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Does EVO already feel different for you this year? Here's why.

I don't know why people keep bringing this up when history has shown that balance has had little to do with tournament longevity. I mean, what was the top SF game at EVO before IV came out? 3rd Strike, a game notorious for having only 4 truly viable character among which 2 are generally better than the others. And before you say that this is only because there were no other games, recall that 3S was actually dropped and wasn't at B4 (the precursor to EVO) before coming back after the Japanese showed how much the game had even with the same 4 characters. Same thing with MvC2, that game's metagame didn't even change until 2 years in when people broke Magneto and Sentinel and they went from mid to top tier.

Looking at the competitive history of Capcom games, it's been clear that you only need a top tier of 4 for the game to be considered good enough for years of competitive play. To quote Maj (the guy who wrote the Footsies Handbook).

Citing balance issues is pretty much just an excuse for a community that doesn't want to put in the work to keep their game alive.
this is what I've been saying, great evidence from the past.
 

Killphil

A prop on the stage of life.
I'm being generous with 8, other people have been saying there are 6. And obviously I didn't travel but I didn't realize that made me ineligible to have an opinion.
In the context of this discussion, it does. There are ways of supporting beyond traveling and competing, but slandering the game with the negative stigma "it's only got so and so character that's viable" isn't one of them.
 
The excuses/ whining about mk9 make me sick lol. I have watched multiple fighting games on stream with high lvl play, and I didn't hear one commentator for a game not mention an issue/ something annoying about the game. Every fighting game has ridiculous stuff:
*SF (vortexes)
*Marvel (x-factor)
*Mortal Kombat (resets)
*Injustice (50/50s)
etc., like on some real stuff, I dnt see daigo and Justin wong threatening to quit sf because they "hate vortexes).
Well.....I agree every game has stupid stuff, but for the record: x-factor got some flak in the games early days but I haven't heard too many people complaining about it last time I watched. Its a comeback mechanic and people I think have largely made peace with it. Zero, Soulfist hidden missles, and Vergil are a much bigger problem for the game than X-factor on its own is.

I don't know why people keep bringing this up when history has shown that balance has had little to do with tournament longevity. I mean, what was the top SF game at EVO before IV came out? 3rd Strike, a game notorious for having only 4 truly viable character among which 2 are generally better than the others. And before you say that this is only because there were no other games, recall that 3S was actually dropped and wasn't at B4 (the precursor to EVO) before coming back after the Japanese showed how much the game had even with the same 4 characters. Same thing with MvC2, that game's metagame didn't even change until 2 years in when people broke Magneto and Sentinel and they went from mid to top tier.

Looking at the competitive history of Capcom games, it's been clear that you only need a top tier of 4 for the game to be considered good enough for years of competitive play. To quote Maj (the guy who wrote the Footsies Handbook).

Citing balance issues is pretty much just an excuse for a community that doesn't want to put in the work to keep their game alive.
See right here....this is why I'm following this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight as I was never a hardcore MK player....but this is fascinating to me. Balance itself may still be a factor...but its clearly not the only one.
Query: I never gave a rats ass about Street Fighter X Tekken. What killed that one?
 

Miss Kanzuki

*KANZUKI GOON SQUAD*
I admit, I felt disappointed like a girl that didn't get asked to the dance by boy she wanted when no MK was announced :(
 

Zangrief

Noob
I don't understand why we don't just mix-up the rules for MK9 tourneys. Why aren't there more Low-Tier Tournaments?

Why is everyone stuck on this notion that there's ONE AND ONLY ONE way to play the game? Why the fuck haven't we had a Stryker Only tournament yet? I'm all for serious competition but DOES ANYONE HERE LIKE FUN ANYMORE
DOES ANYONE REMEMBER LAUGHTER?!?

 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I'd like to add that we would still be playing SFIV even if it didn't get updated. Same with Marvel 3.
Not as much, and nowhere near the same level. You can keep playing those games KNOWING a newer version will come out in a year. Not so much with NRS games.
 

haketh

Noob
See right here....this is why I'm following this thread. I don't have a dog in this fight as I was never a hardcore MK player....but this is fascinating to me. Balance itself may still be a factor...but its clearly not the only one.
Query: I never gave a rats ass about Street Fighter X Tekken. What killed that one?
SFXT 2013 is the best FG Capcom has out right now, SFXT 2012 is one of the worse they've ever put out and the community is a hivemind that doesn't find things out themselves.
 

daddydab32ho

KANO, KANO, KAY-NOOOOOO , KANO (DRAKES VOICE)
MK9 has problems, that's why. MK9 has problems other games don't have and it has a small interest level. In both this community AND others. So why should we be asking people, perfectly comfortable in playing / watch / whatever other games to play / support MK9 just because once upon a time . . . ?

Edit; and for t he record, this is not a big black line that says no one should ever play MK9 ever again, but if the game has had abysmal numbers and hasn't turned u p at half the t ournaments that made it what it was, why should it get back to the big stage?
Excuses!!!!!!
 

daddydab32ho

KANO, KANO, KAY-NOOOOOO , KANO (DRAKES VOICE)
Man, I don't even know why you bother with most of these people, MIT. You have patience, I'll give you that. LOL

It's the same story with most of these people. Trust me. When MK10 is out people will talk about Injustice in nearly the same manner they talk about MK9 now. "Nobody wants to deal with silly interactables, scrubby 50/50s, and character X, Y, and Z." History Tends to repeat Itself!!!!

Just wait.

It's a never ending cycle I've seen take place with this community since MK:A to MKvsDCU.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
I don't know why people keep bringing this up when history has shown that balance has had little to do with tournament longevity. I mean, what was the top SF game at EVO before IV came out? 3rd Strike, a game notorious for having only 4 truly viable character among which 2 are generally better than the others. And before you say that this is only because there were no other games, recall that 3S was actually dropped and wasn't at B4 (the precursor to EVO) before coming back after the Japanese showed how much the game had even with the same 4 characters. Same thing with MvC2, that game's metagame didn't even change until 2 years in when people broke Magneto and Sentinel and they went from mid to top tier.
The community has changed a lot however since ST and 3s. In the modern FGC, where people have all kinds of options for games, every tiny bit of frame data is picked apart, and the stakes are higher than ever, people do not simply always accept a game due to having no other choice.

If none of the popular games were balanced, it'd be a different story -- but now that people know what a balanced game is like (and have a litany of choices) tolerances are much lower.

Mr. Wizard came out and said directly that if Injustice stayed as it was, it wouldn't have been allowed back to EVO. So I don't think it's possible to say that game balance has nothing to do with tournament logevity.
 
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daddydab32ho

KANO, KANO, KAY-NOOOOOO , KANO (DRAKES VOICE)
@MITDJT, So nobody is allowed to dislike MK9 after playing it for 4 fuckin years? Just because you and REO and a bunch of other guys who are REALLY FUCKING GOOD say so and because some o ther game is similarly broken?

okay. You're right, we're the retards.
Signs of weakness... you're probably one of those players who couldn't get good in the game so you wait patiently until people start bashing the game so you can feel better about your Wackness!!!!
 
I don't know why people keep bringing this up when history has shown that balance has had little to do with tournament longevity. I mean, what was the top SF game at EVO before IV came out? 3rd Strike, a game notorious for having only 4 truly viable character among which 2 are generally better than the others. And before you say that this is only because there were no other games, recall that 3S was actually dropped and wasn't at B4 (the precursor to EVO) before coming back after the Japanese showed how much the game had even with the same 4 characters. Same thing with MvC2, that game's metagame didn't even change until 2 years in when people broke Magneto and Sentinel and they went from mid to top tier.

Looking at the competitive history of Capcom games, it's been clear that you only need a top tier of 4 for the game to be considered good enough for years of competitive play. To quote Maj (the guy who wrote the Footsies Handbook).

Citing balance issues is pretty much just an excuse for a community that doesn't want to put in the work to keep their game alive.
You are so wrong and I'm so tired of hearing that poor ass OG argument. Trying to justify imbalance with FGC history is irrelevant because it's an old mentality from another era. A lot of things have changed/evolved since then and the new reality is that if a game has poor balance, poor quality and/or a poor netcode players will simply play a better game because there's no shortage of high quality fighting games today.

You see the difference is that before you had to put up with heavy imbalance because most fighters were like that. It was just the reality back then. But now 3D players can choose to play TTT2, SC, DOA or VF. And 2D players have AE, Marvel, Injustice, MK, KI, KOF, Melee, SG, Dive Kick etc. not counting the numerous anime fighters and upcoming games. There are many many other options.

Let me put it this way: If you can choose between an anime fighter that has a bad netcode + bad training mode + heavy imbalance issues and an anime fighter that has a great netcode, great practice mode and great balance, which one will you choose? Which one will the vast majority of anime players choose? The answer is obvious.


Looking at the competitive history of Capcom games, it's been clear that you only need a top tier of 4 for the game to be considered good enough for years of competitive play. To quote Maj (the guy who wrote the Footsies Handbook).
Underlined part is the key here. A fighting game doesn't have to be balanced to be "good enough". But being balanced is undoubtedly better. There shouldn't even be an argument here. The truth is that no matter what history has shown, 3S would've had a bigger community, more diversity of characters and international player talent, more hype and a longer tournament life if it wasn't a 3 character game. It's as simple as that. To try and defend game imbalance and poor designs with historical facts is just completely missing the point.

Also it was "good enough" back then, but it's no longer good enough in this day and age. Today it's quite common to see a game die 6-9 months after release. There are numerous reasons for that, the main one being that the general playerbase is much more divided than before (because of the saturation of the market and the competition within the same devs). Today Capcom players are divided between AE, Marvel and SFxT. And NRS players are divided between Injustice, MK and KI. When a new interesting game comes out (which seems to be like every month), you lose a bunch of players. It's just a reality.

imo It's too easy to say "Look at this old game, it wasn't balanced at all and still had a good run.". WHO CARES? Because 3S showed that you could have legit competition with only 3 characters that means we should just accept a game's terrible design? It means we shouldn't ask for improvements to practice mode, netcode and balance? What kind of bitchmade mentality is that. So we're supposed to support a game even if it sucks just because we like the franchise, the music and the characters? Bitch.fukken.please.
 
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Not as much, and nowhere near the same level. You can keep playing those games KNOWING a newer version will come out in a year. Not so much with NRS games.
The community has changed a lot however since ST and 3s. In the modern FGC, where people have all kinds of options for games, every tiny bit of frame data is picked apart, and the stakes are higher than ever, people do not simply always accept a game due to having no other choice.

If none of the games were balanced, it'd be a different story -- but now that people know what a balanced game is like, tolerances are much lower.

Mr. Wizard came out and said directly that if Injustice stayed as it was, it wouldn't have been allowed back to EVO. So I don't think it's possible to say that game balance has nothing to do with tournament logevity.
Both of these points in mind, I think the future of Marvel 3 will become an interesting case study. I personally lost the hype a long time ago outside of a few lightning in a bottle moments (ex. justin wong at evo 2013), but its still one of the biggest names in the FGC despite some of these issues. Now that its basically confirmed that there will be no more patches or updating in the future and its highly unlikely that we'll see a Marvel 4.......


Still waiting for a decent NRS fighting game with decent netcode. :coffee:
Allow me to introduce you to Injustice: Gods Among Us. It has very "decent" netcode. Not outstanding....but very "decent".
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Both of these points in mind, I think the future of Marvel 3 will become an interesting case study. I personally lost the hype a long time ago outside of a few lightning in a bottle moments (ex. justin wong at evo 2013), but its still one of the biggest names in the FGC despite some of these issues. Now that its basically confirmed that there will be no more patches or updating in the future and its highly unlikely that we'll see a Marvel 4.......
Yeah, I think one important thing here is that the Capcom Factor only applies to Capcom games. People will play Marvel because it's Marvel; and Street Fighter is the most historic franchise in the fighting game community (after all, it started it) and has some of the world's best-known players. But in today's Capcom-dominated north-american FGC scene, no other game (Including KoF, Tekken, DOA, MK, KI or SC) is safe just because of its name -- and that's been proven over and over.

When Capcom-majority players try out another game, and they feel it's unfair, they simply go back to playing SF and Marvel. So I think MvC will always play by its own set of rules.
 

Minh Giang

aka ChrsitianDMG on Stream
yes, injustice is better, but people don't play mk9 anymore because mk9 is an older game, that's all, when mk10 comes out i bet my car that all of you will say injustice doesn't have footise, interactables can otg, stupid 50/50, etc...
 

Konqrr

MK11 Kabal = MK9 Kitana
I don't know why people keep bringing this up when history has shown that balance has had little to do with tournament longevity. I mean, what was the top SF game at EVO before IV came out? 3rd Strike, a game notorious for having only 4 truly viable character among which 2 are generally better than the others. And before you say that this is only because there were no other games, recall that 3S was actually dropped and wasn't at B4 (the precursor to EVO) before coming back after the Japanese showed how much the game had even with the same 4 characters. Same thing with MvC2, that game's metagame didn't even change until 2 years in when people broke Magneto and Sentinel and they went from mid to top tier.

Looking at the competitive history of Capcom games, it's been clear that you only need a top tier of 4 for the game to be considered good enough for years of competitive play. To quote Maj (the guy who wrote the Footsies Handbook).

Citing balance issues is pretty much just an excuse for a community that doesn't want to put in the work to keep their game alive.
Thank you for this post.