General/Other - Kotal Kahn Kotal Kahn General Discussion

[TheRealOnlyGoonie]

KK is way better than jason idk what you guys are talking about.

 

[SepticFir8]

War God is probably the best variation for Grandmaster Sub, but don't get discouraged if you play against Subzeros online. The delay makes it alot harder than it should be. Still a pretty hard match, but manageable.

I guess thats a big part of my problem. Nonetheless, I did recently play against a Grandmaster Sub, with an 8 percent chance of winning, and picked Sun God Kotal.

I literally lost because in the third round he was able to hide behind ice clones and I couldn't get past.

War God's Ground Pound removes that option.

 

[NHDR]

Do you guys think I'm unreasonable in wanting Kotal's overhead sword MB to be safe on block, like around -5? Its a whole bar of meter on a huge risk. Other characters have much dumber mix-up options as it is.

 

[RYX]

The amount of people being this wrong about comparing Jason to Kotal is almost headache inducing. Kotal's just straight-up better, I have no clue why anyone thinks otherwise. Kotal's got better damage, better mix-ups, better footsies, better pokes, frame traps, he's faster and he's about the same as far as safety goes. Jason has a teleport in Relentless, a fast-ish gap closer in BF3, a faster healing/damage buff in Unstoppable (but he needs to activate both), and better armor. He has an okay projectile in Slasher.

I'd rather have Sun Disc than Machete Toss, too. Kotal's run is superb and the +15/+30 is way better than a mediocre projectile.

 

[RYX]

I was also messing around, but aside from Blood God's absurd damage potential, he also has some crazy healing potential as well. Sun Ray (yes, I know we like to complain about it recovering too slowly, and it does) and Blood Totem (which is still bugged, hopefully fixed soon with the next patch) can give him massive healing spikes if he's able to set it up. Obviously it's gonna be borderline impossible to throw both of them out there at once but used individually, he'll still be able to shrug off huge chunks of damage.

I think we'll have to accept that usability's going to come with a love tap to efficiency, but I'd gladly accept Sun Ray healing less if I could use it more.

 

[Hassun]

@RYX Jason has even worse mixups than Kotal? Jeez that must suck since Sun God Kotal doesn't even have a high/low one that gets him anything. It's basically just "throw or attack" and I don't even know what Blood God Kotal has in terms of mixups.

 

[RYX]

@RYX Jason has even worse mixups than Kotal? Jeez that must suck since Sun God Kotal doesn't even have a high/low one that gets him anything. It's basically just "throw or attack" and I don't even know what Blood God Kotal has in terms of mixups.

his low/overhead isn't even a mix-up considering how easy it is to block and how he's got nothing else to use.

Blood God doesn't have mix ups, it's his worst variation. All you've got is your basic, universal stuff and a butt-load of potential damage/healing that you have to set up first. It's hard to actually reap the rewards seeing as his lack of mix-ups, but I guess that's how they wanted him to be played

 

[RYX]

do you guys think it'd be too much if, say, an EX sun choke gave you two levels of sunny D? seems odd that you're only getting armor when other grabs at least get a sizable damage buff/the ability to throw you the opposite way (Goro for example)

i'm really starting to dig Sun Ray but yeesh, that recovery is cruel. Seems like it's gonna be set-up reliant, but anyone with a fast wakeup can seemingly blow it up

 

[regulas]

do you guys think it'd be too much if, say, an EX sun choke gave you two levels of sunny D? seems odd that you're only getting armor when other grabs at least get a sizable damage buff/the ability to throw you the opposite way (Goro for example)

i'm really starting to dig Sun Ray but yeesh, that recovery is cruel. Seems like it's gonna be set-up reliant, but anyone with a fast wakeup can seemingly blow it up

It would be cool if Grab got something, I think it was Rico who said Sun god felt pointless because the current grab is only marginally better then generic. Apparently before the day 1 patch it actually did do like 2% more at all levels and they felt he needed a nerf... shrug...

As it stands I'm finding Blood as a touch better then sun simply because it feels like damage is all Kotal gets, so amplifying it is more efficient then the grab option. For the time being 50% punish combo's is proving to be fairly consistent and reasonably effective.

At Aquas behest I've been using Offering and Ray more and am finding them less disastrous, Ray especially because punish combo's are so much of my "offense" it baits out bad moves, though this and the lack of punish still feels like a lack of match-up knowledge currently. It would still be cool if they were fast enough that I could avoid be run/combo punished fullscreen on reaction if I use them from neutral.

 

[RYX]

It would be cool if Grab got something, I think it was Rico who said Sun god felt pointless because the current grab is only marginally better then generic. Apparently before the day 1 patch it actually did do like 2% more at all levels and they felt he needed a nerf... shrug...

As it stands I'm finding Blood as a touch better then sun simply because it feels like damage is all Kotal gets, so amplifying it is more efficient then the grab option. For the time being 50% punish combo's is proving to be fairly consistent and reasonably effective.

At Aquas behest I've been using Offering and Ray more and am finding them less disastrous, Ray especially because punish combo's are so much of my "offense" it baits out bad moves, though this and the lack of punish still feels like a lack of match-up knowledge currently. It would still be cool if they were fast enough that I could avoid be run/combo punished fullscreen on reaction if I use them from neutral.

they should revert that, nobody else has to land their command grab three times to do the same amount of damage, and i'm pretty sure there's a few that do more without costing a bar as well. 18% on a raw grab would hardly be overbearing considering the opportunity cost of sitting on it vs gaining health/meter

I think Blood God is alright. I can imagine him getting decent emphasis on chip damage with Sun Ray/Blood Totem and his frame traps, emphasis on 'imagine' because of his abysmal recovery. It's not like he loses anything out of his basic kit like Slasher Jason, but only having totems still leaves something to be desired.

I'm trying to get acquainted with frame gaps for EX parry; I hope I can remember them for the rare chance I actually find someone who isn't playing Ermac or Scorpion. Normal parry feels a lot less useful outside of good reads. I kinda wish it just stopped opponents entirely, considering that parrying certain gaps can't even be taken advantage of right now. Then again, it's Kotal Kahn and the parry's supposed to lose to multiple-hitting moves, and considering his raw damage output I guess it makes sense.

 

[regulas]

they should revert that, nobody else has to land their command grab three times to do the same amount of damage, and i'm pretty sure there's a few that do more without costing a bar as well. 18% on a raw grab would hardly be overbearing considering the opportunity cost of sitting on it vs gaining health/meter

I think Blood God is alright. I can imagine him getting decent emphasis on chip damage with Sun Ray/Blood Totem and his frame traps, emphasis on 'imagine' because of his abysmal recovery. It's not like he loses anything out of his basic kit like Slasher Jason, but only having totems still leaves something to be desired.

I'm trying to get acquainted with frame gaps for EX parry; I hope I can remember them for the rare chance I actually find someone who isn't playing Ermac or Scorpion. Normal parry feels a lot less useful outside of good reads. I kinda wish it just stopped opponents entirely, considering that parrying certain gaps can't even be taken advantage of right now. Then again, it's Kotal Kahn and the parry's supposed to lose to multiple-hitting moves, and considering his raw damage output I guess it makes sense.

The thing with blood is learning to be able to keep crystal out at all times, It's actually not so much a gimmic and pretty easy due to a lot of strings being safe including poke~totem being safe on hit, you're basically just dealing a chuck of extra damage at all times, with my favorite bnb dealing 48% damage plus Ray/Offering safely midscreen for 1 bar (you can get over 52% for 1 bar without the set-up, or use more bars for more dmg to finish a match).

Parry/EXp is your recovery which is still not as good as an armor move but at least makes it far easier to deal with mix-ups.

 

[Khaoz77]

The thing with blood is learning to be able to keep crystal out at all times, It's actually not so much a gimmic and pretty easy due to a lot of strings being safe including poke~totem being safe on hit, you're basically just dealing a chuck of extra damage at all times, with my favorite bnb dealing 48% damage plus Ray/Offering safely midscreen for 1 bar (you can get over 52% for 1 bar without the set-up, or use more bars for more dmg to finish a match).

Parry/EXp is your recovery which is still not as good as an armor move but at least makes it far easier to deal with mix-ups.

Do you feel yourself getting better at the neutral with Blood God? Since we have to play differently as opposed to our sweet War God, I also have a bit of a problem with what totem to use in different situations, as I feel like I have to change my game according to the totem I put out.

For example, if I put a Obsidian totem down, I'm very defensive and won't go in as much, and for Crystal, my mind just shifts to "LAND A F2 IMMEDIATELY"

 

[regulas]

Do you feel yourself getting better at the neutral with Blood God? Since we have to play differently as opposed to our sweet War God, I also have a bit of a problem with what totem to use in different situations, as I feel like I have to change my game according to the totem I put out.

For example, if I put a Obsidian totem down, I'm very defensive and won't go in as much, and for Crystal, my mind just shifts to "LAND A F2 IMMEDIATELY"

I'm getting a lot better but that's in great part due to being exceedingly rusty so focusing on basics helps me more for now. Also don't be too hasty with F2. It's usually best after a back-dash dodge or other wiff. Really because you get the bonus damage as blood you will be focusing a lot more on single abilities like throw, trip, pokes, uppercut, using 114 as your main pressure string. Your goal mostly is to make them make a mistake you can punish (it's so easy to hit 50% that you only need 1 or 2 punished in a match to win compared to 3+ for others), it works better for you then other characters because with crystal and blood offering you can get so much damage off of these basic abilities that you don't suffer for not always trying to combo.

I do find that you may aswell just always go damage totem, unless your in a specific match-up that you expect to need the reduction for. Unfortunately without armor moves theres not really any good ways to use obsidian totem that much. Blood is still bugged for now but I could see it useful in a situation where you want to avoid them getting enough meter for say a breaker even if that would still be a rare usage, really it would only be good if it could always give some healing and not only on the rare full duration.

Also while I'm sure it will be blown up by better players easily, in the meantime take advantage of their lack of match-up knowledge to fire off Blood offering as much as you can. People rareley punish currently.


Kotal Kahn as a whole feels like he was re-designed after the fact to be centred on damage. Like they had already finished his design and then went "actually instead lets just make him all about high damage, we don't have time to remake him so just boost his damage and nerf everything else to compensate".

 

[Crayraven]

The thing with blood is learning to be able to keep crystal out at all times, It's actually not so much a gimmic and pretty easy due to a lot of strings being safe including poke~totem being safe on hit, you're basically just dealing a chuck of extra damage at all times, with my favorite bnb dealing 48% damage plus Ray/Offering safely midscreen for 1 bar (you can get over 52% for 1 bar without the set-up, or use more bars for more dmg to finish a match).

Parry/EXp is your recovery which is still not as good as an armor move but at least makes it far easier to deal with mix-ups.

I don't think keeping crystal totem out at all times is always the right thing to do. Blood god is good for adjusting to the tempo of the fight. Which is why each totem does something radically different than the last. Obsidian totem shouldn't be overlooked. Combine the -34% damage reduction with ex god ray provides significant damage mitigation. Its good for when you expect to take heavy damage, given you have the time to set it all up.

 

[Hellbringer]

Ending combos with b122~crystal totem also seems to give you enough time to do bloodoffering.

Im telling you, you DONT wanna get hit if bloodgod got this going cause with 1 bar he can do 60/70% easily.

 

[RYX]

throw gives you a free totem on hit, I might start ending combos with it

it's also -really- good if you know your timers on totems so you can have it expire mid throw and throw another one up.

Basic combos for something like this mid-screen would go along the lines of

F1B2, F2, throw = 22%
f2, f2, f2, throw =31%
114 xx ex.DF1, f.2, throw = 36%
f2 f2 f2, b14 xx ex.DF1, throw = 40%

you'll get a guaranteed totem regardless of distance, but i think you'll be at minor disadvantage due to the recovery.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Been playing War God Kotal and been having an absolute blast with him. Fun to play, enjoyable footsies, can do mixup even if gimmicky slightly and risky... Yeah, think Shinnok can sit on the backburner for now. XP

 

[KeyserSoze]

I don't think keeping crystal totem out at all times is always the right thing to do. Blood god is good for adjusting to the tempo of the fight. Which is why each totem does something radically different than the last. Obsidian totem shouldn't be overlooked. Combine the -34% damage reduction with ex god ray provides significant damage mitigation. Its good for when you expect to take heavy damage, given you have the time to set it all up.

I've been arguing this point since day 1. The Obsidian Totem is far from useless. I challenge everyone who thinks it is useless to do the following experiment: Force yourself to play the next 20 (or 30, or 50, or however many you can stomach) matches ONLY using the Obsidian totem. Then do the same (with the same number of matches) for the Crystal totem. To get a large enough sample size to both rule out statistical anomalies as well as get enough variety in your opponents, this would probably have to be repeated several times. But, regardless, my prediction is that there would be no substantial difference in your performance between exclusively using each totem.

 

[RYX]

playing Jason makes me wish I could throw all my totems up at once, lol

Obsidian totem is pretty baller. It's really not like a "match-up specific thing," it just works fantastic vs everyone thanks to reducing combo damage and chip. I still lament that it doesn't grant him armor but damage mitigation to the level that Kotal has is plenty good enough.

So, what do you guys think are his major issues that can be reasonably adjusted with patches? Right now, my main concerns are Sun Ray's recovery and the risk-reward of some of his strings

 

[RYX]

throw gives you a free totem on hit, I might start ending combos with it

it's also -really- good if you know your timers on totems so you can have it expire mid throw and throw another one up.

Basic combos for something like this mid-screen would go along the lines of

F1B2, F2, throw = 22%
f2, f2, f2, throw =31%
114 xx ex.DF1, f.2, throw = 36%
f2 f2 f2, b14 xx ex.DF1, throw = 40%

you'll get a guaranteed totem regardless of distance, but i think you'll be at minor disadvantage due to the recovery.

Tacking on to this, Soul Scorch (the meter/health cash out) is guaranteed too, since it has the same frame data as the totems

So basically you can sit on your Sunny D until you need it, and all you need is one throw to get meter/health back. It's safe in the corner as well, my only issue is actually getting the dbf motions out fast enough. I really wish NRS would stop using such a terrible input

edit: so a combo like f1b2 xx dbf1, d1, f1b2 xx db2 will only do 22% but you can get up to like 60% of a bar with this one combo.

114 xx dbf1 is also safe on block, so you can make a pretty decent recovery if you need health/meter

 

[Khaoz77]

Tacking on to this, Soul Scorch (the meter/health cash out) is guaranteed too, since it has the same frame data as the totems

So basically you can sit on your Sunny D until you need it, and all you need is one throw to get meter/health back. It's safe in the corner as well, my only issue is actually getting the dbf motions out fast enough. I really wish NRS would stop using such a terrible input

FUCKING THIS...

Is it really that much of a hassle to use hcf or hcb motions? As a KOF player, this motion is too free for me at least.

playing Jason makes me wish I could throw all my totems up at once, lol

So, what do you guys think are his major issues that can be reasonably adjusted with patches? Right now, my main concerns are Sun Ray's recovery and the risk-reward of some of his strings

You pretty much hit it. Sun Ray needs to have reasonable recovery, and the string i really want them to look at is f3,4. I try to implement this move and 8 times out of 10 i get stuffed. This is his only low starter, cmon now.

 

[RYX]

FUCKING THIS...

Is it really that much of a hassle to use hcf or hcb motions? As a KOF player, this motion is too free for me at least.



You pretty much hit it. Sun Ray needs to have reasonable recovery, and the string i really want them to look at is f3,4. I try to implement this move and 8 times out of 10 i get stuffed. This is his only low starter, cmon now.

I personally don't like the input, I think it's out of place and unnecessarily tedious

f3,4 needs to recover/cancel faster. I think it's absurd that his only low launching string can only be combo'd in the corner. It's not like he's going to become a 50/50 monster(outside of War God), he has no fast overhead options and you can see his grab coming from a mile away. Not to mention it's full combo punishable on block

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I personally don't like the input, I think it's out of place and unnecessarily tedious

f3,4 needs to recover/cancel faster. I think it's absurd that his only low launching string can only be combo'd in the corner. It's not like he's going to become a 50/50 monster, he has no fast overhead options and you can see his grab coming from a mile away

I for one do not like HCF/HCB inputs on pad to begin with but eh.

 

[NHDR]

Half-circle inputs are easy as hell. You guys want truly annoying? Mishima special step cancels from SFxT: F, Neutral, DF. Seems easy but becomes very annoying in complex strings.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Half-circle inputs are easy as hell. You guys want truly annoying? Mishima special step cancels from SFxT: F, Neutral, DF. Seems easy but becomes very annoying in complex strings.

Oh no, I had to do the EWGFs off of those too and the wavedashing to avoid fireballs, I know that struggle lol...