HMK #21 W/ Phosferrax & PND Mustard

[WiseM0nkey]

If it's -6 he would be free to Cassie, which is lame. The rich would just get richer.

I don't think there's anything wrong with -3. Things like jump back 2, D4, D1, aren't real. It's just user error by the defender.

I'm all in for Cassies nerfs tho, she is reaaally dirty.

and at -3 yeah, you shouldnt be able to press buttons, but you can still low profile with d4 so -6 should be good, if NRS will ever gonna nerf his regular hat

 

[Tweedy]

i meant the b33 actually yeah, didnt know about b32xxexnade being safe, should recheck frame data and stuff... but i mean, i think he's pretty balanced imo

Erron Black is balanced imo. He's not as well rounded as Lao, that's what makes Lao great. His advancing mids, his speed, his jump 2, his 7 frame reversal, 11212, etc.

His dirt shouldn't be taken away, most characters have dirt.

 

[Tweedy]

Something I haven't touched on, are Lao's 2 frame links.

Even though, they're 2 frame links, they can be mastered. I can do them 100% of the time offline, Foxy can even do them online, others can do them online, etc. When pulled off correctly, they do way too much midscreen damage. Imo removing them should be the first priority if Lao gets nerfed.

Edit: When I say 100%, I mean like 95%. I'm human obviously, but there are visual cues that make it pretty easy to master, after loads of practice.

 

[WiseM0nkey]

Something I haven't touched on, are Lao's 2 frame links.

Even though, they're 2 frame links, they can be mastered. I can do them 100% of the time offline, Foxy can even do them online, others can do them online, etc. When pulled off correctly, they do way too much midscreen damage. Imo removing them should be the first priority if Lao gets nerfed.

Edit: When I say 100%, I mean like 95%. I'm human obviously, but there are visual cues that make it pretty easy to master, after loads of practice.

i wouldnt remove it, just tone hi dmg down to 33-35%

 

[Tweedy]

i wouldnt remove it, just tone hi dmg down to 33-35%

Makes sense. You can get 47% 1 bar off of jump 2 using 44, and it carries 3/4s of the screen. The string does way too much damage imo.

 

[GQJ]

3 is fine, he loses the hat and any defence option but block, his normals aren't quick enough to just throw out after either.

I don't quite get the point of the hat if 1, 11, 11212, B3, B321 are all safe (and B32 seems mostly safe?) I am not arguing whether hat spin should be less safe, I just thought the point of hat spin being -3 on block was so s1 could beat most mids.

Deciding to poke out when he can stop at 1, 11, 11212, or with the other string, B3, or B321, is very problematic.

Why not B32? The only two characters that I can think of on the top of my head that can reversal punish is Cassie and Reptile, I am unsure if Cassie can punish b/c EX flipkick has a smaller hitbox than regular flipkick, and I do not know the pushback of B32.

I would like a nerf to Cassie's EX flip kick, since it's not punishable. That doesn't follow the rules of launching armor, especially fast launching armor.

It sets her like more than halfway across the screen, so there's something negative about it.

 

[Matix218]

@JTB123
I really am liking this podcast. I started listening about three episodes ago and this is now right along side with ktp as my favorite mk podcast. Keep up the good work!

Ktp brings the hype, callouts, great off topic discussions, hilariousness from slips and bit (now dave) and awesome long length.

Hmk brings a well thought out and structured podcast that really focuses its content on primarily mkx related topics.

Really enjoying it, good stuff!

 

[JTB123]

@JTB123
I really am liking this podcast. I started listening about three episodes ago and this is now right along side with ktp as my favorite mk podcast. Keep up the good work!

Ktp brings the hype, callouts, great off topic discussions, hilariousness from slips and bit (now dave) and awesome long length.

Hmk brings a well thought out and structured podcast that really focuses its content on primarily mkx related topics.

Really enjoying it, good stuff!

Thanks for the compliments Good to know people are enjoying the show.

 

[ChatterBox]

ESL: I agree with Phos that the European ESL is the more hype of the two streamed in english. The results on both sides haven't been as dramatically one sided like they were the first time with SonicFoxy demolishing the competition, which is a huge boon to my interest levels. Love those guys, but there's no tension without competition. The american side still seems less hype, maybe it's the net? Or the players at least being more used to playing online? I think the twins rapid fire commentary certainly helps and should be noted for it's brilliance. I check in on CIS once in a while but rarely watch all of top 8.

The top rep stuff was juicy, bit of fun, really enjoyed the segment.

5 characters that need adjusting:
Buff Kenshi, I think he still just doesn't rate. As a Kenshi main I know that I'm biased, but still, he sucks.
Buff Jason, homeboy just can't deal, don't know him super well but watching @GGA Jeremiah and crew explore him every week it's pretty apparent.
Nerf Quan, he just has a little too much damage in my eyes, especially the unbreakable stuff. I'd love to see his plus frames go too, but that's over the top. Give him pressure after rune, but a 50/50 is so rough.
Nerf Shinnok, I hate those hellsparks, I've never ever seen a better space control move in a fighting game, and they're plus? No thank you sir.
Nerf Lao, he's just hilariously good, I say make regular orbiting hat -6 or 7. It's usually only poke punish, and only cassie and the mirror match full combo. It needs to stop being his turn if he's not gonna spend a bar, make the player stagger or throw a little more often.

Overall I'd really like to see corner carry toned down across the board, it's too late for that though I imagine. Just seems like the whole game boils down to the neutral just once at the first round. The rest is a horrible game of "whoever is in the corner dies." I'm no top player, but from watching all the tournaments these are the things that seem to make the game less fun to watch and play at my "try hard" level.

tl;dr
Love the podcast, keep it up fellas.

 

[GGA Jeremiah]

watching @GGA Jeremiah and crew explore him every week it's pretty apparent.

My love for Jason has got me back into the game. I can't wait for next patch. I trust in Paulo Garcia.

 

[Tweedy]

It's not Kung Lao's turn after normal hatpsin. :/

And again, making it -6, would just make Cassie stronger.

 

[ChatterBox]

It's not Kung Lao's turn after normal hatpsin. :/

And again, making it -6, would just make Cassie stronger.

So a single matchup where your meterless launcher into 35% isn't safe after some strings (that are usually safe themselves) isn't fair? That's the top tier life.

 

[Tweedy]

So a single matchup where your meterless launcher into 35% isn't safe after some strings (that are usually safe themselves) isn't fair? That's the top tier life.

I can't comprehend anything, so i'm gonna make a disrespectful post that makes no sense. That ChatterBox life.

A nerf that ONLY helps another top tier character, is useless. Point of my post.

 

[ChatterBox]

I can't comprehend anything, so i'm gonna make a disrespectful post that makes no sense. That ChatterBox life.

A nerf that ONLY helps another top tier character, is useless. Point of my post.

Didn't mean to come off disrespectful, sorry. No offense meant, I'm not on this site to be one of those people, just to learn.

In my mind it helps any character that can poke him for doing it, or go for their mixup after. It's a meterless launcher that he can do after anything cancellable, why is it -3? Just because CC is ridiculous doesn't mean KL should be too, and she still has that super punishable flip kick. This variation just makes spin safe by having it be orbiting hat, and I still don't get why that's a thing. The point was to bring up the five least balanced characters, and in my mind he came before her, I'm not trying to make cassie the best character in the game, she's dumb too.

 

[Tweedy]

Didn't mean to come off disrespectful, sorry. No offense meant, I'm not on this site to be one of those people, just to learn.

In my mind it helps any character that can poke him for doing it, or go for their mixup after. It's a meterless launcher that he can do after anything cancellable, why is it -3? Just because CC is ridiculous doesn't mean KL should be too, and she still has that super punishable flip kick. This variation just makes spin safe by having it be orbiting hat, and I still don't get why that's a thing. The point was to bring up the five least balanced characters, and in my mind he came before her, I'm not trying to make cassie the best character in the game, she's dumb too.

How does orbiting hat = spin? It doesn't have armor when enhanced. The point of spin is to reverse and anti air. I don't understand the comparison.

Characters like Kung Lao(safe extender) and Ermac(unsafe extender) are very different. Ermac has 50/50s and a vortex. Kung Lao has neither of these things. Pointing out that he's top tier, because of all of his tools, does not change this fact.

Making it -6 would only help Cassie Cage, for the most part. Things like D4, backdashing, jumping away, etc, will still happen, because those things are just user error. And no, i'm not just defending Lao because I have the Tempest name plate under my picture. If this weird nerf happens, i'll just use Cassie Cage. Safe 6 frame armored launcher for days.

To me, the -6 nerf, would just make it easier for players to stop Lao from backdashing or poking after hatspin, and buff Cassie. So no real nerf to Lao, he would just lose to Cassie, which I mean, is not helping the whole balancing the game thing. lol

 

[ChatterBox]

How does orbiting hat = spin? It doesn't have armor when enhanced. The point of spin is to reverse and anti air. I don't understand the comparison.

It's a meterless launcher, they added orbiting hat to MKX lao in a single variation, thus they gave him a safe meterless launcher. In every previous game (and buzzsaw and hat trick) he just had spin, so if he wanted to combo he had to hit confirm or yolo spin. It also anti airs and such, but that's not what we're talking about here. Now he just throws out the hat, if the opponent has no meter it's his turn forever.

Characters like Kung Lao(safe extender) and Ermac(unsafe extender) are very different. Ermac has 50/50s and a vortex. Kung Lao has neither of these things. Pointing out that he's top tier, because of all of his tools, does not change this fact.

Neither does it mean he should have this -3 orbiting hat.

Making it -6 would only help Cassie Cage, for the most part. Things like D4, backdashing, jumping away, etc, will still happen, because those things are just user error. And no, i'm not just defending Lao because I have the Tempest name plate under my picture. If this weird nerf happens, i'll just use Cassie Cage. Safe 6 frame armored launcher for days.

That's awful too! Who thinks that move is ok?

To me, the -6 nerf, would just make it easier for players to stop Lao from backdashing or poking after hatspin, and buff Cassie. So no real nerf to Lao, he would just lose to Cassie, which I mean, is not helping the whole balancing the game thing. lol

So strongly helping 28 characters and slightly helping cassie is not helping the whole balancing thing? Against the single most tournament winning character in the game? No one is making Lao players throw this move out against cassie, just like no one is making them spin against her either. It's just how matchups go, sometimes cassie punishes stuff, that's how the game works for everyone else at the moment.

 

[Tweedy]

It's a meterless launcher, they added orbiting hat to MKX lao in a single variation, thus they gave him a safe meterless launcher. In every previous game (and buzzsaw and hat trick) he just had spin, so if he wanted to combo he had to hit confirm or yolo spin. It also anti airs and such, but that's not what we're talking about here. Now he just throws out the hat, if the opponent has no meter it's his turn forever.


Neither does it mean he should have this -3 orbiting hat.

That's awful too! Who thinks that move is ok?


So strongly helping 28 characters and slightly helping cassie is not helping the whole balancing thing? Against the single most tournament winning character in the game? No one is making Lao players throw this move out against cassie, just like no one is making them spin against her either. It's just how matchups go, sometimes cassie punishes stuff, that's how the game works for everyone else at the moment.

How is it strongly helping any characters besides Cassie? After Lao's hatspin is blocked, as is at -3, it's the other person's turn. No matter how much anyone wants to think that it's not. Making it -6 would just make it slightly easier for players to take their turn, so I mean, in reality, it would do pretty much nothing.

Lao is a great character because he has so many tools, not because of one strong move. And like I've stated before in the thread, since Lao has no 50/50s, vortex, hard to blockables, etc, the dirt of the hatspin is deserved, in my opinion. If you look at a dozen other characters, they have dirt too. What makes Lao so great, is that he can literally do everything really well, outside of mix ups.

I'm not debating because this nerf would hurt my character super bad. I just honestly think that even making hatspin punishable, would not satisfy the people who are going after the character. Kung Lao has some of the best conversions in a the game, a convertable divekick, his jump 2, a ridiculous string in 11212, a 7 frame armored reversal that anti airs, 11 frame advancing mid that can be staggered, a 9 frame D4, with good range that guarantees pressure, great damage, etc. All of this and more on top of the dirt is what makes him so good. If his dirt, being the hatspin, is nerfed, Kung Lao players will adjust slightly, and carry on.

Just my opinion of course. I could be wrong.

 

[Phosferrax]

How is it strongly helping any characters besides Cassie? After Lao's hatspin is blocked, as is at -3, it's the other person's turn. No matter how much anyone wants to think that it's not. Making it -6 would just make it slightly easier for players to take their turn, so I mean, in reality, it would do pretty much nothing.

Lao is a great character because he has so many tools, not because of one strong move. And like I've stated before in the thread, since Lao has no 50/50s, vortex, hard to blockables, etc, the dirt of the hatspin is deserved, in my opinion. If you look at a dozen other characters, they have dirt too. What makes Lao so great, is that he can literally do everything really well, outside of mix ups.

I'm not debating because this nerf would hurt my character super bad. I just honestly think that even making hatspin punishable, would not satisfy the people who are going after the character. Kung Lao has some of the best conversions in a the game, a convertable divekick, his jump 2, a ridiculous string in 11212, a 7 frame armored reversal that anti airs, 11 frame advancing mid that can be staggered, a 9 frame D4, with good range that guarantees pressure, great damage, etc. All of this and more on top of the dirt is what makes him so good. If his dirt, being the hatspin, is nerfed, Kung Lao players will adjust slightly, and carry on.

Just my opinion of course. I could be wrong.

-3 in this game is not a forfeit of your turn. That is just how the game works.

You still have options, there is a still a mind game, you can still reclaim your turn.

 

[IrishMantis]

-3 in this game is not a forfeit of your turn. That is just how the game works.

You still have options, there is a still a mind game, you can still reclaim your turn.

Yeah like if I do f34 or Ex SK I can still poke after because most people will go for their fastest punish which is usually a high so I put most chars in a position to poke to where I can dash back, jump pack or even walk back to not let them get their turn, and even if they do poke then for majority of the cast its my turn again