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Boon, "Which fighter do you feel is MOST in need of help to compete better with the others?"

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
No I think Raven is really good.
But she also has a lack of a good reliable wakeup, which is why you said Ares was useless.

Just pointing out that just because a character has bad wakeups does not make them useless.

I also feel you are biased as a Flash player because his oki game is sick as hell.
 

AYSAMO

Noob
But she also has a lack of a good reliable wakeup, which is why you said Ares was useless.

Just pointing out that just because a character has bad wakeups does not make them useless.

I also feel you are biased as a Flash player because his oki game is sick as hell.

Dude his footsie game is terrible, his wakeups are worthless, his trait needs to be reworked, his zoning isn't even good. Honestly explain to me why you think this character is good? I can't even understand why you're defending this character.

Raven has amazing zoning, her trait is fucking great and makes everything she does safe basically, she has decent mixups, good footsies, and good damage. She's basically Ares if he wasn't a fat turd.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Dude his footsie game is terrible, his wakeups are worthless, his trait needs to be reworked, his zoning isn't even good. Honestly explain to me why you think this character is good? I can't even understand why you're defending this character.

Raven has amazing zoning, her trait is fucking great and makes everything she does safe basically, she has decent mixups, good footsies, and good damage. She's basically Ares if he wasn't a fat turd.
I wasnt defending the char., just wanted to clarify that point you made.

Also not everything in her trait makes her safe.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
HawkGirl.
man gtfo here!

Don't listen to him boon!!!
AHAHAHAHA!! Oh God yes listen to him and make this character become bullshit lol.

Lets give her a 6 frame startup on mace toss*trollface*

In all seriousness though who needs the MOST help? Likely Shazam.

However who could use buffs is a MUCH larger lists. I think the whole cast needs mobility buffs to walk speeds for starters, and I'd like to see several strings across the roster improved to give folks better combo options and more starter options to combos period.

Buffs over nerfs here, but if we're picking and choosing roster to polish...Shazam.
I believe you; because I think every character is good. But he's asking who the worst one out of all these good characters is. Bane's a candidate for that.
He aint a candidate for shit bro. He's just not easy mode, but I swear that character can ruin some folks in this game. You play him patient. You play him punish style. You play him in your face. You do NOT play poke normals with him...dude is venom, armor, and wakeup suffocation. Once he is in you can't get him off and his wakeups are some of the BEST in the game and hard to read because he has 3 viable ones that all work differently and need different reactions to deal with.

One decent punish from Bane and he can likely take your life bar in the next moment's wakeup mixup or put you near enough to death to turn your "blowup" into a choke.

Watch some footage of Mustard's Bane and chat with Doombawks...you'll discover that he is a scary thing in a match you cannot take lightly. He honestly is his own thing...no one functions like he does in their strategy in the entire game.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Blindman came in like 9th place with Raven at EVO. Definitely Top16 with her out of 650 entrants. Lobo, Shazam, Joker, Lex, these are characters we can talk about. Raven is NOT the character most in need of help.
Where did I say anything about buffing Raven?

Can you people even read?
 
I don't think Bane could be considered for this, but he needs a bit of help. The biggest problem is that few people play him so few people understand the matchup. Bane plays by a completely different set of rules than the rest of the cast. Nothing you do against other characters applies when you fight Bane. Once people figure that out, he might be hurting a bit more.

A few of his moves could use tweaking. That's about all you'd get the character council on board to change. There is debate about other things, but it is quite possible Bane would go to god tier if buffed too much.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
I don't think Bane could be considered for this, but he needs a bit of help. The biggest problem is that few people play him so few people understand the matchup. Bane plays by a completely different set of rules than the rest of the cast. Nothing you do against other characters applies when you fight Bane. Once people figure that out, he might be hurting a bit more.

A few of his moves could use tweaking. That's about all you'd get the character council on board to change. There is debate about other things, but it is quite possible Bane would go to god tier if buffed too much.
He'd go to God tier if buffed even a little in the wrong area. If any of the wrong strings got frame buffs to startup , recovery on block or priority it could be devastating for folks with his armor and ability to stay in and reset so efficiently. Probably has the easiest splat stand reset to time in the game.

Watch the back and forth of Frosty vs Pig of the Hut and see what I mean...he's a tight match vs folks. Give him a few more tweaks to the wrong tools and he will ruin lives.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0-4CHNPrP6I
 

migosan

MK Philippines / Injustice Philippines
so its mostly lobo and lex, if i may add, ill shoo in joker and bane...hmm i think shazam is good
 
It is interesting if this discussion is framed not just as who could use buffs, but who needs to be really dramatically retooled: what one character should NRS go back to the drawing board with and significantly revamp? If that is the case, I think it might be Shazam. Here's why:

The Lobo community has reached a pretty solid consensus on a handful of buffs to fix him. Make this easier to link, fix the whiff on this, give faster armor on this, mostly minor things except the trait. The trait bites b/c you get one nuclear shell that adds 4% to the damage. Wow. Yet, the suggestion is to give the shell armor-breaking properties (to deal with Grundy and some other awful MUs) and maybe let Lobo stack a couple shells. 5-6 changes, most minor, and the Lobo players are satisfied.

Half the Bane players say Bane doesn't help. Ok.

I'm not as up on them, but the Lex and Joker communities also seem to have some decent consensus on some minor tweaks, although Joker's trait seems to still be an issue. Joker would probably be the runner-up, although it seems like a few tweaks could go a long way.

Not AT ALL putting the Shazam community on blast, but there seems to be a lot less consensus on how to make him work. Close to no consensus compared to others like Lobo. That just tells me there are some fundamental problems if everyone has different answers as to what he needs. Shazam is supposed to be awesome. The idea for Shazam was literally someone thinking to make a character as powerful as Superman whose alter ego was a young boy. Shazam isn't as good as Superman in IGAU, not nearly. He isn't even nearly as good as his counterpart, Black Adam.

And he's the only good guy who is poop-tier, except for our 'hero' Scorpion, lol.
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
ohhhh ive never seen his MU's how many bad ones does he have?
I'm sure people are going to disagree with me, but Ares loses to Superman, Black Adam, Wonder Woman, Nightwing, Grundy, Batgirl, Scorpion, MMH, Batman, GL, Deathstroke, Aquaman, Joker, Killer Frost, and Flash.
These are all matches I've played a bunch offline against competent players and feel comfortable explaining and defending. They range from slight disadvantage to near unwinnable, but I think Ares definitely has a disadvantage in all of them. In addition to those I suspect he loses to Bane, Harley, and Cyborg but I don't have enough experience to say with any certainty.
The only match ups I really feel comfortable saying he wins are Hawkgirl, Shazaam, and Lobo. And I know a bunch of Ares players actually disagree with me and think he loses to Hawkgirl and Shazaam.
 

Relaxedstate

PTH|RM Relaxedstate
There are not even enough Cyborg players in existence to even ask lol

LBSH: when every character released get godlike antizoning or baller teleports...how the hell is Cyborg supposed to compete :joker:
 

kevkopdx

Noob
I would have to say bane, Harley, joker, hawkgirl, lobo, Shazam, and at the moment Zatanna.
while its a shame zatanna doesnt have a good close up game, just getting her possession fixed in the next patch will be a huge help.. they could buff the speed on some of her normals but otherwise i dont find her to be that bad.. i wasnt expecting s tier out of her anyways
 

4x4lo8o

Noob
It is interesting if this discussion is framed not just as who could use buffs, but who needs to be really dramatically retooled: what one character should NRS go back to the drawing board with and significantly revamp? If that is the case, I think it might be Shazam. Here's why:

The Lobo community has reached a pretty solid consensus on a handful of buffs to fix him. Make this easier to link, fix the whiff on this, give faster armor on this, mostly minor things except the trait. The trait bites b/c you get one nuclear shell that adds 4% to the damage. Wow. Yet, the suggestion is to give the shell armor-breaking properties (to deal with Grundy and some other awful MUs) and maybe let Lobo stack a couple shells. 5-6 changes, most minor, and the Lobo players are satisfied.

Half the Bane players say Bane doesn't help. Ok.

I'm not as up on them, but the Lex and Joker communities also seem to have some decent consensus on some minor tweaks, although Joker's trait seems to still be an issue. Joker would probably be the runner-up, although it seems like a few tweaks could go a long way.

Not AT ALL putting the Shazam community on blast, but there seems to be a lot less consensus on how to make him work. Close to no consensus compared to others like Lobo. That just tells me there are some fundamental problems if everyone has different answers as to what he needs. Shazam is supposed to be awesome. The idea for Shazam was literally someone thinking to make a character as powerful as Superman whose alter ego was a young boy. Shazam isn't as good as Superman in IGAU, not nearly. He isn't even nearly as good as his counterpart, Black Adam.

And he's the only good guy who is poop-tier, except for our 'hero' Scorpion, lol.
When you frame it that way I think there's a really strong argument for Ares, although I agree about Shazaam too

Ares doesn't do anything well. His teleport is too slow to counter zone or whiff punish or do much of anything other than get you in after a knockdown. His zoning isn't good enough to win him many match ups and in some match ups it's so slow that it's almost unuseable. His rush down is awful and against characters that want to keep him out his poor mobility makes it very very difficult to get in. His wake ups are almost useless and every character in the game can just run a train on him once he's knocked down.

I have very low hopes for him actually being viable after the patch just because I don't what changes NRS could feasibly make that would actually help. There are so many match ups where he just can't do anything and doesn't function well at any spacing or distance, he just loses everywhere on the screen. He needs an overhaul and I wouldn't be surprised(or hold it against them) if NRS doesn't give it too him
 

RunwayMafia

Shoot them. Shoot them all.
AHAHAHAHA!! Oh God yes listen to him and make this character become bullshit lol.

Lets give her a 6 frame startup on mace toss*trollface*

In all seriousness though who needs the MOST help? Likely Shazam.

However who could use buffs is a MUCH larger lists. I think the whole cast needs mobility buffs to walk speeds for starters, and I'd like to see several strings across the roster improved to give folks better combo options and more starter options to combos period.

Buffs over nerfs here, but if we're picking and choosing roster to polish...Shazam.


He aint a candidate for shit bro. He's just not easy mode, but I swear that character can ruin some folks in this game. You play him patient. You play him punish style. You play him in your face. You do NOT play poke normals with him...dude is venom, armor, and wakeup suffocation. Once he is in you can't get him off and his wakeups are some of the BEST in the game and hard to read because he has 3 viable ones that all work differently and need different reactions to deal with.

One decent punish from Bane and he can likely take your life bar in the next moment's wakeup mixup or put you near enough to death to turn your "blowup" into a choke.

Watch some footage of Mustard's Bane and chat with Doombawks...you'll discover that he is a scary thing in a match you cannot take lightly. He honestly is his own thing...no one functions like he does in their strategy in the entire game.
What you think I'm kidding? She has legit fixes that are needed...which can be found in the post I made in the HawkGirl forums that was directed right at NRS. ;)