Animated Hitboxes/hurtboxes need to go

[Keep it moist]

I appologise if this is somewhere in thread format already

I found this out while trying to find some stuff with kano, its where a characters crouch animation would bob their hurt boxes up and down and in some cases cause's kano's En knife toss to miss or hit occasonally

En knife toss people it doesn’t hit

Kung Lao
Ermac
Reptile (Special guy right here sometimes it hits sometimes it doesn’t Me thinks it’s the excessive movement he does when crouched)
Kitana
Mileena
Cyrax (Reverse of Reptile sometimes it doesn’t hit)
Jax
Freddy (depends if he is lowering himself or not)

sometime ago REO posted a vid explaining about kabals pressure and how it is affected by characters with different hitbox sizes. It was stated that Jax among a few other characters had a small enough hitbox that b1 would wiff on a crouch block opponent, which is some what tru but you would have to be point blank for that to happen.

There is acctually a point where kabals b1 can hit jax when ducking without blocking which is caused by his crouched animation, the animation difference is not a prominent on block and the b1 will hit all the while once you find that zone where it will always connect.

I did not test this with other characters hitboxes

video ^ thanks to GrandMasterson
your thoughts tym?

 

[miloPKL]

i dont think its a problem. its just the game.

 

[LEGEND]

sucks for kano since he already has so few options but overall its not that big a problem

i don't even see why it was added in the first place, just adds more randomness. I don't get it

 

[Espio]

When we were doing the random advantage bug tests, I noticed this with Stryker and Jade, several of their strings sometimes hit crouch and other times they do not. It definitely needs to go, it's stupid that some attacks don't work on certain characters, if I have a string or special that hits mid, it should hit everyone in the same way, great thread.

 

[THTB]

Hurtboxes definitely need to be stationary.

 

[Keep it moist]

i dont know if its just a small number of people that dont know what this means and how it can affect gameplay but its bad.

if a move is supposed to hit its should hit, and not only hit when the opponent is in the required frames of animation to allow it to hit

 

[FrothyOmen]

This happens to me Smoke vs. Reptile in the lab. From the neutral position, it's a coin toss whether b23 will actually reach reptile or not because of how much he moves while standing still. This is not an issue with most of the rest of the cast. like thtb said....... hurtboxes should be stationary on standing opponents, however it't not very often that you'll encounter a neutral standing opponent. Neutral crouch however should be perfectly still in terms of hurtbox, just like all forms of blocking.

 

[GrandMasterson]

I made a video about this with examples.

 

[MagicMan357]

i never realised this issue until i started using EX knife more. It def has to go in mk10.

 

[THTB]

i dont think its a problem. its just the game.

It's a huge problem. It creates a really large random factor on certain moves.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

It's a huge problem. It creates a really large random factor on certain moves.

Well its not random, its really consistent. E.g. Cages head bops up, he gets hit by the spear, his head goes down, he doesnt.

There are already elements of characters making use of the 3D hitboxes in the game, like KLs 2 4 spin, Cages 21F2 21 44 NP on certain characters etc.

The problem is that it would be hard to time certain moves like Scorps ex spear by looking at the animation of the other character, but really doesnt it mean theres just more depth in the game than we're already looking at?

 

[Keep it moist]

lol inconsistencies

so then we need to change move property description to this move hits crouched except these characters when in frames 3-10 of crouching animation

Not applicable needs to go

 

[Flagg]

I've been ducking right next to a Kitana and Noob Saibot when they launch their X Ray and nothing happens.

Sometimes CSZ X Ray is a bit strange. I've been getting the knack down of instant air x-ray with CSZ but on some characters, he goes through them and nothing happens.

 

[GrandMasterson]

The problem is that it would be hard to time certain moves like Scorps ex spear by looking at the animation of the other character, but really doesnt it mean theres just more depth in the game than we're already looking at?

This isn't "depth" so much as an oversight on NRS's part. It's consistent, but in a really retarded fashion. If a move is supposed to hit or whiff a character crouch blocking, it should hit or whiff them crouch blocking 100% of the time. The move connecting shouldn't be dependent on the opponent's hitbox being altered by their idle animations.

 

[THTB]

Well its not random, its really consistent. E.g. Cages head bops up, he gets hit by the spear, his head goes down, he doesnt.

There are already elements of characters making use of the 3D hitboxes in the game, like KLs 2 4 spin, Cages 21F2 21 44 NP on certain characters etc.

The problem is that it would be hard to time certain moves like Scorps ex spear by looking at the animation of the other character, but really doesnt it mean theres just more depth in the game than we're already looking at?

You know what I mean by random, damnit! XD

But really, unlike 24 xx spin or 21f2, 21, 44 NP, it's not as controlled. If your eye for the situation is great, you can use those particular combos. That's not impossible, considering VF players do it all the time. But to time a move so that a crouch blocking character gets hit by it is something that's a lot more out of your control.

 

[kronspik]

This exists in other fighters too. For example, in 3rd strike, Elena's standing hitbox shifts forward and back on a cycle because her stance does that.

 

[Keep it moist]

This exists in other fighters too. For example, in 3rd strike, Elena's standing hitbox shifts forward and back on a cycle because her stance does that.

but her hitbox wasnt affected

 

[GrandMasterson]

This exists in other fighters too. For example, in 3rd strike, Elena's standing hitbox shifts forward and back on a cycle because her stance does that.

That doesn't make it any less stupid. The point is that 3D hitboxes shouldn't be in a 2D fighter, period.

This is an example of where the art direction (animation) conflicts with gameplay (hitboxes in a competitive fighter). Gameplay, especially in fighting game, always takes priority over art direction. Any move collision that depends on what part of the opponent's IDLE animation frames are is retarded.

All NRS has to do is implement static 2D hitboxes for IDLE animations and this would solve the problem.

 

[greeneless]

Not certain, but I think this might also be in SkullGirls.

 

[Keep it moist]

@A F0xy Grampa remember you were telling me to stop uppercuting kl when u wiffing string and just full combo it, there is inconsistencies with kl 21 as well on jax's crouch hitbox weather he is blocking or not

 

[NariTuba]

So the problem here is not 3d vs 2d but the fact that some moves that "should" (according to whom?) always hit dont always hit.

I play Cyrax, if my 1,2 string whiffs sometimes on a specific character's crouching hitbox I just treat the move as if it always whiffs. Im not taking any chances, I change my strategy; I see it simply as an advantage that character has over my character. If anything, the fact that it sometimes hits is an advantage to me, not the other way around.

I hit with a d4 and I come in with dash 1,2 because I think I hit you at the proper distance for you to be jailed standing. But Im wrong and you are able to crouch before I get to you. If your head happens to bob up at that particular moment you now have to take that chip / command grab mixup. If your head bobs down instead and I whiff and you poke me, everything is as it should be... I shouldnt attack with strings that sometimes whiff in the first place and / or I shouldnt missjudge my d4 distance.

Now, an ENTIRELY different topic is wether this should be in the game or not (i.e. the fact that some characters are smaller than others making a number of moves whiff) I personally dont think its a problem in this game.

In the case of Scorpions spear specifically, if you determine it must hit the entire roster because HE NEEDS IT, then make the hitbox for the spear itself large enough to hit everyone regardless of their animation. Problem solved.

 

[GrandMasterson]

So the problem here is not 3d vs 2d but the fact that some moves that "should" (according to whom?) always hit dont always hit.

No, it IS the problem. I don't care what you say, 3D hitboxes don't belong in a 2D fighter.

According to whom? How about you ask yourself this: why is it acceptable that Kabal will sometimes whiff B+1 on Jax couch blocking while his opponent does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THIS WHIFF TO OCCUR? We're not talking about normal whiffs here where both players are moving about making reads. Both players are sitting there doing the exact same thing over and over, but different outcomes happen simply because the hit connecting is dependent on the character's IDLE ANIMATION.

That is fucking stupid.

everything is as it should be...

I'm sick of the MK community making excuses for this game. "Oh it's not a big deal". If you keep downplaying the faults of MK9, then they'll never get fixed and you'll end up with the exact same problems in MK10. It's as if the MK community is so used to stupid broken shit that they don't know it when they see it.

In the case of Scorpions spear specifically, if you determine it must hit the entire roster because HE NEEDS IT, then make the hitbox for the spear itself large enough to hit everyone regardless of their animation. Problem solved.

Why not just fix ALL of the hitboxes with 2D and have a more consistent game? As it stands in a real match, it's random. No player on earth is going to implement the strategy of OKAY JAX'S HEAD IS BOBBING UP RIGHT NOW SO I'M GOING TO DO A B+1 STRING.

Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

 

[NariTuba]

Calm down man, no need to get all hot headed. We cant have a debate and reach any conclusions if you're getting out of control.

why is it acceptable that Kabal will sometimes whiff B+1 on Jax couch blocking while his opponent does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING FOR THIS WHIFF TO OCCUR? We're not talking about normal whiffs here where both players are moving about making reads. Both players are sitting there doing the exact same thing over and over, but different outcomes happen simply because the hit connecting is dependent on the character's IDLE ANIMATION.

You have an issue with the fact that it will sometimes hit or will sometimes miss depending on the position of the idle hitbox. The principle of it doesnt matter if it doesnt translate into a balance issue; i.e. the game becomes unintentionally unbalanced and low hitbox characters start to win tournaments because of it.
As things stand now, we can safely say game balance is not really affected as we see dominant high hitbox characters winning tournaments as well as low hitbox.

What Im saying is that the fact that some crouching hitboxes make certain moves whiff has been relevant for certain matchups but not for the overall game balance. So why not accept it as a quirk in the game?

Why not just fix ALL of the hitboxes with 2D and have a more consistent game? As it stands in a real match, it's random. No player on earth is going to implement the strategy of OKAY JAX'S HEAD IS BOBBING UP RIGHT NOW SO I'M GOING TO DO A B+1 STRING.

Get the fuck out of here with that shit.

I never said you should try to predict when the head is bobbing up, I said you should treat the move as if it always whiffs... then I even gave you a scenario to illustrate my point. I dont really have a problem with my normals working differently for different matchups.

 

[GrandMasterson]

=What Im saying is that the fact that some crouching hitboxes make certain moves whiff has been relevant for certain matchups but not for the overall game balance. So why not accept it as a quirk in the game?

You're missing my point. Having 3D hitboxes in a 2D fighting game only opens the game up to more holes than it would have than if it had 2D hitboxes.

For now, yes, we will have to use different strings because of how the hitboxes work. But for MK10, NRS needs to go back to using 2D hitboxes like they did with the old 2D MK games. It would make the game much more consistent, the hitboxes could be easily modified, and things like this wouldn't happen (and if they did, it could be easily fixed):

 

[NariTuba]

You're missing my point. Having 3D hitboxes in a 2D fighting game only opens the game up to more holes than it would have than if it had 2D hitboxes.

For now, yes, we will have to use different strings because of how the hitboxes work. But for MK10, NRS needs to go back to using 2D hitboxes like they did with the old 2D MK games. It would make the game much more consistent, the hitboxes could be easily modified, and things like this wouldn't happen (and if they did, it could be easily fixed):

Damn that jps nightwolf miss on mileena is totally stupid. You do have a point.

They could still use the 3d hurtboxes and adjust the hitboxes on all moves through thorough testing to make sure whatever is supposed to connect does connect... but I can see how using 2d boxes would make more sense in the end for future 2d games.

I guess its just a consequence of adapting a 3d engine to a 2d plane in combination with lack of testing.

Good videos and good info.