STRYKIE
Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
So we recently had the Scorpion assessment thread to get a community consensus about how the Scorpion forums feels about what Scorpion brings to the table across all variations, and for the most part, in terms of both pros and cons, we're generally in agreement.
I have personally been playing Scorpion since I first had competitive access to the game in May, overall, I currently believe he is in the upper half of the tier list, but his representation has been scarce since June, and with the way things are shaping up, he could be heading south, and it'll be due to neglect, rather than default.
I, like others, would've liked to have held out for a bit longer and let things play out before making this kind of thread, but NRS' patching system doesn't allow for that, and in all honesty we've been entitled to do this since the 214 string got fucked anyway.
I feel these issues weren't taken into account, or aren't being taken advantage of because opposition were too, or still are befuddled by the old 214 strings properties, especially in Hellfire. This is not a spur of the moment "buff him before it's too late!" thread, these are all things I have been monitoring closely for months and have wanted to make sure all of my information is correct.
Outside of Ninjutsu's damage (which, I'm inclined to think was more of a reversion than a legit buff, given how question begging the old scaling was in the first place), Scorpion has received zero help, and I think now is the time to bring to attention where he could use it.
Before I get started....
Disclaimers:
Okay, here we go....
Armor
Strings/Normals
Normalizations
Again, I don't expect every single proposed change to take place, and I believe I'm being as honest as I can be with these changes over months of careful homework. If anyone feels like there's something I'm not taking into account, or I'm making catastrophic mistakes with these ideas, by all means, let me know.
@Slips
@YOMI MITYEAP
@Eddy Wang
@Scoot Magee
@JTB123
@OutworldKeith
@Triplswing
@HeroesNZ
@every Scorpion main in every variation (haven't posted a serious Scorp thread in a while, I'm rusty...)
I have personally been playing Scorpion since I first had competitive access to the game in May, overall, I currently believe he is in the upper half of the tier list, but his representation has been scarce since June, and with the way things are shaping up, he could be heading south, and it'll be due to neglect, rather than default.
I, like others, would've liked to have held out for a bit longer and let things play out before making this kind of thread, but NRS' patching system doesn't allow for that, and in all honesty we've been entitled to do this since the 214 string got fucked anyway.
I feel these issues weren't taken into account, or aren't being taken advantage of because opposition were too, or still are befuddled by the old 214 strings properties, especially in Hellfire. This is not a spur of the moment "buff him before it's too late!" thread, these are all things I have been monitoring closely for months and have wanted to make sure all of my information is correct.
Outside of Ninjutsu's damage (which, I'm inclined to think was more of a reversion than a legit buff, given how question begging the old scaling was in the first place), Scorpion has received zero help, and I think now is the time to bring to attention where he could use it.
Before I get started....
Disclaimers:
- I'm not asking for every single questionable thing to be addressed, I'm okay with Scorpion falling short at some things.
- "But Strykie, they need to focus on helping the bottom tiers first!".... nothing about this thread suggests that NRS should steer clear of doing so. Besides, with the way Shinnok, Kitana, and somewhat even Liu Kang have turned out, is it wise for NRS to take advice of helping claimed "bottom tiers" just because?
- If there is an issue that I point out that your character also has, it probably pertains to a universal mechanic, and I implore you to do the same for your character. If you're just gonna give me sentimental shit about it because you were able to do so in threads for other not-bottom-tier characters who have had help suggested for them, don't even try me, I'll make your life on TYM miserable.
- No matter how hard we try, some people just... don't like to read. So I'll forewarn that I'm only suggesting 1 buff for Hellfire, and it's only as a tertiary choice if NRS aren't prepared to make the necessary changes to make my initial suggestions practical.
- "But Strykie, they need to focus on helping the bottom tiers first!".... nothing about this thread suggests that NRS should steer clear of doing so. Besides, with the way Shinnok, Kitana, and somewhat even Liu Kang have turned out, is it wise for NRS to take advice of helping claimed "bottom tiers" just because?
- If there is an issue that I point out that your character also has, it probably pertains to a universal mechanic, and I implore you to do the same for your character. If you're just gonna give me sentimental shit about it because you were able to do so in threads for other not-bottom-tier characters who have had help suggested for them, don't even try me, I'll make your life on TYM miserable.
- No matter how hard we try, some people just... don't like to read. So I'll forewarn that I'm only suggesting 1 buff for Hellfire, and it's only as a tertiary choice if NRS aren't prepared to make the necessary changes to make my initial suggestions practical.
Okay, here we go....
Armor
Some people persisted that Scorpion didn't need armor early in the game's life, but by now, the gig is officially up, Scorpion's armor is categorically unacceptable. And with the improvements given to other character's armor, his now sits amongst the worst in the game, and I feel he needs an armored starter that can be used at any time to keep up rather than settle for 14% and be forced to respect a wake-up immediately afterwards.
Keep in mind, I'm only proposing that one of the suggestion tiers are implemented, not all of them, and that these changes are only being suggested for the EX versions.
Primary suggestions:
Armor on EX Minion Grab in Inferno, startup reduced to 16 frames, tracking now the same as the regular Minion Grab, should remain just as unsafe. (IMO, this would be the fairest way to do this, as it would keep Inferno competitively relevant and fit right in with the counter-zoning economics of the variation. If it remains at 28 frames, it would still be far too easy to break through the armor nor properly punish something out of it's recovery frames. May potentially be considered too braindead.)
Known optimal damage if this is given: 31%
Armor on EX Minion Charge, (note: in game frame data on this move is incorrect) startup reduced to 23 frames, block advantage reduced to -5. All other properties should remain the same. This would compliment Inferno with a safer armored option if EX Minion Grab is being respected.
Known optimal damage if this is given: 15%
Secondary suggestion:
Armor on EX Spear, now a true mid, block advantage increased to -21.
Long story short, we're not assholes, we're not banking on NRS not noticing the frame data and giving us a safe non-stamina dependant armored launcher. The problem with this is that Inferno would no longer have a safe mixup option and this would almost certainly pull the trigger on the variation.
Known optimal damage if this is given:
Inferno: 29%
Ninjutsu: 29%
Hellfire: 26%
Tertiary suggestion:
Armor on EX Flame Aura, block advantage increased to -16, activation and ticks now do same damage as regular version.
I'll take it if I must, but I'm worried that this would turn Hellfire in the uber variation all over again. Would be the least braindead armored option given that linking from it takes a keen eye, but may be too good in the hands of a seasoned Hellfire player.
Known optimal damage if this is given:
As things stand: 37%
With my suggested regulation: 32%
Alternate primary suggestion:
MB option from EX spear now a separate move, retains same properties but goes straight into the flaming animation on hit without costing further meter, EX version armored and unsafe on block. Same properties as regular spear beforehand.
While I think this would be a good way to keep the move relevant whilst not having to sacrifice the safety of regular EX spear, I'm not sure if it's too much legwork for NRS to implement.
Known optimal damage if this is given:
Inferno: 31%
Ninjutsu: 30%
Hellfire: 29%
Keep in mind, I'm only proposing that one of the suggestion tiers are implemented, not all of them, and that these changes are only being suggested for the EX versions.
Primary suggestions:
Armor on EX Minion Grab in Inferno, startup reduced to 16 frames, tracking now the same as the regular Minion Grab, should remain just as unsafe. (IMO, this would be the fairest way to do this, as it would keep Inferno competitively relevant and fit right in with the counter-zoning economics of the variation. If it remains at 28 frames, it would still be far too easy to break through the armor nor properly punish something out of it's recovery frames. May potentially be considered too braindead.)
Known optimal damage if this is given: 31%
Armor on EX Minion Charge, (note: in game frame data on this move is incorrect) startup reduced to 23 frames, block advantage reduced to -5. All other properties should remain the same. This would compliment Inferno with a safer armored option if EX Minion Grab is being respected.
Known optimal damage if this is given: 15%
Secondary suggestion:
Armor on EX Spear, now a true mid, block advantage increased to -21.
Long story short, we're not assholes, we're not banking on NRS not noticing the frame data and giving us a safe non-stamina dependant armored launcher. The problem with this is that Inferno would no longer have a safe mixup option and this would almost certainly pull the trigger on the variation.
Known optimal damage if this is given:
Inferno: 29%
Ninjutsu: 29%
Hellfire: 26%
Tertiary suggestion:
Armor on EX Flame Aura, block advantage increased to -16, activation and ticks now do same damage as regular version.
I'll take it if I must, but I'm worried that this would turn Hellfire in the uber variation all over again. Would be the least braindead armored option given that linking from it takes a keen eye, but may be too good in the hands of a seasoned Hellfire player.
Known optimal damage if this is given:
As things stand: 37%
With my suggested regulation: 32%
Alternate primary suggestion:
MB option from EX spear now a separate move, retains same properties but goes straight into the flaming animation on hit without costing further meter, EX version armored and unsafe on block. Same properties as regular spear beforehand.
While I think this would be a good way to keep the move relevant whilst not having to sacrifice the safety of regular EX spear, I'm not sure if it's too much legwork for NRS to implement.
Known optimal damage if this is given:
Inferno: 31%
Ninjutsu: 30%
Hellfire: 29%
Strings/Normals
- D1 hit advantage increased to +13, no change to any other properties
- D4 startup increased to 10 frames, hit advantage increased to +22
As things stand, it's impossible for Scorpion to guarantee himself any kind of check from the max range of these pokes outside of Ninjutsu, and it's not practical to hit-confirm these pokes into a safe option even when you are in range without the risk or being armored backdashed, or even jumped.
But it's to my understanding that the faster your D4 is, the less hitstun you acquire from it, IMO, the hitstun to guarantee Scorpion a follow up is more important to Scorp than the startup, so if the startup has to be adjusted so that he can't just machine gun it, so be it.
- Hitstun animation of (1)2 adjusted so that (12)3 is always in range to reach.
This would allow Inferno and Ninjutsu more reliable access to their optimal damage on a punish. Trying to link from 214 has become far too inconsistent and awkward in a competitive environment, and this is coming from a guy who discovered several lesser known links and frame traps in Hellfire.
-B32 to be special cancellable
I have recently discovered that if the 2nd hit of the B32F2 string is blocked crouching, it can be interrupted by some characters, but not others. The Ninjutsu version cannot be interrupted but is punishable on block.
As demonstrated below:
If this was special cancellable, I feel Scorpion would be able to chase down with this string and keep them honest more reliably.
- D4 startup increased to 10 frames, hit advantage increased to +22
As things stand, it's impossible for Scorpion to guarantee himself any kind of check from the max range of these pokes outside of Ninjutsu, and it's not practical to hit-confirm these pokes into a safe option even when you are in range without the risk or being armored backdashed, or even jumped.
But it's to my understanding that the faster your D4 is, the less hitstun you acquire from it, IMO, the hitstun to guarantee Scorpion a follow up is more important to Scorp than the startup, so if the startup has to be adjusted so that he can't just machine gun it, so be it.
- Hitstun animation of (1)2 adjusted so that (12)3 is always in range to reach.
This would allow Inferno and Ninjutsu more reliable access to their optimal damage on a punish. Trying to link from 214 has become far too inconsistent and awkward in a competitive environment, and this is coming from a guy who discovered several lesser known links and frame traps in Hellfire.
-B32 to be special cancellable
I have recently discovered that if the 2nd hit of the B32F2 string is blocked crouching, it can be interrupted by some characters, but not others. The Ninjutsu version cannot be interrupted but is punishable on block.
As demonstrated below:
If this was special cancellable, I feel Scorpion would be able to chase down with this string and keep them honest more reliably.
Normalizations
- Minion Drop to have a more distinguishable blockstun animation, remains ~-17 on block.
Admittedly I could be treading on eggshells with this suggestion, given that it's highly unlikely that NRS would restore the old Minion Grab damage scaling in return, but IMO, this is what has been giving people trouble in Inferno all along, not the damage, by instinct, people respect the low and try to react to the overhead, but I can imagine this must be stressing in a competitive environment, and by the time people recognize they have blocked the overhead, the window to punish is already gone.
- Jump 3 to have less active frames, other properties unchanged
I think we can agree this is not something we need, the fact that this can be done outside of sweep range and is still active for long enough to make contact with the opponent is overkill, and gives the opponent no consistent idea of how to defend against it, but I only suggest this if everyone's jump move with 10 or more active frames is being regulated. Otherwise, the idea of only applying this to Scorpion can go to hell.
Oh, and I'm not colluding, if the same has to apply to Jump 4 for the same reasons, so be it.
- Consistent blockstun on B32F2
I can't really throw out a number on what I think the completed string should be on block, because... I don't even know what it is right now. The in game frame data claims -9, nothing above a 7 frame reversal punishes, and even some 7 frame reversals and 6 frame normals don't punish?!
As you can see, Jax's EX GG is a 7 frame reversal, and was able to punish, but neither version of Kung Lao's EX Spin was despite also being a 7 frame reversal.
But even if it is supposed to be -9 and is corrected to be that 100% of the time, it shouldn't be that big of a deal if B32 by itself is made special cancellable like previously suggested.
Admittedly I could be treading on eggshells with this suggestion, given that it's highly unlikely that NRS would restore the old Minion Grab damage scaling in return, but IMO, this is what has been giving people trouble in Inferno all along, not the damage, by instinct, people respect the low and try to react to the overhead, but I can imagine this must be stressing in a competitive environment, and by the time people recognize they have blocked the overhead, the window to punish is already gone.
- Jump 3 to have less active frames, other properties unchanged
I think we can agree this is not something we need, the fact that this can be done outside of sweep range and is still active for long enough to make contact with the opponent is overkill, and gives the opponent no consistent idea of how to defend against it, but I only suggest this if everyone's jump move with 10 or more active frames is being regulated. Otherwise, the idea of only applying this to Scorpion can go to hell.
Oh, and I'm not colluding, if the same has to apply to Jump 4 for the same reasons, so be it.
- Consistent blockstun on B32F2
I can't really throw out a number on what I think the completed string should be on block, because... I don't even know what it is right now. The in game frame data claims -9, nothing above a 7 frame reversal punishes, and even some 7 frame reversals and 6 frame normals don't punish?!
As you can see, Jax's EX GG is a 7 frame reversal, and was able to punish, but neither version of Kung Lao's EX Spin was despite also being a 7 frame reversal.
But even if it is supposed to be -9 and is corrected to be that 100% of the time, it shouldn't be that big of a deal if B32 by itself is made special cancellable like previously suggested.
Again, I don't expect every single proposed change to take place, and I believe I'm being as honest as I can be with these changes over months of careful homework. If anyone feels like there's something I'm not taking into account, or I'm making catastrophic mistakes with these ideas, by all means, let me know.
@Slips
@YOMI MITYEAP
@Eddy Wang
@Scoot Magee
@JTB123
@OutworldKeith
@Triplswing
@HeroesNZ
@every Scorpion main in every variation (haven't posted a serious Scorp thread in a while, I'm rusty...)
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