Balance and Meta discussion

[Trustful_Whale]

Geese in season 2 was the only character who can combo from a down jab.

Could Akuma not combo into a dp from that too, or just stand jab?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

I don’t believe that aa jabs offline are that much more powerful than online, they’re just consistent. However they can still get shut down for the same reasons and suffer from the same problems. They’re not exactly sfv jabs that absolutely shut down jumping no matter what imo.

You still see plenty of jumping in SFV, though. The guy who won Capcom Cup, iDom, jumps plenty. Sometimes jump-ins are successful, sometimes, they trade, sometimes they are AA-ed single-hit or DP.

It's not at all what a lot of people here seem to want, which is being able to stop every single jump-in on reaction with a 30% combo.

I don't have a big problem with the way NRS games do things, but I also don't see SFV as a good example of what people here are really asking for.

 

[NaCl man]

Alright, I'm gonna type a big ass post. Might split this into more digestible chunks.

People here on this site just aren't willing to admit the obvious. The game is unfinished. The game was released in a definitively incomplete state. I've said this multiple times and I'm going to say it here, for all that drama that went on about them grinding their employees into the dust, nothing about this game shows that.

The game also has no foundation. What do I mean by that?

Pokes aren't universalized
Flawless blocks aren't universalized

These are two mechanics that should be BASIC TOOLS YOU PLAY THE GAME AROUND. This game has a backwards construction of, basic shit is radically different but over arching character game plans are exactly the same. This kind of design always results in very weird power crunch where 5-7 characters are just flat out better than everybody else.
Combine this with incomplete variations, thrown together variations, tons of moves and strings that are outright useless, an absolutely scrubby implementation of armor and comeback factor in KB's (and the insane disparities between those) it's super hard to have faith in this game even when you like it. Certain characters are playing on almost an entirely different engine (wave dashers versus non-wave dashers, good zoners that turn the game into the worst parts of Inj2) as well.

I know people tend to not like me, but I get along with quite a few top players and figures in this community and hang out with these guys at events and often discuss the game. I WAS JUST at KIT over this weekend. I talked with Ominous, Kevo, Honeybee, Biohazard, Nicky and others and basically the conclusions drawn from all those talks are the game is unfinished, it isn't fun, it's scrubby as fuck and it really doesn't give you many reasons to stay invested it competitively.

So basically, based off the conversations I've had with these people and with other people I know, here's what I think the game needs MINIMUM.

1: 7F +15 on hit -7 on block D1's for everybody. I've yet to talk to anybody who objects to this.

2: 6F U3's and 9F U2's for everybody. U2's should be buffed to 100 damage.

3: Upper body invincible D2's. Literally copy and paste the U2 effect.

4: Plus jump kicks are fine, what needs to change is the reward. Make them do a short hop style splat knockdown on hit that's slightly negative (-1, -2).

5: Removal of fatal blow armor

6: Remove the ability to flawless block out of hit stun

7: All jab and low profiling anti airs removed

8: Removal of the freedom of movement options like dash canceling into normals and wave dashing (yes a lot of top players do not like these things either but people called me a scrub for bringing it up 3 months ago). Elucidating why this hurts the game requires an essay unto itself.

9: Reworked variations and moves incorporated into base kits. MUCH bigger more in depth topic obviously.

10: D2's only KB whiffed throws

11: A throw tech window increase, or a removal of the requirement to let go of block to tech

12: Double KB throws have their damage reduced to 240 from 310.

And that's just BASIC UNIVERSAL SHIT. This game almost needs a redesign.

+15 on hit d1? That would completely break characters with fast mids. Give liu a hit comfortable d1 into f4?

 

[thlityoursloat]

+15 on hit d1? That would completely break characters with fast mids. Give liu a hit comfortable d1 into f4?

You still can't really mash out of d1 into f4..

 

[CrimsonShadow]

+15 on hit d1? That would completely break characters with fast mids. Give liu a hit comfortable d1 into f4?

Cherny literally posted a thread before MK11 came out that said no d1 should ever be more than +5 on hit. Now he’s saying all d1s should be +15. The man is all over the map.

Low Poke Hierarchy I'd Personally Like To See

I've always said that NRS games would benefit from more and more universalizing of super basic tools. Particularly, I think if they shared more similarity with Tekken we'd see some cool shit taking form. I've thought about it, and while it's unlikely I'd like to overall see this in MK11. So...

testyourmight.com

 

[trufenix]

Still waiting on evidence to prove any of this will fix anything.

 

[Braindead]

Cherny literally posted a thread before MK11 came out that said no d1 should ever be more than +5 on hit. Now he’s saying all d1s should be +15. The man is all over the map.

Low Poke Hierarchy I'd Personally Like To See

I've always said that NRS games would benefit from more and more universalizing of super basic tools. Particularly, I think if they shared more similarity with Tekken we'd see some cool shit taking form. I've thought about it, and while it's unlikely I'd like to overall see this in MK11. So...

testyourmight.com

Also jumps are too powerful and need to be nerfed but AA jabs should be nerfed because they shut down jumping
(in the same post)

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

1. Fatal Blows. More negative on block, Less push back, gone if you get blocked or whiff, require meter.
2. Krushing Blows. Make universal KBs (everyone gets 1 punish kb, 1 d2 kb, 1 number of hits kb, 1 character specific kb, and 1 goofy troll kb) and if not that, make everyone have PRACTICAL KBs. Why does 1 character get 6 (geras) he can get per match and 1 character gets 1 or 2 (johnny)
3. Fix everyone's U2 to where they actually can hit the things they are supposed to hit. Nerf Geras U2 to be in line with everyone else's.
4. Pokes. More negative on block, more plus on hit.
5. Throws. 1 Kb for each character, no one should have 2.
6. Give sub zero a real clone and more special moves.

That's pretty much it for me as I actually LIKE the game how it is currently. These are just changes that make some mechanics less annoying.


Edit:

OH I didn't know we were talking character changes too...

Nerf the fuck out of Jacqui and Cetrion.

 

[Vslayer]

Buff Kano he's bottom 1 give him more mids and more + strings (all of them).

I gotta take over for Cage downplayers since they can no longer downplay. Thank me later.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

You still see plenty of jumping in SFV, though. The guy who won Capcom Cup, iDom, jumps plenty. Sometimes jump-ins are successful, sometimes, they trade, sometimes they are AA-ed single-hit or DP.

It's not at all what a lot of people here seem to want, which is being able to stop every single jump-in on reaction with a 30% combo.

I don't have a big problem with the way NRS games do things, but I also don't see SFV as a good example of what people here are really asking for.

My bad for not clarifying, I meant how aa jabs in sfv used to be. They’ve been nerfed so they aren’t as dumb as they used to be, but my point was to compare them to how they used to be in which they made jumps extremely risky

 

[SonicNinja3532]

I haven't done super deep driving into tech and thigns like that, but I have watched enough tournaments to know the meta isn't center around zoning and the only person using Cetrion is Dragon(unless someone else came out of nowhere I don't know about.). So you're bring up a character that only guy uses. Now if this Azwel in SC6, I wouldn't argue with you as SC6 has a waterfall of Azwel players.

I’m not gonna lie I don’t see how this has anything to do with what I said. Like at all. I didn’t say the meta revolves around zoning, and I don’t see what dragon being one of the only people to use cetrion (which isn’t true as koisy and asodimazze exist) has to do with anything. Did you read what I said?

 

[xKMMx]

1. Fatal Blows. More negative on block, Less push back, gone if you get blocked or whiff, require meter.
2. Krushing Blows. Make universal KBs (everyone gets 1 punish kb, 1 d2 kb, 1 number of hits kb, 1 character specific kb, and 1 goofy troll kb) and if not that, make everyone have PRACTICAL KBs. Why does 1 character get 6 (geras) he can get per match and 1 character gets 1 or 2 (johnny)
3. Fix everyone's U2 to where they actually can hit the things they are supposed to hit. Nerf Geras U2 to be in line with everyone else's.
4. Pokes. More negative on block, more plus on hit.
5. Throws. 1 Kb for each character, no one should have 2.
6. Give sub zero a real clone and more special moves.

That's pretty much it for me as I actually LIKE the game how it is currently. These are just changes that make some mechanics less annoying.


Edit:

OH I didn't know we were talking character changes too...

Nerf the fuck out of Jacqui and Cetrion.

I loved everything about this post until you talked about nerfing Jacqui lol

 

[Dreamcatcher]

Buff all the mid to low tier. Change throw techs to the throw button, also getting rid of all throw KB's. Make jump ins and pokes more negative. Fix the hitbox and whiffing issues, especially U2's burning bars of meter for nothing. Fatal blows now cost all bars of meter in addition to low health requirement.

That's pretty much it for me.

 

[NaCl man]

You still can't really mash out of d1 into f4..

It's not about mashing out. The d1 would combo into f4 on hit. If you had universal 7f d1 that are -7 on block liu could block your d1 , punish with his own d1 and combo that into f4.

 

[Eldriken]

It's not about mashing out. The d1 would combo into f4 on hit. If you had universal 7f d1 that are -7 on block liu could block your d1 , punish with his own d1 and combo that into f4.

It wouldn't combo on hit. It doesn't work like that.

Kabal's 22 is +20 on hit. If you try to d1 after a 22 on hit and your opponent blocks, they'll block it.

Even if the opponent DIDN'T block the d1, it still wouldn't register as a combo. It's how people are able to Flawless Block out of hitstun.

 

[Jbog]

Get rid of the stupid block frame recovery and im perfectly happy with all the other bs this game has. Not being able to punish unsafe moves is the total problem with this game!! It feeds the poke meta 100 percent the pokes are already minus enough its the damn block recovery that bonea your turn to the second d1 poke shit!

 

[NaCl man]

It wouldn't combo on hit. It doesn't work like that.

Kabal's 22 is +20 on hit. If you try to d1 after a 22 on hit and your opponent blocks, they'll block it.

Even if the opponent DIDN'T block the d1, it still wouldn't register as a combo. It's how people are able to Flawless Block out of hitstun.

Is that because of the buffering system in this game?

 

[CrimsonShadow]

Is that because of the buffering system in this game?

It’s just how frames and flags work in the engine. Not everything is allowed to be a combo starter, and hit advantage isn’t what determines whether something links.

In general normals do not combo into each other unless they are explicitly linked into a string (or unless the opponent is launched and the hit is a juggle) But pokes don’t even combo into specials, even though they can cancel into them. They have some kind of flag set preventing it.

 

[xKMMx]

Get rid of the stupid block frame recovery and im perfectly happy with all the other bs this game has. Not being able to punish unsafe moves is the total problem with this game!! It feeds the poke meta 100 percent the pokes are already minus enough its the damn block recovery that bonea your turn to the second d1 poke shit!

Yes that is my main gripe with this game. Just the fact that in certain situation you'd be better off wiping your ass with frame data than applying it to how you play this game. It can be frustrating enough to try and punish certain shit in this game with my main anyway just because she has stubby normal. But when I have to fight lag and variable block stun bullshit that's a layer of depth I don't need.

 

[Jbog]

It is seriously the main suck of this game!!! If its fixed the game would actually be fun! Even with its other terrible problems this is the main one!!!

 

[exflyingbooty]

Could Akuma not combo into a dp from that too, or just stand jab?

All "2d" characters can combo from a d+1/s1 in tekken

 

[Eddy Wang]

Is that because of the buffering system in this game?

Mortal Kombat has two flag systems, one is called "2 in 1" which allows characters to link normals into specials, in MK11 this was updated with a timer, meaning 2 in 1 linking window can ow expire.

The other one is called Auto-Block system, this one when enabled it doesn't matter how plus you are, you can't link normals to conitnnue combo.

For example Skarlet's blood ball its +29 on hit, she can't start a combo off it because the auto block system activates, and in this period despite them being -29 they are allowed to block any incoming attack.

 

[SonicNinja3532]

MK11 this was updated with a timer, meaning 2 in 1 linking window can ow expire.

What do you mean by this?

 

[versavices]

Could Akuma not combo into a dp from that too, or just stand jab?

They both could in S2. Geese got way more damage off a D1 CH than Akuma could off a i10 punish. Akuma is just nuts because of how much damage he can get off D2/D3 clean.

 

[Eddy Wang]

What do you mean by this?

you can have a 2 in 1 move and yet not connecting every special move you have.
For example, Skarlet can connect F4~blood ball at the wall, but she can't do it midscreen
Skarlet can't connect B3~blood ball midscreen, but she can do it in the corner

What happens is, if characters are pushed further away from the first active frame range of the special, even if that move connects certain specials due the pushback it won't catch them in time so it expires. At the wall, there is no place for character to be pushed to, so blood ball connects on the first active frame of that window.

Another clear example is how she can do f43 and cancel any special that is not blood ball, even in the corner she can't do it.