Breakthrough Aquaman OTG after ending combos in sweep

[Dizzy]

Hey all, if you saw me play at UFGT you may have said "why is this fool ending his combos with sweep? why not just do f2 1+3 for a hard knockdown that does 3% more damage?"

Well, I will tell you why, because after you end a combo with sweep and follow up with a properly timed b12 your opponent cannot wakeup attack or backdash. This is a blockable OTG. If your opponent knows about this you can still do b12 xx df1 do you 1-2% more damage than if you ended with F2 1+3 which is good against chars it is safe against. Once they start respecting it you can go for f1 mixups. The only way to escape this is to do super with 2+3+MB. You cannot escape it with Flip Stance + MB macro for some reason.

You may wonder how I across such a thing. When playing GGA 16 Bit he would often end his combos with Frost's cmd grab (non-MB) because of Aquaman's trait, then dash up and 50/50 with slide or f3. I could literally never get a wakeup attack against slide. He said "level up your timing bro" and whatnot, but I went into training mode and found out that it was literally impossible to get a wakeup attack against this. Given this, I went to see if there was other hard knockdowns that this applied to. It seemed to apply to all sweeps. This is how the tech was born.

This applies to many chars, not just Aquaman, so I suggest you experiement to see what works for you.

WARNING FOR TESTING OTGS: The AI can wakeup attack all OTGs. This is a bug. To test if something OTGs you must record the combo then try to do the wakeup attack yourself. The easiest way to do this is select Grundy and hold MB while mashing the hell out of 4 (trait).

I did talk to Paulo (lead designer) at UFGT regarding this, and he confirmed it is being fixed in an upcoming patch. So, do not rely on this to win you games as it won't last that much longer.

P.S. I do know a few people noticed this after Check made that video about the training mode bugs, but I don't think anyone really figured out how to apply it. Which is why I made this thread. Also, you can easily see it's practical application in my tournament matches.

kanechump
Awesomo
RDK|Tyrant
Reno_Racks
DJTMIT
STORMS
GamerBlake90

 

[G4S Killin Natzees]

This is cool stuff, I kept trying to figure out why the hell you ended in sweet, and I didn't see too many OTG follow-ups as far as tourney play goes. This all makes sense now, and it loooks like some really great stuff Dizzy!

 

[EGP Awesomo]

Scumbag.....I love it

 

[Quantus]

I played around with this before as well, and I love using D3 hard knockdowns as a throw set-up. They'll probably get caught the first 2 times with it, and then switch it up with B12 if you get them with it a 3rd time.

 

[Zyphox]

GGA Dizzy this tech makes the flash top 5 or top 10 now, video coming soon as it uploads, hopefully they don't patch it

 

[Cat]

Always knew something was off with wake ups

 

[MK Peanuts]

Man that explains it. I was wondering why you kept ending with sweep, and also why no one would ever block the b12 that you always did immediately after the sweep. It all makes sense now.

 

[Zyphox]

GGA Dizzy where is that check video about training mode bugs?

 

[G4S KT]

GGA Dizzy did colt say how it was being fixed?

 

[Dizzy]

No, but hopefully he meant all OTGs will be fixed. We will just have to see.

KT Smith

My best guess it make it so you can wakeup attack at the same time the CPU can when you set them to wakeup atk.

 

[Skkra]

Always knew something was off with wake ups

I can't tell you how many times I've tried doing a fully invincible wakeup against obvious pressure from an opponent, only to get completely stuffed. I always assumed my timing was just off for whatever reason, but if there are indeed setups that prevent ANY wakeup from working... that really explains a lot.

 

[JaredL]

This is most likely a problem of you not being able to do wake ups as soon as possible. Meaning you don't get the juicy invulnerability frames and you have to block.

 

[G4S KT]

No, but hopefully he meant all OTGs will be fixed. We will just have to see.

KT Smith

My best guess it make it so you can wakeup attack at the same time the CPU can when you set them to wakeup atk.

I hope so. The alternative to increasing the wake-up window would be to make all of those frames that they are on the ground invincible which could eliminate a lot of mix-up potential and make meaty attacks much too easy to see coming in a lot of situations

 

[SimSim]

I don't really get this tech. I recorded AI aquaman to do combo in to sweep and then go for a meaty b12. When trying to wake up attack with Grundy (as recommended to test by Dizzy) I would still get wake up attacks. I tested this with a lot of different recordings to make sure it wasn't just bad timing on my part, but I never got a recording where Grundy was unable to wake up attack every time. Don't get me wrong, it seems like it's harder to wake up attack after sweep than other knock downs, and when Grundy does get his wake up attack (Either his Trait+MB or his walking grab with armor) it seems to whiff on aquaman a lot. The walking grab seems to catch him a lot though.

I am just wondering what the specifics for this tech is? Should the opponent be unable to get the message "Wake up attack" or should the wake up attack get hit because of no invulnerable frames, or should it still have invulnerable frames but still whiff?

 

[Dizzy]

SimSim

You have to time it to hit with b1 as hes starting to stand up. The timing is kind of strict and is stance specific. If they fall face up you have to delay it significantly longer than if they fall face down from the sweep. Given this though, it is totally do-able in real matches. If you're able to get a wakeup attack though, the timing is off. It should never say wakeup attack if you have done it right.

If you wish to see videos of it you can check out the ones Zyphox made of them for the Flash. For real use in matches, I use it alot in my matches at UFGT, that just got uploaded to youtube I think.

Also, if you want a really easy OTG to test to get the concept down, do Green Lantern's lift (db1) followed immediately by B1. You can see that you cannot wakeup attack out of that.

 

[SimSim]

SimSimIf they fall face up you have to delay it significantly longer than if they fall face down from the sweep.

And there you probably have it! I refuse to believe all my recordings was faulty, and it did seem to work some times, so I guess it was the difference on timing on the knock down.

I have to admit I am not too familiar with the engine of this fighting game, but shouldn't the requirement to make this work, not be to time the b12 perfectly, but rather to have an attack hit meaty as the opponent wakes up? On that note, what is the deal with active frames in this game? Why isn't it listed together with the other frame data. Shouldn't there be a move with enough active frames to cover both the wake up timings? Something like b3 or f3? This would grant us enough + frames to do d1 xx df+1 too I would assume, so it would be a great set up if it works?

I might be far off because I am unfamiliar with the engine, so if I am wrong, please tell me why if you know the answer

 

[Dizzy]

SimSim

I don't think anything would cover both unforunately, you just got to see which animation they are in.

If they fall face down, you have to go very quickly in b12, if they fall face up you have to delay it a good bit then b12.

F3 and b2 can both otg as well. F1 can actually otg them if they do the face up animation, but the timing is suuuuper strict.

I think the engine theory is, the wakeup window doesn't begin fast enough as they are recovering from the sweep, so their vulnerable frames (they can block but not act) start before the wakeup attack window begins. If this is working correctly, the wakeup window should be at least 1f before their vulnerable window.

 

[SimSim]

SimSim

I don't think anything would cover both unforunately, you just got to see which animation they are in.

If they fall face down, you have to go very quickly in b12, if they fall face up you have to delay it a good bit then b12.

F3 and b2 can both otg as well. F1 can actually otg them if they do the face up animation, but the timing is suuuuper strict.

I think the engine theory is, the wakeup window doesn't begin fast enough as they are recovering from the sweep, so their vulnerable frames (they can block but not act) start before the wakeup attack window begins. If this is working correctly, the wakeup window should be at least 1f before their vulnerable window.

I tested stuff, and it seems like a combo ended with scoop (db1) will grant you a hard knock down as well as an easy set up for a otg with the same properties as the sweep one, except no nonesense with different knock down timing. Simply hold up forward after landing the scoop and do d1 xx df1 as soon as you land. If you could test this yourself and confirm, that would be awesome!

 

[Dizzy]

SimSim

Yeah, that was actually the first one I came across with Aquaman, then I started doing sweep to add 3-5% to the combos. Plus if you hit raw scoop or f1 scoop and stop the damage is reallllly low lol.

 

[SimSim]

SimSim

Yeah, that was actually the first one I came across with Aquaman, then I started doing sweep to add 3-5% to the combos. Plus if you hit raw scoop or f1 scoop and stop the damage is reallllly low lol.

Gotcha! Still this seems to be a useful set up after landing something like b12 xx db2 b12 db2 MB 22 xx db1, and the cross up is a little confusing so they might get hit some times too

 

[André Fellipe]

This was removed with the patch 1.04? @GGA Dizzy

 

[Zyphox]

GGA Dizzy i can't seem to do this, your a frau....oh wait ................NRS, they patched the flash's otg, can you believe that?

 

[Name v.5.0]

Pretty sure this doesnt work anymore. Didnt seem to last night when I played, but I didnt get a chance to test in the lab.

 

[SimSim]

I haven't tested it after patch myself, but I don't see why it would work if they fixed the wake up bug. Oh well! It's the same for everyone!

 

[x0Kakashi]

Doesnt work anymore I have tested it.