Question D1 or D4 into smoke bomb.

[HD Smoke]

I am wondering if D1 and D4 into SB is completely safe? I see CDjr and KT Smith owning people with it all the time. I use it online and it works great but is it completely safe? Like is it safe from Reptiles dash? I know you can jump over a Smoke bomb but if smoke can be safe after connecting with a d1 and d4 and than throwing a smoke bomb that is just amazing. That would make me think Smoke is definitely top 7 in this game.

 

[THTB]

D1 xx smoke bomb can be jumped out of. It works because it happens so fast when you use d1 to get out of pressure.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

He said he knows you can jump out Smoke Bomb. I believe his question is if the opponent can punish him if they remain blocking after the SB connects. I THINK some characters like Johnny Cage and Reptile can punish it. Well, D1~SB anyways. Even if Cage can't, he'd get an opportunity to get on your face and start his block strings, I imagine. D4~SB is probably safer, but what's the point of it? So much you can do after D4, and I don't think anybody would get caught with a blank SB after D4. Most instinctively crouch block, or remain stand blocking.

And I also believe a character with a fast armor move can connect it before the Smoke Bomb even lands. Sonya is a character that can blow Smoke up if she guesses his D1 game correctly. Yet somehow it's 6-4 in Smoke's favor? There's something I'm not seeing. Oh God, I'm rambling......errrr........Smoke is awesome!

 

[HD Smoke]

Yes Faded thats exactly what my question is. I too think there are a lot of better options than SB after a D4 but its crazy because CDjr and KT Smith tear people up with it. CDjr was getting D1 Smoke Bomb on Crazy Dominican and others at the last tourny and those are some of the best players on the planet. I didnt realize it was so effective but at the same time now that i know it isnt safe i will restrain from using it too much. I thought it was safe because Maxter was talking about how Smoke can D1 and be safe when him and CDjr were talking about tier list and top 5 in game. I agree also Faded with Sonya and Smoke. No way IMO is this match up 6-4 in Smokes favor. It has to be 5-5. I cant see it being 6-4 but if Riu48 or CDjr could explain why its in Smokes favor that would be really cool. The match between them on Sunday was the best match I have ever watched. CDjr and riu48 are top 1 or 2 best players of Smoke and Sonya so if they say its 6-4 Smoke i cant argue i just want to know how. I'd alert them but i dont know how lol so hopefully they see this.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Is there a video of that match you were talking about? Riu and CDjr?

 

[HD Smoke]

It was at Revolution X tournament on sunday. Both players deserve mad respect for putting on such a good game. Go to kombatnetworks streams on twitch tv and find the tournament on sunday. It is on like part 3 towards the end. If you cant find it i will post link when i get back but i think KT has link posted under causal gameplay im not sure

 

[G4S KT]

I am wondering if D1 and D4 into SB is completely safe?

The short answers to this question are "kind of" and "yes". tldr coming up

As an aside, on block, d1 xx SB can be jumped out of in any direction, but on hit it can only be forward jumped, ie crossing you up.

at point blank range, d1 xx SB has 8 or 9 frames of recovery which means that with frame perfect execution many characters can get their jabs or fast advancing specials (FAS) off. FAS will normally punish you (especially reptile dash) but getting jabs off is not so easy. My room mate plays Sektor and even with Sektor's 6 frame jab and prior knowledge of this exact opening, he only manages to punish me %20 of the time. The philosophy of d1 xx SB is that it creates a mind game against high energy opponents that are eager to press buttons. If you find yourself up against an opponent like this, d1 xx SB used as part of your pressure will normally have a high degree of success. Once they learn to respect it, it opens up throw/cross up mix ups. If you're facing down a very cautious or deliberate opponent, you really want to avoid d1 xx SB as pressure, even though it's very tempting. In that situation it will almost alwasy get blocked, they will see the opening and pressure will be reversed. This is no good.

Now, something interesting happens when you examine d4 xx SB.

as another aside, the SB of d4 xx SB is completely unavoidable on hit or block.

the special cancel out of d4 is ridiculously fast, making d4 xx SB pretty sudden and it can catch people off guard. Also, it's much more viable as a pressure tool. At max range, it's nearly impossible to even reverse pressure, let alone punish. This is because of the extra distance. You're way out of range of most normals and with the additional travel time of SB the disadvantage is reduced to, like, -3 or 4. It's also a really good way to bait jump ins, since it's likely they'll jump at you after 1 or 2 of these.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Damn man, KT ... your Smoke is amazing. Just watched some of those casuals against the guy who was Stryker then Scorpion... (didn't have time for the rest)

I definitely need to be using 2 into D1 SB a ton more... and B23!

I have a question though... is the only time you use invisibility after you do 214? (I also noticed you did it pretty much only in the corners)

 

[HD Smoke]

The short answers to this question are "kind of" and "yes". tldr coming up

As an aside, on block, d1 xx SB can be jumped out of in any direction, but on hit it can only be forward jumped, ie crossing you up.

at point blank range, d1 xx SB has 8 or 9 frames of recovery which means that with frame perfect execution many characters can get their jabs or fast advancing specials (FAS) off. FAS will normally punish you (especially reptile dash) but getting jabs off is not so easy. My room mate plays Sektor and even with Sektor's 6 frame jab and prior knowledge of this exact opening, he only manages to punish me %20 of the time. The philosophy of d1 xx SB is that it creates a mind game against high energy opponents that are eager to press buttons. If you find yourself up against an opponent like this, d1 xx SB used as part of your pressure will normally have a high degree of success. Once they learn to respect it, it opens up throw/cross up mix ups. If you're facing down a very cautious or deliberate opponent, you really want to avoid d1 xx SB as pressure, even though it's very tempting. In that situation it will almost alwasy get blocked, they will see the opening and pressure will be reversed. This is no good.

Now, something interesting happens when you examine d4 xx SB.

as another aside, the SB of d4 xx SB is completely unavoidable on hit or block.

the special cancel out of d4 is ridiculously fast, making d4 xx SB pretty sudden and it can catch people off guard. Also, it's much more viable as a pressure tool. At max range, it's nearly impossible to even reverse pressure, let alone punish. This is because of the extra distance. You're way out of range of most normals and with the additional travel time of SB the disadvantage is reduced to, like, -3 or 4. It's also a really good way to bait jump ins, since it's likely they'll jump at you after 1 or 2 of these.

That is beast thanks KT i knew you and cdjr werent just doing d4 into sb for no reason. SB is such a unique projectile i can def see why this works so well. Thanks for all the info and glad i know about the negative side to D1 SB now.

 

[smokey]

d1 smokebomb wasnt ever safe, just hard to punish.

it works on multiple levels however, its good becuase you poke a fuck load, and if with your pokes come the OCCASIONAL smoke bomb followup, they respect your pokes more than they should.

They cant try to do anything after that d1 that isnt crossing you up or blocking, on a hit d1 they can only jump out if they are holding towards jump (from what i recall they get caught if they try to do anything else), and on block your -9 i think, so its going to be tough to punish you properly, but they could atleast get a poke in or some sort of safe movement.

The real meat of d1 smoke bomb comes with the properties of d1 being so good, its used by smoke in loads of situations, and it basically shuts off any attempt to counter poke without great risk to your own personal health, so opponents wanting to push buttons just really cant.

moonwalking at full d4 range of (for examples sake) sonya and, as seen by CDjr a bit, smoke bombing poke happy characters is pure filth

 

[G4S KT]

Damn man, KT ... your Smoke is amazing. Just watched some of those casuals against the guy who was Stryker then Scorpion... (didn't have time for the rest)

I definitely need to be using 2 into D1 SB a ton more... and B23!
I have a question though... is the only time you use invisibility after you do 214? (I also noticed you did it pretty much only in the corners)

Thanks yo!

I like to go with invisibility sometimes after a corner combo (they all end in 214) because you get it for free and it fucks with people's heads badly. Theyll normally either panic and do something punishable or just block allowing you to continue block pressure.

Occasionally I'll also do it midscreen after a forward throw; you get it for free there too.

I should be using it more. If you're playing runaway smoke you can normally slip it in and the opponent won't react in time to do anything about it.

Invis is so fucking good. One of the best baits in the game. I just wish he had damage boost like reptile does. LOL reset combos with damage boost.

 

[GamerBlake90]

RM_GAMER landed the d4 to Smoke Bomb tactic on me once and it caught me by surprise. Generally you have no reason to block low against Smoke, but given that the d4 seems to grant advantage on hit...some players may begin to think differently now. Which is, of course, the whole point behind this mindfuck.

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

Thanks yo!

I like to go with invisibility sometimes after a corner combo (they all end in 214) because you get it for free and it fucks with people's heads badly. Theyll normally either panic and do something punishable or just block allowing you to continue block pressure.

Occasionally I'll also do it midscreen after a forward throw; you get it for free there too.

I should be using it more. If you're playing runaway smoke you can normally slip it in and the opponent won't react in time to do anything about it.

Invis is so fucking good. One of the best baits in the game. I just wish he had damage boost like reptile does. LOL reset combos with damage boost.

Alright so after 214 in the corner and after a forward throw. How come you can't get invis after 214 for free mid-screen?

Thanks man, I am going to try to throw in invisibility a lot more.

 

[smokey]

Alright so after 214 in the corner and after a forward throw. How come you can't get invis after 214 for free mid-screen?

Thanks man, I am going to try to throw in invisibility a lot more.

214 anywhere on hit leaves you with time to invis safely

 

[DirtyBalls]

RM_GAMER thats me lol. yea d4 sb is really good. I havent tested much but i have done d4 sb like 5 times in a row in a match once while my opponent tries to attack. In my experience all ur opponent can do is jump or do a fast advancing special.

 

[RiBBz22]

Alright so after 214 in the corner and after a forward throw. How come you can't get invis after 214 for free mid-screen?

Thanks man, I am going to try to throw in invisibility a lot more.

Lol, invisibility definitely seems to bring out the stupid in people. Especially in the corner people seem to try to jump out of pressure way more than they normally would so njp is a pretty decent option that leads to massive corner damage and pretty much either the round being over or your opponent wasting two bars on a breaker.

 

[RTM2004]

Sonya is a character that can blow Smoke up if she guesses his D1 game correctly. Yet somehow it's 6-4 in Smoke's favor? There's something I'm not seeing. Oh God, I'm rambling......errrr........Smoke is awesome!

I played some Smoke players on PS3 last night with Sonya. It might slightly be in Smoke's favor because his pokes are very dangerous, D1~Smoke Bomb or D4~Smoke Bomb or B2,3,Smoke Bomb or his Sweep followed by 3,D1,2 pressure up close forces Sonya to block standing and must not crouch block. If Sonya gets the right reads on Smoke, she can Dive Kick his poking game which I blew some Smoke players BUT there were some Smoke players that effectively used Ex Smoke Away to sustain his pressure game with B2,3 and 3,D1,2 and sweep game. I never play any Smoke players on XBL so I was actually surprised running into many on PS3 the last few days. I think if Smoke ever gets nerfed then Sonya will be more favored but right now I slightly see Smoke being very dangerous for Sonya, his fast B2 overhead is gdlk his direct answer for her D4 small hitbox. Against Mileena his B2 is really good to use against her but he can't run away from her, he can run away from Sonya though.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

I played some Smoke players on PS3 last night with Sonya. It might slightly be in Smoke's favor because his pokes are very dangerous, D1~Smoke Bomb or D4~Smoke Bomb or B2,3,Smoke Bomb or his Sweep followed by 3,D1,2 pressure up close forces Sonya to block standing and must not crouch block. If Sonya gets the right reads on Smoke, she can Dive Kick his poking game which I blew some Smoke players BUT there were some Smoke players that effectively used Ex Smoke Away to sustain his pressure game with B2,3 and 3,D1,2 and sweep game. I never play any Smoke players on XBL so I was actually surprised running into many on PS3 the last few days. I think if Smoke ever gets nerfed then Sonya will be more favored but right now I slightly see Smoke being very dangerous for Sonya, his fast B2 overhead is gdlk his direct answer for her D4 small hitbox. Against Mileena his B2 is really good to use against her but he can't run away from her, he can run away from Sonya though.

I do all that. Now I'm not saying Sonya has the advantage, but like you said, if she guesses right, Smoke gets blown up and vice-versa. Seems 5-5 imo.

BTW, were the Smokes you played RM Smoke, RM GAMER, or Detroit? They're like the PS3 elite Smoke trio. lol.

 

[RTM2004]

I played RM Smoke then some TWISTED clan players then some 88 clan players then some randoms in Ranked Match who had challenging Smoke players. I don't see Detroit online when I'm on but his Ranked Match record is like 1400/36 on Leaderboards... an outstanding scary record if you ask me. I'm actually scared to play against his Shang Tsung IF I ever run into him on there. I can see your point with Smoke/Sonya.. it could be Smoke 5.1 and Sonya 4.9 only because his poke~Smoke Bomb game is very, very dangerous even if she can Dive Kick his animation of the Smoke Bomb may or may not still get her to fall through which happened a couple times, I tried to Dive Kick his D1/D3 and still fell through (even when my Dive Kick animation was already in place). It might be different offline, I'm not sure but his poke~Smoke Bomb is real frightening.

 

[FrothyOmen]

b23 is not an answer to Sonya's d4 at all. Sonya will hit smoke out of it with another d4 before he can ever get in range.

 

[Faded Dreams V]

I played RM Smoke then some TWISTED clan players then some 88 clan players then some randoms in Ranked Match who had challenging Smoke players. I don't see Detroit online when I'm on but his Ranked Match record is like 1400/36 on Leaderboards... an outstanding scary record if you ask me. I'm actually scared to play against his Shang Tsung IF I ever run into him on there. I can see your point with Smoke/Sonya.. it could be Smoke 5.1 and Sonya 4.9 only because his poke~Smoke Bomb game is very, very dangerous even if she can Dive Kick his animation of the Smoke Bomb may or may not still get her to fall through which happened a couple times, I tried to Dive Kick his D1/D3 and still fell through (even when my Dive Kick animation was already in place). It might be different offline, I'm not sure but his poke~Smoke Bomb is real frightening.

I don't think Detroit plays Shang much online. The guy plays the entire roster incredibly well. His Smoke is one of the best I've seen.

And the D1~Smoke Bomb is like Smoke's only real lag advantage. The Smoke Bomb anyways. It may connect even if you try jumping out or divekicking. Offline, you'd need to EX it to catch them as they're about to leap into the air. That said, Smoke is absolutely fucking garbage in 1 (and some 2) dot lag. Holy shit. People freely jumping out of D1 and crossing me over, me not being able to AA at all (killing, like, most of his game), footsies being thrown out the window, and general input/wakeup bs. My god, my connection was so crappy the last two days, he became almost unplayable. ;__;

Woah...where did that come from. Umm....*Smokes Away*

 

[matterovermind]

KT and CDjr have definitely inspired me to pick Smoke back up....

My question: how can I practice the following with smoke in training mode: standing 1 (or is it standing 2?) AA and d1 into smoke bomb?
I know training mode is limited in features but if someone could recommend some specific training mode settings to get this down, i would appreciate it.

 

[FrothyOmen]

If you just want to get the motion of 2 > 2 > d1 xx bomb down, simply set the AI to jump and do that. Obviously you'll need to practice with a human to learn spacing and such, but the motion of inputting the antiair can be developed vs an AI no problem.

 

[matterovermind]

Thanks! Will put in some work today.

 

[G4S KT]

Thanks! Will put in some work today.

Also experiment with the spacing of standing 2. the hitbox of it is down right retarded. Jump ins are completely useless against Smoke unless you're Cyber Sub. Sonya can sometimes get away with a dive kick but not always.