General/Other - Ninjitsu Anyone else feels that Ninjutsu is missing something?

[GamerBlake90]

Pick Hellfire Scorpion.

Pick Tempest Kung Lao as the training dummy

Go into AI options and set block mode to "stance", and movement mode to "duck", then set reversal attack to "Cyclone".

NOW do B32F2. You'll see what I mean. Kung Lao is indeed muy buenos.

???

I'm getting mixed results. At times, the armor comes out - at others, Lao gets hit.

But why is it when I tried to interrupt it myself with Scorpion set to do the string, I couldn't get it to come out at all?

EDIT: @STRYKIE @Slips

Okay, I'm mind-blown. I just tested it again and was able to interrupt consistently this time, but I had to crouch-block the entire string. But if he couldn't interrupt it while standing...then the frame data for blocking high or low is still wonky. O_O

 

[Slips]

I don't buy this being the reason. I'd prefer to steer clear of tinfoil hat theories but I don't think there's any reason for Scorpion's lack of armored starters in the neutral other than a tester panicking prematurely. Especially given that EX Tele was armored at all times all the way up until the day 1 patch.

I mean, I don't think anything about Jacqui's toolset correlates to her bad armor variation wide.

Hell, in my "issues to be amended" thread, M2Dave said he would prefer Flame Aura be armored over Low Minion just because it's not a full screen move, despite Flame Aura being monumentally superior at everything else lol.

All I ask for is the Warlock Quan treatment, one armored starter in one variation, and perhaps a less impressive armored safe option, and I'll call it a deal.

They could give Scorp an good armor move but I just don't feel it's necessary. He's already fine, he just needs a couple minor adjustments so he can't be punished for doing some of his core moves.

 

[Slips]

???

I'm getting mixed results. At times, the armor comes out - at others, Lao gets hit.

But why is it when I tried to interrupt it myself with Scorpion set to do the string, I couldn't get it to come out at all?

EDIT: @STRYKIE @Slips

Okay, I'm mind-blown. I just tested it again and was able to interrupt consistently this time, but I had to crouch-block the entire string.

Probably has to do with block stun. If you do it close the block stun will start earlier in the animation and might give him time to armor. If done further away the block stun will start later in the animation therefore not being able to armor.

 

[GamerBlake90]

Probably has to do with block stun. If you do it close the block stun will start earlier in the animation and might give him time to armor. If done further away the block stun will start later in the animation therefore not being able to armor.

Man, variable blockstun was always one of my biggest pet peeves...

 

[STRYKIE]

@YOMI RM JagoBlake I don't think it's so much to do with the variable blockstun when you block low, that was affecting some of Hellfire's run cancel strings and it has since been fixed.

The problem seems to be that B32F2 itself has severe coding problems.

 

[Slips]

@YOMI RM JagoBlake I don't think it's so much to do with the variable blockstun when you block low, that was affecting some of Hellfire's run cancel strings and it has since been fixed.

The problem seems to be that B32F2 itself has severe coding problems.

I think it's either a) it's a distance thing leaving a frame free for them to armor or b) if they are able to armor after blocking low like Blake said, it could be the a crouching hurtbox is a little fatter making the 2 connect sooner than normal and not jailing the f2 allowing them to armor.

 

[STRYKIE]

I think it's either a) it's a distance thing leaving a frame free for them to armor or b) if they are able to armor after blocking low like Blake said, it could be the a crouching hurtbox is a little fatter making the 2 connect sooner than normal and not jailing the f3 allowing them to armor.

Hmm, the second explanation would make sense as to why it only happens with certain characters and not others.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Except that @Daemantalo was right. Get rekt.

Oh yeah, the 2nd hit of F2 is so fast and not reactable at all, my bad, I'm obviously blind.

Feel free to go back to your cave.

Oi, I just read the post. I was half right lol. Most of these threads are the same. People say, "You know what Cybernetic Kano is missing? An Overhead." You know what Johnny Cage is missing? A low starter. Topics like these are really predictable man. Everyone wants a damned 50/50.

Except that Scorpion already has an overhead starter, so no, you weren't right at all. Keep trying.

 

[GamerBlake90]

@Ze Dingo - at ease, brother, no need to fan the flames.

...I'm just going to crawl back into my mancave and pretend I didn't make that blatant attempt at a poor joke...

 

[Ze Dingo]

Paulo stated that the next patch (which would land on September 1st) would address that.

???

September 1st?

 

[GamerBlake90]

???

September 1st?

Yes, the patch we've had previously.

 

[Ze Dingo]

Yes, the patch we've had previously.

Oh, you were talking in the past tense. Thought a new patch was announced.

Won't lie, I'm hoping for a slight Ronin Takeda before SCR.

 

[Scoot Magee]

Honestly I think Ninjitsu is good as is. His d4 leads to massive respect of F2 which opens up a lot of options. One good f2 after some conditioning for small damage can lead to a win. Regardless of if pressure isn't guaranteed his d4 is very good for conditioning and it helps Scorpion a lot. B2 is amazing as well if you condition people to walk/jump/dash back. His normals like st1, d3, d1 and njp are all amazing as well.

 

[K3DC]

The only thing Ninjutsu needs is a way to punish delayed wake up. It negates the pro of having f2 to counter wake ups, but since we lack mix-ups and respectable pressure, the most we'll get is a throw because they'll just block low until they see us lift our leg up. Even you stuttered your b3 or sparingly used f4, with f4 being pretty react-able, it diminishes the probability for an opening, so more times than not, we won't get any damage off are knockdowns.

(d4 is good) f2, b4, and b2 are great for whiff punishing, but they're not good neutral tools. They don't space out the opponent, the don't stop the opponent from coming in, they're just good on the opponent's recovery. If blocked or whiffed, the opponent is in and maybe have punished you. Since they're not overhead/lows, they're going to be blocked a lot and since they're not fast, you can't use them near the opponent because you can get out-prioritize. I'm not saying these moves are terrible or even that they need a buff. These are just the facts that lead me to believe that it is highly unlikely for a ninjutsu player to win off the neutral alone, meaning that damage on the knockdowns would benefit us.

So I think we should get a variation specific f4 (maybe with out flames to show it's different), that can be held to become unblockable the charge would be meant to catch long delayed wake up, this would give opponent a window to attack on their short delay, meaning they'll have a reason to hit buttons on their wake up. This would give us 3 ways to open up the opponent for combo, f2 for armored wake up, frame trap for short delay, and f4 for long delay.

I would really like to debate this proposed change with someone to see how viable it is or to make it viable.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The only thing Ninjutsu needs is a way to punish delayed wake up. It negates the pro of having f2 to counter wake ups, but since we lack mix-ups and respectable pressure, the most we'll get is a throw because they'll just block low until they see us lift our leg up. Even you stuttered your b3 or sparingly used f4, with f4 being pretty react-able, it diminishes the probability for an opening, so more times than not, we won't get any damage off are knockdowns.

(d4 is good) f2, b4, and b2 are great for whiff punishing, but they're not good neutral tools. They don't space out the opponent, the don't stop the opponent from coming in, they're just good on the opponent's recovery. If blocked or whiffed, the opponent is in and maybe have punished you. Since they're not overhead/lows, they're going to be blocked a lot and since they're not fast, you can't use them near the opponent because you can get out-prioritize. I'm not saying these moves are terrible or even that they need a buff. These are just the facts that lead me to believe that it is highly unlikely for a ninjutsu player to win off the neutral alone, meaning that damage on the knockdowns would benefit us.

So I think we should get a variation specific f4 (maybe with out flames to show it's different), that can be held to become unblockable the charge would be meant to catch long delayed wake up, this would give opponent a window to attack on their short delay, meaning they'll have a reason to hit buttons on their wake up. This would give us 3 ways to open up the opponent for combo, f2 for armored wake up, frame trap for short delay, and f4 for long delay.

I would really like to debate this proposed change with someone to see how viable it is or to make it viable.

St 1 is great for delayed wake up. St1, d3, d4, grab and etc. Grab 2 times and that's 24% and more incentive to not get grabbed again. When they don't want to eathe another grab is when you can really open up big damage.

Use his frame advantage into grabs. Then use your advantage into strings and d3/etc. You'll start seeing them attempt escapes. All his -1 strings can be followed up by d1 vs a lot of the cast as well.

Imo b2 is amazing in neutral and just the threat of it opens up a lot of options. It makes scorpions neutral a lot stronger when it's respected.

 

[Gengar]

if the 2nd hit of f2 was overhead you could cancel into slide for a wonky 50/50 too. i think Ninj needs an air spear since his only option to get in on zoning is a risky port or to cancel it for all his stam which is still risky.

but even then Ninj is fine without it, it would just be cool to have an air spear.

 

[Slips]

Lol these proposed changes to Ninjitsu are insane. You guys are wanting brand new moves and mechanics to a character that design-wise is already fully functional. He just needs a balance pass with a couple slight buffs to his main strings and moves and he'll be perfectly fine.

All he needs is f2 to be safe up close and he'll be fine. b32f2 being safer would be nice too.

Anything else Ninjitsu gets would just be icing on the cake, but that's ultimately all he needs imo.

 

[K3DC]

St 1 is great for delayed wake up. St1, d3, d4, grab and etc. Grab 2 times and that's 24% and more incentive to not get grabbed again. When they don't want to eathe another grab is when you can really open up big damage.

Use his frame advantage into grabs. Then use your advantage into strings and d3/etc. You'll start seeing them attempt escapes. All his -1 strings can be followed up by d1 vs a lot of the cast as well.

Imo b2 is amazing in neutral and just the threat of it opens up a lot of options. It makes scorpions neutral a lot stronger when it's respected.

The issue with that is they can tech, so none of those are guaranteed; it's true that mix ups are guaranteed but when they land they offer triple the reward (damage). Also can't they just duck on wake up? If they do, 1 whiffs and the most viable thing to hit them with after that is b3

I like what @Slips proposed. I wanted his oki or neutral to get buffed. f2 having less recovery would be great, especially because jumping over an f2 is good range for a 1 anti-air.

Useless moves?
3 (1 has more range, less start up, and more conversion)
b4 (hard read, next to no reward)
4 (1 is a better anti-air, has more horizontal range, and is faster)

 

[Scoot Magee]

Lol these proposed changes to Ninjitsu are insane. You guys are wanting brand new moves and mechanics to a character that design-wise is already fully functional. He just needs a balance pass with a couple slight buffs to his main strings and moves and he'll be perfectly fine.

All he needs is f2 to be safe up close and he'll be fine. b32f2 being safer would be nice too.

Anything else Ninjitsu gets would just be icing on the cake, but that's ultimately all he needs imo.

Safe f2 would be great. Safe b32f2 would too. Not entirely sure why they made that string unsafe.

 

[Scoot Magee]

The issue with that is they can tech, so none of those are guaranteed; it's true that mix ups are guaranteed but when they land they offer triple the reward (damage). Also can't they just duck on wake up? If they do, 1 whiffs and the most viable thing to hit them with after that is b3

I like what @Slips proposed. I wanted his oki or neutral to get buffed. f2 having less recovery would be great, especially because jumping over an f2 is good range for a 1 anti-air.

Useless moves?
3 (1 has more range, less start up, and more conversion)
b4 (hard read, next to no reward)
4 (1 is a better anti-air, has more horizontal range, and is faster)

The counters you are mentioning are what opens up bigger damage. There's always something somebody can do to get around something which is what you want to happen , nothing is guaranteed. You want to provoke people to try new things which gives you opportunities.

Also st4 is not useless, it's actually very good. St 4 is +2 and grants more push back than st 1 which helps to set up whiff punishes a lot easier than off st 1. It's best used after a landed teleport. Also b4 is a good round ender.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

I think b32f2 should be safe for sure, why they made it unsafe is beyond me, it's not like it's hard to block that string. Though i'm not sure f2 should be safe, at close range you shouldn't really be using it imo. I do think though that ninjutsu doesn't have anywhere near the dirt that other characters do so I think he needs something, just not sure what. Would be nice if there was a way to open up opponents without relying on grabs, problem with grabs is that the game devolves into a 50 50 grab fest when you start doing it. Poke forward grab, counter poke back grab. I think all he needs is a string that puts him in plus frames so he can continue his pressure. I'm pretty sure every character in the game that doesn't have a real 50 50 has a string that gives them frame advantage, I'd like to see the same for ninjutsu scorp, they could change his b121 sting to be +2 or 3, I think that would go a long way to helping out this variation.

 

[Scoot Magee]

I think b32f2 should be safe for sure, why they made it unsafe is beyond me, it's not like it's hard to block that string. Though i'm not sure f2 should be safe, at close range you shouldn't really be using it imo. I do think though that ninjutsu doesn't have anywhere near the dirt that other characters do so I think he needs something, just not sure what. Would be nice if there was a way to open up opponents without relying on grabs, problem with grabs is that the game devolves into a 50 50 grab fest when you start doing it. Poke forward grab, counter poke back grab. I think all he needs is a string that puts him in plus frames so he can continue his pressure. I'm pretty sure every character in the game that doesn't have a real 50 50 has a string that gives them frame advantage, I'd like to see the same for ninjutsu scorp, they could change his b121 sting to be +2 or 3, I think that would go a long way to helping out this variation.

The thing is his 6 frame d1 essentially makes his -1 strings advantageous or neutral against most of the cast. D1 grants great advantage on hit to then follow up.

 

[Kotal_Wannabe]

The thing is his 6 frame d1 essentially makes his -1 strings advantageous or neutral against most of the cast. D1 grants great advantage on hit to then follow up.

Yeh, I do this too, but often the d1 doesn't reach and you get punished for it, also they can block after b121 and then your d1 puts you at a disadvantage. Of course you can anticipate this and run cancel a grab, but if we wanna be dirty like other characters, I don't think a + frame b121 string is too much to ask, will give us the option to safely backdash/jumpback/d4 vs all the characters and also add the mind game of potentially continuing on the pressure with another string.

 

[Lord Beef]

The counters you are mentioning are what opens up bigger damage. There's always something somebody can do to get around something which is what you want to happen , nothing is guaranteed. You want to provoke people to try new things which gives you opportunities.

Also st4 is not useless, it's actually very good. St 4 is +2 and grants more push back than st 1 which helps to set up whiff punishes a lot easier than off st 1. It's best used after a landed teleport. Also b4 is a good round ender.

st4 is such a great move. Its match up specific, but after a tele it provides a pretty good guessing game and tends to make people push buttons. Great conditioning tool.

 

[K3DC]

The counters you are mentioning are what opens up bigger damage. There's always something somebody can do to get around something which is what you want to happen , nothing is guaranteed. You want to provoke people to try new things which gives you opportunities.

Also st4 is not useless, it's actually very good. St 4 is +2 and grants more push back than st 1 which helps to set up whiff punishes a lot easier than off st 1. It's best used after a landed teleport. Also b4 is a good round ender.

My stance here is that: where ninjutsu stands now it's not probable for us to win. If the opponent just takes the throw every time, it'll take 9 throws. If they duck it once, we'll take the damage of at least 3, if not more, into a set up for more damage. I'm not saying that we don't have options, I'm just saying that our options combined aren't sufficient to make Ninjutsu a viable character. I would love to be wrong a watch a high level match of a ninjutsu player getting openings off knockdowns and controlling the neutral. I mean all cons aside, we only need to land 3 whiff punishes to win. B2, F2, and Njp and deal at least 33%. B3 does less, but with some meter it can also do a third.

I never said those moves were useless. It was a question because I had not found a viable use for them. It sounds like 4 has a niche use to it. 1 has more range is good advantage on block, but the push back on 4 is worth something. Do you have any viable uses for the rest of the moves on that list?