"Final" UMK3 Tier List before UMK3:TE?

[dubson]

I don't know if I'm trolling not as well, but the challenge remains.

And each time I win the challenge, I'll say "who's next" really smug like.

M'k. Ill hold ya to it. I will be at Evo for sure, and probably Frosty Faustings in Chicago. So you said to name the majors and those are 2 I can make. Also always willing to do it online as always. When is ECT and NEC and will you be going to those or what majors will you be attending other than Final Round? Hell, when is Final Round?

 

[Juggs]

M'k. Ill hold ya to it. I will be at Evo for sure, and probably Frosty Faustings. So you said to name the majors and those are 2 I can make. Also always willing to do it online as always. When is ECT and NEC and will you be going to those or what majors will you be attending other than Final Round? Hell, when is Final Round?

Final Round will probably in March next year, usually is.

 

[dubson]

OI mean, she has a pop-up combo where Jade does not, and she definitely out damages Jade in both normal combo damage and certainly in punishment damage.

And this isn't even getting into all the match-ups stuff which you haven't even elaborated on either, which is what I was waiting for. All the above aside, what are Jade's favorable MU's compared to Mileena?

Punishers are also relative, air punishment like blocked teleports sure Mileena is better but not necessarily against a blocked spin or shoulder ram. Jade's ground game, rush down, zone game, maybe even air born potential in the corner is superior. I would need ded on that.

Taken from UMK:

Mileena

Mileena is considered a very low tier character, probably around 22nd of the 23 in UMK3, and third in terms of the three female ninjas. She has overall low combo damage, not much in terms of options, almost everything revolves around the roll which activates damage protection miserably. She, like Cyrax, requires a lot of effort to be a force in the game, and there are some expert players here and there who can use her, however she still just doesn't cut it against most top tier characters. Fortunately the female ninjas have strange collision boxes making it harder to juggle them, and maxed out combos are unlikely in most cases, watch for slip ups and counter based on their character design. Some characters cannot get starters on them at all, and both ground attacks after a JP or a straight up JK will whiff, however in the corner a lot of these characters are able to get starters on them, but still some cannot, it depends on how close you are when the jump attack connects. An underused tactic the female ninjas can abuse is by leaving off the last hit of their kick combos if the opponent blocks the first three, and pausing ever so slightly, then doing a HK as they try to rush in, which happens very often. Even if they don't it hits blocked which does slightly more chip damage than finishing out the combo and doesn't give them as much time to recover and counter, setting up other situations in your favor.




The ending talks about the mix-ups I was referring to with Jade and Kitana and how it is worse with Mileena and it has a huge impact on her game. It doesn't elaborate on every scenario of the mix-ups either but its extremely nasty.

I along with many don't understand what has changed over time to make you think she is #13. Glitch jabs? Certainly not. Jabs? No, again, IDK why people think this. And I agree I would simply have almost every other character than her in most situations and that is what it comes down to.

And yes I will break it down by match-up if I have to but GD thats gonna take a lot of time.

 

[dubson]

From UMK:

her Teleport/Drop Kick is a very slow attack and should be used as a total surprise, perhaps no more than once a round, it is easy to scout, predict, and counter, and any time you can use it in a combo, you could do 2 or 3 more hits with something else resulting in higher damage.

The Sai Shot is still spammable as it was in MKII in terms of speed, however it is not as effective. The Prophet says "It looks like she's aiming at airplanes or something with them." What he means is, they are way too high in the air when she releases so they are easy to avoid, and he would be right.

 

[Juggs]

I along with many don't understand what has changed over time to make you think she is #13. Glitch jabs? Certainly not. Jabs? No, again, IDK why people think this. And I agree I would simply have almost every other character than her in most situations and that is what it comes down to.

And yes I will break it down by match-up if I have to but GD thats gonna take a lot of time.

At this point, I will just be talking in circles. There's nothing left but to prove how dominant glitch jabs are. I can't prove how good Mileena is as she's by far MY worst character, and really only players like @MKK hanzo, who use her at high levels, can prove how good she is. But her being my worst character and me still saying she's not terrible should allude to her actually not being garbage tier.

That said, I probably could win with Mileena against all the characters I believe are below her, without ever using a special move. Woot, another challenge I guess. Can Juggs win with his worst character doing nothing but normals/auto combos?? Find out next time on YOU EM KAY THREEEE!

 

[dubson]

At this point, I will just be talking in circles. There's nothing left but to prove how dominant glitch jabs are. I can't prove how good Mileena is as she's by far MY worst character, and really only players like @MKK hanzo, who use her at high levels, can prove how good she is. But her being my worst character and me still saying she's not terrible should allude to her actually not being garbage tier.

That said, I probably could win with Mileena against all the characters I believe are below her, without ever using a special move. Woot, another challenge I guess. Can Juggs win with his worst character doing nothing but normals/auto combos?? Find out next time on YOU EM KAY THREEEE!

Well based on this statement alone, Jade is the exact same character if your not going to use moves or combos. Worse moves and combos anyway so no loss. Since your just using jabs. Jade has the same jabs

 

[mortal_jason]

Kung Lao, Bro, every character falls into that category. When making a tier list, you have to basically assume its 2 robots (cpu) fighting each other, because it has to be frame exact every reaction optimal damage and set-ups. It's nice to have specialists for characters, for maybe reasonable or "realistic" consistency but that would just be theoretical as there would inevitably be human error but a true tier list would be with computers…. So you can't assume Reptile won't be doing his infinite and Kung Lao won't be doing his, or one or the other because one of them is harder than the other. It has to be fair for all characters in all situations.

Experience isn't based on offline, online, what state, what ever. Its from playing the game. And that can be done online to fight amongst the best players and isn't to say that training in the lab or any fighting doesn't occur offline. Information is information….

Jason also lives in the midwest and he primarily plays online as he doesn't have any local kompetition. Assuming he would be worse in person offline because his setting isn't exactly like yours (offline) wouldn't really be realistic or fair… The point is he is going to and willing to fight anyone offline or online in MK2 for money, based on his experience albeit online. Online has a lot of kompetition. It is also a convenient way to fight if you don't have access to local kompetition. Fighting others in the same country isn't That bad, its when you start crossing countries. You guys are all used to fighting each other so it would be nice if you guys could fly up here for a major as well like NEC or ECT, and if you guys will I will have to and ded will have to, and @umk_p1 and the russians will have to, and everyone will have to

Seriously though, Im considering canceling my Evo trip to go to NEC or ECT or something. I've been to Evo multiple times, never been to any of those NE tournaments. If anyone is going to Evo, let me know.

I think it is safe to say that nearly ever player is better offline.
The only exceptions would be players like trikke or splendourMK9 who only play in 200 ping and are experts at it.
If those guys faced elites in real time, they would be overwhelmed.
And very irritated that people could block in real time.

If there was an MK2 prize money tournament in Chicago I would find a way there.
Kevin592c told me that if MK2 were a sport, I'd be a millionaire.
It is my ultimate dream to be able to tour the States competing for cash.
Bye bye to my regular job!

 

[dubson]

I think it is safe to say that nearly ever player is better offline.
The only exceptions would be players like trikke or splendourMK9 who only play in 200 ping and are experts at it.
If those guys faced elites in real time, they would be overwhelmed.
And very irritated that people could block in real time.

Exactly. Thats why I couldn't say everyone. You also even had to say nearly ever player. Your reason and players are perfect example.

 

[mortal_jason]

At this point, I will just be talking in circles. There's nothing left but to prove how dominant glitch jabs are. I can't prove how good Mileena is as she's by far MY worst character, and really only players like @MKK hanzo, who use her at high levels, can prove how good she is. But her being my worst character and me still saying she's not terrible should allude to her actually not being garbage tier.

That said, I probably could win with Mileena against all the characters I believe are below her, without ever using a special move. Woot, another challenge I guess. Can Juggs win with his worst character doing nothing but normals/auto combos?? Find out next time on YOU EM KAY THREEEE!

You guys both make good points.
I base my opinion that Mileena is #22 on the fact that I am a Mileena specialist in MK2.
The translation to UMK3 is not that difficult, and I've been using her on UMK3 for a long time.
I do sick things with Mileena but still have a hard time winning with her.
I win way more with Jade and my Jade isn't as skilled.

However I have played an elite UMK3 Mileena and he blew my mind.
Can't remember who it was, but that Mileena was definitely harder to face than any elite Jades I've been up against.

 

[Juggs]

I think it is safe to say that nearly ever player is better offline.

It's not about just being better offline. It's about worse players having a better chance against better players online, as oppose to offline. A lot of the higher level aspects of any fighter are lost online most of the time. Fundamentals, spacing, footsies, whiff punishing, punishing in general, anti airs, option selects, footsies, reads, reactions, footsies, and the list goes on.. oh yeah and also footsies.

 

[dubson]

You guys both make good points.

However I have played an elite UMK3 Mileena and he blew my mind.
Can't remember who it was, but that Mileena was definitely harder to face than any elite Jades I've been up against.

Might have been @Kreust79 (Kompressor on PSN) he has an excellent Mileena. Definitely one of the best Mileenas on PSN. I would consider him a specialist, for sure.

Sounds like you need to fight some elite Jades…

 

[dubson]

It's not about just being better offline. It's about worse players having a better chance against better players online, as oppose to offline. A lot of the higher level aspects of any fighter are lost online most of the time. Fundamentals, spacing, footsies, whiff punishing, punishing in general, anti airs, option selects, footsies, reads, reactions, footsies, and the list goes on.. oh yeah and also footsies.

Not… at all. Same game. Just slower and choppier. And not in good connections, your acting like were on dial up 56k. It isn't as bad as your acting it would be to take away things like footsies, jeez lol. Lag, yes, but its the same game with the same fundamentals… It IS possible to have great connections, ya know.

 

[Juggs]

Not… at all. Same game. Just slower and choppier. And not in good connections, your acting like were on dial up 56k. It isn't as bad as your acting it would be to take away things like footsies, jeez lol. Lag, yes, but its the same game with the same fundamentals… It IS possible to have great connections, ya know.

I didn't say there were different fundamentals, I said having good fundamentals isn't very relevant. The game is indeed much different online than offline, which is true for virtually every fighter. Talk to any top player in any fighter, they would agree. Online is for practice and fun, which isn't a bad thing at all. You can learn a lot, get better at match-ups, become a great player, all of that. But I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying here.

Imagine playing Michael Jordan back when he was in his prime in Basketball. You challenge him to a BBall match outside, in rather poor weather conditions. It's not raining, but it's windy and there's no clouds in the sky so the sun is shining brightly. Also, MJ is used to playing in the NBA, where winning and trying your absolute best matters. He's not going to try his hardest in this challenge because it's casual for him and he knows he won't be able to play his best in the poor conditions anyway. Even if he decides to try his hardest, it doesn't really take away from my point.

MJ will probably win, actually, it's a very slim chance he won't win. However, you have a much higher chance beating MJ in these conditions, than what he's used to playing, in the NBA. Like I said, that isn't to say he will lose, he probably won't, but worse players than him have a better chance in these conditions than they would otherwise.

You would probably then say "why wouldn't the better conditions be better for both players?", which is what you already are saying, so I'll respond to that. No one would argue MJ isn't the better player, well maybe some, but most wouldn't. He's already proven himself, while the challenger is trying to prove themselves through him, in a challenge that doesn't really mean anything or one he's not even taking very seriously. In raw skill, MJ is clearly better, so when the conditions are perfect, there's no way a worse skilled player could ever beat MJ, it's nearly impossible. However, when you add unpredictable and random factors, it closes the gap and makes it to where the challenger has a higher chance of winning, because it's no longer based on pure BBall skill, other factors are put into play.

This is my point, and it's not even my opinion either, it's actually objective.

 

[nwo]

@Juggs I agree with what you just said. I'm a master at summing things up in a nut shell.

The potential for the highest results aren't there, so the better player is being cheated more.

 

[Juggs]

@Juggs I agree with what you just said. I'm a master at summing things up in a nut shell.

The potential for the highest results aren't there, so the better player is being cheated more.

Yeah, I was going to say there's a much easier way to put it, but when I started typing I just kept going, lmao.

I'm definitely an advocate of online and know how good you can become by playing online. Without it, I would be terrible at UMK3 along with many other games. Online gives you the opportunity to play against many different players and playstyles, there's simply nothing else like it. You can train and level up much faster online because there's so much variety, you'll play against a vast majority of the roster and learn most match-ups.

However, you cannot really prove undeniably who is better through online play. This discussion has been going on for ever and it's been done to death over the years. I think one of the problems has always been that online players think that when offline players are saying you can't prove yourself online, that it somehow discredits them or their skill. Which isn't the case at all. But the point of the matter is that there's far too many variables online for it to be a solid proving ground, and there's even sometimes lopsided connections where for instance one player can have little delay while the other player has a lot of delay.

You can be competitive online, of course. Everything is just watered down and neither player will ever really be at their max potential, which makes it automatically not genuine and not an accurate portrayal of anything other than who is better at adapting to lag/delay. Which I'll happily admit I am not good at adapting to lag, it's the weakest part of my game online, which is why I don't like doing challenges online.

 

[ded]

Yes really. People have always said you were great, but based on what you have said in this thread, that simply cannot be true.

#shotsfired

haha, of course it's not true, people lie. just make your own tier list and don't call me for a discussion then. it's simple. i'm too old to participate in internet ego threads.

one of the few usa players that i thought are really good while playing the game was @marvirrasta and i'm surprised no one brings this guy to the discussion, but oh well...let's put kitana N5 because aaFan, Lao at mid-tier because gjabs are so broken, and Sheeva as mid-tier...because nonsense ^_^

@MKK hanzo love ya man, waiting for my pdfs still btw.

 

[mortal_jason]

Might have been @Kreust79 (Kompressor on PSN) he has an excellent Mileena. Definitely one of the best Mileenas on PSN. I would consider him a specialist, for sure.

Sounds like you need to fight some elite Jades…

No it wasn't Kompressor.
He lives outside the USA, I don't play him.

I've played @NoDoubt 's Jade so I have faced both elite Mileenas and Jades.
Mileena was harder to anticipate and pin down.
Jade is an easier character to read.
I still don't personally believe Mileena is better but my mind is open.
Love the discussions!

Did someone call my name? Thought I heard "MJ" called....

Amen to the lag stuff.
It also must be stated that there are times when connections ARE as perfect online as offline.
It's rare.
But online is not always shit.
I've played many times in near-perfect to perfect connections.
Would have never gotten elite in MK2 without that because it's how I learned AAs, jab, counters, "footsies", big combos, etc.

I get miffed when I lose matches because of even half a second of delay lag- it's bullshit.
However it is the nature of the beast.
And I am grateful that I can play online as opposed to no one at all!

 

[mortal_jason]

haha, of course it's not true, people lie. just make your own tier list and don't call me for a discussion then. it's simple. i'm too old to participate in internet ego threads.

one of the few usa players that i thought are really good while playing the game was @marvirrasta and i'm surprised no one brings this guy to the discussion, but oh well...let's put kitana N5 because aaFan, Lao at mid-tier because gjabs are so broken, and Sheeva as mid-tier...because nonsense ^_^

@MKK hanzo love ya man, waiting for my pdfs still btw.

You're probably the coolest dude on this site.
Love your posts, and of course, always enjoy the combo vids!

 

[Juggs]

haha, of course it's not true, people lie. just make your own tier list and don't call me for a discussion then. it's simple. i'm too old to participate in internet ego threads.

one of the few usa players that i thought are really good while playing the game was @marvirrasta and i'm surprised no one brings this guy to the discussion, but oh well...let's put kitana N5 because aaFan, Lao at mid-tier because gjabs are so broken, and Sheeva as mid-tier...because nonsense ^_^

@MKK hanzo love ya man, waiting for my pdfs still btw.

Us not agreeing doesn't mean I don't value your opinion. I want everyone's opinion, and I know you disagree with me on certain things so I wanted you in here. This didn't start as an ego thread, just kinda devolved into that when @dubson said he beat me 6 years ago, lol. And the hype needs to come back to UMK3, so I just went with it. I don't mind being the "bad guy" or whatever, as long as it gets people more interested in watching or playing, I'm all for it.

Marv was one of the best, but he speaks very little english and doesn't come to this site often or at all. He quit UMK3 awhile ago as well. I mean, one of my best recorded matches was against Marv, the one I've posted about 5 million times.

 

[dubson]

Us not agreeing doesn't mean I don't value your opinion. I want everyone's opinion, and I know you disagree with me on certain things so I wanted you in here. This didn't start as an ego thread, just kinda devolved into that when @dubson said he beat me 6 years ago, lol. And the hype needs to come back to UMK3, so I just went with it. I don't mind being the "bad guy" or whatever, as long as it gets people more interested in watching or playing, I'm all for it.

Marv was one of the best, but he speaks very little english and doesn't come to this site often or at all. He quit UMK3 awhile ago as well. I mean, one of my best recorded matches was against Marv, the one I've posted about 5 million times.

Don't try and put this on me bud with your ridiculous claims and that long ass post I didn't even finish. You just love to argue, even when you don't even know what your arguing about. Basically, you started a Huge argument for no reason with no knowledge or experience of the subject (which I knew it). Don't make points that you can't even explain or understand. You started this whole thing then admitted you suck with Mileena and Jade and that you don't even know what your talking about. Based it strictly off jabs. Your not even talking about it anymore, because you cant. Typed that long ass story up like none knows offline is obviously superior. The point is some of us aren't afraid of online play. The truth came to light. You shouldn't be giving your opinion on Mileena and Jade on Tier Lists. And you aint beating many more than the 3 people you mentioned FT10 Random for $. Don't create ridiculous claims out of defense to me calling out your knowledge and experience and you won't back yourself into a corner.

YOU started this with not being able to back up your claims on Mileena, creating ridiculous comparisons and claiming that only 3 people could beat you in random ft10 (which is complete BS, with you randoming or the other randoming, your not near that good hell noone is with some of the players in this thread). It was completely absurd. YOU made the challenges, I questioned where your experience and knowledge was coming from.

Everyone knows offline play is superior so your preaching to the choir for no reason… were talking about practicality here. Cant play offline in a tournament but maybe once or twice a year. Its not like we live in the same town and have the luxury to play casuals offline. We wouldn't even be discussing online, then.

Your the one who ruined your own thread with that nonsense. The truth came to light though. Your claims on Mileena were all total TRASH.

 

[dubson]

I mean, one of my best recorded matches was against Marv, the one I've posted about 5 million times.

I mean, OK? BRB QUICK Lemme record a Match with Marv so I can make absurd claims. You think your the only one who has played Marv or something?

 

[DWednesday]

It's okay guys, I cried once as well...

 

[dubson]

No it wasn't Kompressor.
He lives outside the USA, I don't play him.

I've played @NoDoubt 's Jade so I have faced both elite Mileenas and Jades.
Mileena was harder to anticipate and pin down.
Jade is an easier character to read.
I still don't personally believe Mileena is better but my mind is open.
Love the discussions!

You have faced A* "Elite" Mileena and Jade, and this is based off of one experience with one player with each character. Loosely dubbed Elite, at that.

Not Mileena(s) and Jade(s) you have faced one of each. And thats not to say one player was simply better than the other, since you don't even know who the Mileena player was. Also NoDoubt may or may not be an elite Jade or Jade specialist, it was only mentioned by one player and he hasn't dubbed himself that….

Being an elite player doesn't make all your characters Elite. A true specialist rarely picks anyone outside that character, and will usually beat a superior overall player in the mirror match or just on average more match-ups with that character.

For example, your an elite player. You are the superior player. But NikiDimos still has the superior Mileena? Or Scorpangel the superior Liu? Or Jax player or whatever. And you see where I am going with this.

Not enough Time or Experience to finalize an opinion… Even though you agree Jade is better lol (and you have one of the best Mileenas on PSN).

 

[Juggs]

Don't try and put this on me bud with your ridiculous claims and that long ass post I didn't even finish. You just love to argue, even when you don't even know what your arguing about. Basically, you started a Huge argument for no reason with no knowledge or experience of the subject (which I knew it). Don't make points that you can't even explain or understand. You started this whole thing then admitted you suck with Mileena and Jade and that you don't even know what your talking about. Based it strictly off jabs. Your not even talking about it anymore, because you cant. Typed that long ass story up like none knows offline is obviously superior. The point is some of us aren't afraid of online play. The truth came to light. You shouldn't be giving your opinion on Mileena and Jade on Tier Lists. And you aint beating many more than the 3 people you mentioned FT10 Random for $. Don't create ridiculous claims out of defense to me calling out your knowledge and experience and you won't back yourself into a corner.

I originally stated I felt Mileena was overrated after @MKK hanzo said the same, and he put her slightly higher on the tier list than I did. So without that post I probably would never said anything about it, unless someone else brought it up.

I don't know what points I'm making that I'm not explaining or don't understand though.

Juggs:
1.) In response to Hanzo, I agreed Mileena was underrated.
2.) As my tier list indicates, I said I believe Mileena is marginally better than Jade.
3.) I also said there's no way she the worst character in the game.
4.) I pointed out that she has the same normals as Jade and Kitana, and based on that fact alone she could never be the worst character in the game.
5.) I stated she has a few more favorable MU's than Mileena, one of the prime reasons I feel she's better and higher on the tier list.
6.) I also said her tools are more versatile in regards to match-ups.

Other than getting into specific match-ups, which you yourself haven't done as well, there's not much else to "explain".

I said my Mileena is my worst character, because she is. I don't MrIGottBase tier lists on how well I perform with a character, that's not how tier lists work. They're based on match-ups and tools, without taking player skill or factoring in the player at all. I know how Mileena works, I've used her and played against her. I know a lot of her good and bad match-ups. I don't need to be a Mileena expert to comment on her tier placement. That said, a Mileena expert, @MKK hanzo actually put her HIGHER than I did. That should have stopped the entire "Mileena is garbage tier" nonsense.

YOU started this with not being able to back up your claims on Mileena, creating ridiculous comparisons and claiming that only 3 people could beat you in random ft10 (which is complete BS, with you randoming or the other randoming, your not near that good hell noone is with some of the players in this thread). It was completely absurd. YOU made the challenges, I questioned where your experience and knowledge was coming from.

Again, no "claim" I made wasn't backed up or explained. I mentioned that only 3 people could beat me in a ft10 random MM as a joke, regardless if I was serious or not, it was in direct response to you saying you beat me with Jade 6 years ago when I was not at all good at the game. And I based the challenge off of the responses in this thread, really nothing else. Anyone who says "Glitch Jabs aren't that big of a deal" will never be able to beat me or any other top player who uses GJ's or knows how to beat them. It's actually pretty simple.

Everyone knows offline play is superior so your preaching to the choir for no reason… were talking about practicality here. Cant play offline in a tournament but maybe once or twice a year. Its not like we live in the same town and have the luxury to play casuals offline. We wouldn't even be discussing online, then.

Again, you missed the point entirely, and not taking in the context of my post and what I responding to. I wasn't just openly stating offline > online, I would deserve the captain obvious award if that was the case. My post was in response to you against the claim that worse players don't have a better chance against better players when online factors come into play. It's just not an accurate statement, so I felt obligated to post my beautiful story.

Your the one who ruined your own thread with that nonsense. The truth came to light though. Your claims on Mileena were all total TRASH.

This thread is much better now, so I don't know what you're talking about here.

I mean, OK? BRB QUICK Lemme record a Match with Marv so I can make absurd claims. You think your the only one who has played Marv or something?

You're clearly angry, because what you said makes zero sense in response to what I said. I said, in response to @ded wondering why Marv is never mentioned in these discussions, that yeah, he should be mentioned, he just never comes to TYM or plays UMK3 anymore. To end the post, I mentioned that one of my best match videos was against Marv, so I of course respect him as a player. In response to that, you post the above, which makes no sense. lol?

 

[dubson]

Glitch Jabs matter a lot (I know I didn't say they don't matter), I don't think your seeing it how ded was intending either.

Every character gets GJ's though, not just the ones with "great jabs" get moved up (Jade would get better too SHE HAS THE SAME JABS and is a better character and she has much more "tools" than Mileena, you don't ever elaborate on what has been discovered that makes her better than Jade or which match-ups either, this is based off of Hanzo Clearly, YOU made the claim YOU have to defend it YOUR in the minority in your opinion, so if your going to make a point for someone know the point), and people with average or weak jabs stay the same or go down, it doesn't work like that. Your not going to beat any top player only using jabs, regardless of what character they are.. And the statement that based on her jabs alone she isn't the worst in the game alone, is just your opinion, and that's fine, but it is completely invalid and not how a tier list works (which the record must show). And the point is that even though Mileena has great Jabs, that doesn't bump her up to 13 alone and past Jade. The fact is you can post your opinion, but when debating it you clearly needed Hanzo to do it for you because you had no valid points on why she is all of a sudden higher, and higher than Jade who has the same jabs and is simply a better character in this game. All you did was take my points about Jade, and say them about Mileena lol. It doesn't change things as drastically as your implying. They have been known for a very long time. If you want to make a jab tier list go ahead but this is a real tier list. Its the iAF that really moves Kitana up so drastically, not the GJ's.

Hanzo also plays in a very limited, closed environment and that should be on the record. His is just one opinion, and that's fine. But let him make the points.