best x-ray combo? I have a 48% but I have seen you guys say you have higher so I want to know how you get it. I do jip21 freeze, jip, b32 x-ray.

And what are his corner combos? I just tend to do lots of 3,4's.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
Thanks Altaire

Ill go in practice mode today and remember my 48% corner combo. Been a hot minute since ive really used him, focused on Mileena for tournaments but ill go back with him

Also 2,1 2,1 2,1 2,1 2,1 All day is very very useful pressure tool then mixup with 2,1 parry or 2,1 ex parry or even better and safer is 2, 1 1+2 for further damage.

Please try this one everyone you play today and when you hit it right you'll smile and kiss c sub
 

Lyuben

Sinestro's might!
I use 2,1 to do throw mix ups. I condition them usually that I throw after the 2nd or 3rd iteration of 2,1 so that when they try to tech an incoming throw I either carry on doing a 2,1 and freeze them on reaction or just do the 2+1 and launch them.
 

Piggy

City Slicker
I usually charge at the opponent and use either 332, 34, or B321. Best strategy against alot of characters is rushdown with said combos and use ice parry because alot of people love wake up attacks. You wouldn't believe how many kung laos I beat daily because they won't learn to not spin attack on wake up when I rushdown with my ice parry.

My thoughts are that CSZ doesn't have alot of combos so use his short bursts of small combos since he has some of the best mix ups.
 

Error

DF2+R2
Do any of his EX attacks have armor? A couple of nights ago I screwed myself over thinking EX Divekick had armor and went straight into an ice clone.
 

Altaire

Noob
I usually charge at the opponent and use either 332, 34, or B321. Best strategy against alot of characters is rushdown with said combos and use ice parry because alot of people love wake up attacks. You wouldn't believe how many kung laos I beat daily because they won't learn to not spin attack on wake up when I rushdown with my ice parry.

My thoughts are that CSZ doesn't have alot of combos so use his short bursts of small combos since he has some of the best mix ups.
...What? Cyber Subs has a 40% midscreen BnB, which is the only full combo he should ever use. 3 3 2 and 3 4 stops being a good 50/50 when your opponent realizes how easy it is to fuzzy guard. B3 2 1 is unsafe on block, so that should be used sparingly as well. 3 3 2 and 2 1 are Cyber Sub's only reliable openers, and 2 1 should be how you get in most of the time. As Pig already stated, 2 1 is a great block string, and it's hit confirmable into a freeze. The absolute safest way to use it, however, is to hit confirm into 2 1 1+2. You can actually do this on reaction if you see your opponent try to get out; following continued pressure with 2 1, you can hit confirm into the 1+2 as soon as you see your opponent let go of block, then follow the launcher with U4 slide. The beauty of this is that even IF you guess wrong and 2 1 1+2 is blocked, you can immediately jump back and do a near divekick; if they let go of block, you'll land this 100% of the time. If they try to jump out, you can uppercut them, which is the only part of this string you have to guess on and still makes for a relatively safe 50/50. There are just so many safe ways out of 2 1 pressure that you'd have to be stupid not to use it.


Also, since it's been asked:

2 1 freeze, jump in punch 2 1 1+2, U4 slide - 40%

This is your go-to combo with Cyber Subs. It's the highest meterless damage he can rack up from midscreen, it's hit confirmable off 2 1, and it has plenty of knockback to force your opponent towards a corner. You can end with U4 bomb as well, but if your opponent uses a delayed wakeup, the bomb will miss; I've seen a couple people do this, but I wouldn't recommend it.

His corner combos:

2 1 freeze, jump-in punch 2 1 1+2, NJP, standing 4, 3 4 3 3 slide - 44%

This is the combo that's 47% off a jump-in punch. I came up with this one on my own, and it's still the combo I'm most comfortable with. There are other ways to combo off this that involve doing 2 1 1+2 twice in a row, but it doesn't feel as fluid to me; you have to back dash and delay to connect with it, whereas this combo is much more straightforward. The timing IS a little strict near the end, but once you're used to it, it's pretty easy to land. The cue that I use is to do the standing four such that my heel just barely catches the back of their head as they fall. If I'm playing online and I'm afraid of dropping it in lag, I'll tap the 3 3 at the end three or four times, since you can only do a maximum of two and once I have visual confirmation that the two hits came out, I can finish with the slide. Worst case scenario, just leave out the 3 3, as it only adds another 2% anyhow. I do it because I can, because it's a little extra damage, and because it looks neat.

My corner X-ray:

2 1 freeze, jump-in punch 2 1 1+2, 2 1 1+2, jumpkick X-ray - 52%

This one is 54% off a jump-in punch. I COULD be wrong on the exact notation here, since I never use this in a real match situation, so just let me know if I got the combo wrong. I can remember trying a few different combos before I found one I was satisfied with, so I may have gotten this mixed up.

And no, Cyber Subs doesn't have any attacks with armor, other than his X-ray. I believe EX divekick had armor in the original build, but I think the first hotfix removed that. I could be remembering this wrong.
 

Lyuben

Sinestro's might!
Does anyone have any tips on how to land the u4 and slide after the 2,1 1+2? I either wiff it, get one hit, get a full hit with no slide, or have a full hit with slide which does not hit them and just carries on down.

I only landed it once so it is possible but how do I time it?
 

Altaire

Noob
The easiest way to land U4 slide is to do the U4, wait a moment and then do the slide. You CAN do it all in one fluid motion, but it's a lot easier to just wait until you see the U4 start to come out, and then slide. This is obviously a lot simpler in a lag-free environment, but if you practice it enough offline, you can still get a feel for the input spacing and apply it online.
 

spongebob

ಠ__ಠ
The easiest way to land U4 slide is to do the U4, wait a moment and then do the slide. You CAN do it all in one fluid motion, but it's a lot easier to just wait until you see the U4 start to come out, and then slide. This is obviously a lot simpler in a lag-free environment, but if you practice it enough offline, you can still get a feel for the input spacing and apply it online.
How would this help? The problem with connecting U4 into slide isn't the timing between the U4 and slide its the timing of the U4. Best way imo is to dash immediately a bit before you actually see 21 1+2 end then do U4 immediately its not exactly hard to link slide. Tbh the main way I mess it up is U4 becoming a normal 4 lol. You can also do U4 into bomb. People that can do the slide still do this occasionaly so if your not getting the slide then you can still add the bomb each time for pressure.
 

Altaire

Noob
Why wouldn't it help? The problem most people have is that they try to do all the directional inputs too quickly and mess it up, so it's easier to just dash into the U4, wait a moment and then do the slide.

I don't really know what to tell you if you have issue with landing the dash into U4 on its own, it's pretty straightforward to me.
 

spongebob

ಠ__ಠ
Why wouldn't it help? The problem most people have is that they try to do all the directional inputs too quickly and mess it up, so it's easier to just dash into the U4, wait a moment and then do the slide.

I don't really know what to tell you if you have issue with landing the dash into U4 on its own, it's pretty straightforward to me.
Theres only one speed you can link U4 into slide delaying it at all doesn't do anything. I've never heard to people messing up the input they have to do it slower, people have trouble because U4 connects and then the slide whiffs.

Its not just a dash into U4, if you do U4 right at the end of the dash then the slide won't connect, which is why I recommended inputting the dashing before the 1+2 animation ends then doing U4 immediately.
 
It's really amazing how many times this gets asked. I think I've tried to explain how to execute this in at least 10 different posts.
 

Piggy

City Slicker
Altaire, I actually do the 52% combo in corners all the time. In fact when someone sees that I usually get rage quitters.
 
Landing the U4~Slide can be tricky a first. You have to do about a half dash and then U4~Slide. The U4~Slide has to come out earlier than you think for both hits to land. Its just one of those moves where you have to practice it by forcing yourself to hit the button before you actually think you should hit the button to figure out the timing. Anyway, hope this helps. Also im glad to hear some input about the U~4 bomb ending...I was wondering about that myself but never really got a good chance to check it out against other players.
 

Crathen

Death is my business
That's the best midscreen X ray combo to my knowledge , as for Xray corner combo i'll post mine ( wich you can find in the Usedforglue's CSZ Guide thread but beware that high level players will not easily get caught by a jumping punch in the corner ):

Jip , 21 freeze , jip , 21 1+2 , Njp , 21 1+2 , jump back kick , Xray for an easy 57 %

Next i'll give a corner bomb setup and the opponent has to wakeup attack or he will get caught , given the best possible combo:

jip , 21 freeze , jip , 21 1+2 , Njp , 21 1+2 , 34 , backdash close bomb

Now your opponent has to either Wakeup ( wich can be punished depending on the character ) or you can:

dash in 34 , 21 1+2 , jump back kick , X ray ( still have to research the best damage i can get off that , try adding a 1 freeze after the 21 1+2 for *maybe* better damage )

But on topic , i feel Csz meter has to go mainly for Breakers , the situational Iceblast ( for trades , bombs setups and 33 Iceblast ) and rarely for EX bombs ( especially when your opponent is zoning you from fullscreen ) , the X ray is really situational and with the damage Csz can get wth his powerfull bomb setups it's just not worth it imo