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Kitana vs Smoke/Smoke vs Kitana Help?

PeeJaeys

Sabi

Here's the video I put some music and added crap so that it could at least be have decent to watch. I really need good input here. D+4 seems to work on her wake up really nicely, but Idk what's going. Whether its her fast pace movement or what that just intimidates me. I know I dropped a lot of stuff, but other than that what would do you think I should work on? I really need detailed advice, either things you'd do differently or keep the same. I tried to TP every fan toss, but doesn't work so well, unless it's lag then Idk.

I just remembered I had a similar thread, started on the kitana forum, is it possible for a mod to merge or erase the previous one. I apologize for the inconvinience.
 

Here's the video I put some music and added crap so that it could at least be have decent to watch. I really need good input here. D+4 seems to work on her wake up really nicely, but Idk what's going. Whether its her fast pace movement or what that just intimidates me. I know I dropped a lot of stuff, but other than that what would do you think I should work on? I really need detailed advice, either things you'd do differently or keep the same. I tried to TP every fan toss, but doesn't work so well, unless it's lag then Idk.

I just remembered I had a similar thread, started on the kitana forum, is it possible for a mod to merge or erase the previous one. I apologize for the inconvinience.
Did you post this in the smoke forum? Might have better luck there... smoke is a really easy matchup for kitana and I don't know enough about smoke to give any great advice. I was hoping this thread would be the other way around because the advice would be easy, lol.

That guy's kitana was pretty solid with the df+2 pressure but otrrewise he really wasn't that advanced. Never even caught you in a ground fan after iAF.

The only advice I could say is mix her up more. When she's stand blocking, sweep her. Smoke has a great sweep. When she whiffs her F+2,1 you should teleport as she's doing the second whiff and get some damage there. At range you really dont have too many options that can get to kitana but it didn't look like you tried zoning her in the video (iirc) much, and you might as well give it a shot. Some people don't know how to dash cancel in on constant smoke bombs. You might catch him not blocking, and if you see fan startup then teleport.

Above all, as you know, against a good player you can't keep dropping your combos or you don't have much chance.
 

Altsa

The main thing I noticed is that you dont respect the safe jump that cutter gives on hit. Too many jump in punches hit you after the cutter.
 

PeeJaeys

Sabi
Mhm, I figured I'd put it here, because I don't really understand kitana at all. I can't ex shake her cutter, which makes absolutely no sense.
 

SZSR

Noob
Okay, I took a look at the video, and here are a few things to go over.

You really need to punish her with 2, 1, smoke bomb when you block her close attack. If you toward, f+2, 1, smoke bomb you have a sizable range of where you can hit your opponent as the f, 2 input essentially moves you 2 steps closer because of the movement animation included in a standing 2. Kitana's d+1 is a killer and can hit you out of your Smoke aways and Smoke towards. If you want to mount an offensive on Kitana when she's doing d+1, you can do a jump in punch or a jump in kick, but the timing is strict, and your attack has to hit very low to the ground because of her small hitbox (which I believe will be patched soon), but only those options as d+1 stuff all of your other combo starters, especially b+2, 3. Kitana zones with her instant air fans but Smoke can easily counter those with his Shake because his Shake changes his stances from a ready position (normal stance when he is doing nothing) to straight standing up so you have a bit more range for the Shake to catch the air fan. Kitana's butt slam (Square Wave is what I call it), can actually be hit out of using your regular 2 since when you do it, it slightly shrinks your hitbox vertically and extends it horizontally, but unless you time it right she can hit you back, it hits her away from you so you can move away. Additionally, positioning against Kitana rather than for her will definitely be a pain in her neck. Her most optimal position is within where the f+2, 1 which is basically within the distance from when you are right next to her and when you Smoke Away, here's a diagram:
[------------------]
[K+++++++S]
[------------------]​
The pluses here are the range that Kitana enjoys, and where the S is is where you can be most dominant. Each plus represents just a single step, so basically seven steps away from Kitana are where you want to be (it's also really close to the max distance of a regular Smoke Away and 3 back dashes). Isn't her only combo starter but within that range, she doesn't have to be afraid of pulling if off because if you aren't blocking she gets a full combo. Keeping this distance is key to controlling the match, if you let her in close then you won't be able to do what you want which is the following:

  1. Make her throws fans so she has to chip you from practically full screen, this is where you can punish with regular Shake.
  2. You throwing out your Smoke bombs which is a win-win if she does or doesn't block. If she does, thanks to fleshmasher here, we know that it helps you build meter quickly, and 8 of those build you a bar of meter which you will need for :en Smoke bombs, :en Shakes, :en Teleports and breaker. If she doesn't block then you get a free combo.
  3. Her Instant air fans leave her vulnerable in the air for a few seconds as she falls. Usually you can't do anything as she recovers but with Meter, you can easily catch her as she falls with :en Smoke bomb leaving you for full combo. If you mistime and she blocks, she eats 2% chip and you build a smidgen of meter, at which point you go back to building meter.
  4. Kitana thrives in the corner as can you, but since she has unbreakerable high damage combos, it's a better option to try to direct your combos to the center of the stage, by ending combos with just a jumping kick to leave her in the center if the combo directs you there, but if she's heading into the corner, air throw her instead. You can risk getting in a corner for your own high damage and use your :en Teleports to move away.
Meter is pretty important, and I saw you doing :en Shake from a distance, Square Wave goes over it and she can easily position next to you to poke you out of it. Punishing Square Wave with standing 2 is pretty important when she tries to position next to you, if you can hit her out of the air, you're gold, but moving away with your Smoke teleports on Wake Up helps too.

This is what i've thought on during the matchup and it's not really complete because I can still get bodied by Kitanas, but this is what has helped me stay in game against them online.
 
I agree somewhat with the spacing comment posted above. Smoke's midrange options vs. Kitana just are not good. If you are in her F2 range, then you are in trouble. However, I disagree to one extent that saying Smoke is still uncomfortable up close. I feel that Kitana wants to keep you at the edge of her F2 range where you have limited options. She can get you into a combo via long range F2, and your normals will just not reach her. Most of your specials wont do you any good at this range either (I can explain why, but I dont feel it's necessary, if you want ask).

Smoke up close makes me less comfortable. I feel much better when my F2 can hit you and nothing you can dish out will hit me. Get in so range difsadvantage isnt an issue.

Speaking of getting it, have I told you how much I hate airborne teleports to get in? I personally find it rather difficult to deal with since I cannot block the teleport, and Smoke doesn't have a lot of landing lag to punish.

Careful where you hold your EX shakes too. Not only can Kitty land a cutter during your shake, she can land a fan lift which results in a nice long combo.

Careful with moderate range normal shakes as well. A Kitty player can fake a IAF and replace it with an IASquare boost which will break the shake.

Watch those cutters. If you get hit by one on the ground, enter defensive mode. You are at a huge frame disadvantage and you cannot do anything until your stagger state is over. This opens up mixup opportunities for Kitty as well as a free jump in. You fell victim to the staggers more than once.
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
I will reply another day with more info on the video, but for now:

#1 rule of fighting games is a good defense breeds a good offense. You rarely ever blocked and when you did, you didn't know what to do. Try to learn from getting hit by things. Get a friend to do moves on you and learn your options in any given situation.

Duck the cutter and shake the fans.
 

Geochron

Noob
One thing I noticed a few times is you didn't block after getting hit by cutter. It causes stagger state so you can only block if it hits.
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Did you post this in the smoke forum? Might have better luck there... smoke is a really easy matchup for kitana and I don't know enough about smoke to give any great advice. I was hoping this thread would be the other way around because the advice would be easy, lol.

That guy's kitana was pretty solid with the df+2 pressure but otrrewise he really wasn't that advanced. Never even caught you in a ground fan after iAF.

Yeah lol I rly gotta get her to add that unbreakable fan damage after catching an IaF. I just dont practiceit as much as I should. Sometimes I just get too much in a rhytm with her and continue silly mistakes. I dont have her using d1~cutter enough and her doing other strings or even throws off jps really wouldnt hurt.

I just like to keep things a lil simple, like some world champions do in BJJ. But yeah its time vary her arsenal a lil bit and adapt to situations and patterns more when i play her.

And I have to disagree about this matchup being in favour with smoke. He is really quick and mobile and smoke bomb spam keeps Kit on her toes, but she has alot of baiting tools to employ against him and she can easily dominate sweep to close distance against him with f2, 1 and cutter.

EDIT: Just one more thing, I know no one really cares but I should say I kept dropping the b2 in her bnb b/c even with a super good connection like I had on my side with him, for some reason the input window is seemingly much smaller than offline. It needs to be done AS soon as the 1 launches. :S
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Careful where you hold your EX shakes too. Not only can Kitty land a cutter during your shake, she can land a fan lift which results in a nice long combo.

Careful with moderate range normal shakes as well. A Kitty player can fake a IAF and replace it with an IASquare boost which will break the shake.

Watch those cutters. If you get hit by one on the ground, enter defensive mode. You are at a huge frame disadvantage and you cannot do anything until your stagger state is over. This opens up mixup opportunities for Kitty as well as a free jump in. You fell victim to the staggers more than once.
Yeah I def like her mixing up an Af with a SB when a Smoke seems to predicatbly shake. And did it quite alot there.

Im pretty sure I tried cutter later on in the matches on EX Shake and it didnt work. Fan lift sounds like it def would tho.

As for the staggers, i think he had some sort of "block lag" that he explains in the vid. When he's able to block it tho, he can def poke Kit out of any fake out mixups.
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Did you post this in the smoke forum? Might have better luck there... smoke is a really easy matchup for kitana and I don't know enough about smoke to give any great advice. I was hoping this thread would be the other way around because the advice would be easy, lol.

That guy's kitana was pretty solid with the df+2 pressure but otrrewise he really wasn't that advanced. Never even caught you in a ground fan after iAF.
chance.
Another thing I wanna say about this is opted to haver dash in for kombo when afs caught smoke. Ground fan to followup the af doesnt do much unless I'm willing to have her spend a bar afterward, or maybe if she is close enough to still juggle despite the heavier gravity caused by an ground fan.
 

VIDA

Focused Grace and Intensity
Offtopic but ehmm, whats that combo she does the whole time at 5:55?
Its not a kombo, his block just wouldnt come out on these safejump scenarios. Its f4,1~cutter off a jps. The 1 has to be cancelled into cutter as soon as it strats to animate.