A community tier list, with contributions from some TYM members

[Undergroundepict]

You're right, I mis read that


What? You're the one who needs to provide details, the list puts forth a statement on why it is like that so I'm asking for an explanation? This is exactly what I'm talking about


That doesn't mean I agree with any of that or either of the players though.

I'm just pointing out that our Flash and Cold reps don't appear to participate very frequently, if at all, on this particular website, and are therefore very unlikely to respond to your posts. I play neither character at a high level and am therefore unable to offer an adequate breakdown of the matchup.

I am, however, offering to relay your breakdown of the MU to our Cold and Flash representatives, if you are willing to offer a breakdown. We can't just relay every MU somebody generally disagrees with without explaination, lol.

I'm literally going way out of my way to try and accomodate you here; work with me, just a little.

The purpose of pointing out that our Flash rep aslo agreed with the Manta MU was to say that the number we arrived at wasn't a result of Chernny running roughshot all over the place. Requiring both character representatives to agree is a check and balance designed in part to prevent exactly that.

You are entitled to disagree, and encouraged to share those disagreements.

 

[PND OmegaK]

Any particular change that has made him approximately top 1/2?

Top 1 or 2 is a bit of a stretch.

But the last few patches giving him faster walk startup speed, quicker stampede cancels, and the fact he can combo from d1 in trait has helped his neutral in a pretty big way.

The new stampede cancels have given grodd players a much easier time doing cancels like f2 (kinda ridiculous now) and 11 (very important because of the gap), adding extra layers to his pressure.

These changes seems small but they've made a massive difference in matchups like catwoman, robin, and manta, which are all probably close to if not even now.

He still gets smacked around by black adam, aquaman, and a few other characters but he's definitely viable now.

 

[Insomniac FGC]

I'm losing track of all the changes that people are suggesting. It's clear to me that most of you share our passion of ensuring that the list is accurate, so please take the time to explain why you feel your contended match ups are more accurate than ours and we'll get right to looking into them.

I'll make the process more streamlined. Please post the match ups that you disagree with in the nrstierlist.com forum here. We'll separate business from pleasure completely. The NRS Tier List website will contain specific match up discussion and this TYM thread will function for meta-discussion.

@Marinjuana if you could do me a favor, can you please add the match up dispute thread to the original post so that people can easily go to it? (see URL below)

https://www.nrstierlist.com/forums/topic/match-up-disputes/

 

[Wigy]

Also I don't think grodd is bottom. I don't know where he places I just take exception to being entirely discredited on my opinion that he hasn't got any good tools to open someone up who knows the mu and plays it properly.

I'd put him in the bottom quarter cause some of his matchups are really bad and he doesn't really dominate anyone

 

[Cursa]

Top 1 or 2 is a bit of a stretch.

But the last few patches giving him faster walk startup speed, quicker stampede cancels, and the fact he can combo from d1 in trait has helped his neutral in a pretty big way.

The new stampede cancels have given grodd players a much easier time doing cancels like f2 (kinda ridiculous now) and 11 (very important because of the gap), adding extra layers to his pressure.

These changes seems small but they've made a massive difference in matchups like catwoman, robin, and manta, which are all probably close to if not even now.

He still gets smacked around by black adam, aquaman, and a few other characters but he's definitely viable now.

Meant to be 0.5, half, top 1 or 2 is probably a stretch. I also don't think he has 27 4-6's like the tier list says (Didn't actually count them but I'm pretty sure it was more than 20)

Explanation helpful and appreciated though

 

[chrisisnice]

Embarrassing question time...

I have never really played Wonder Woman. I am definitely not disputing her placement, but what makes her so good?

 

[EntropicByDesign]

much better

No chance. Just been to busy to post as per normal.

 

[DDutchguy]

I have a couple questions about the Raiden chart, if Bkith is available.

• Raiden vs Wonder Woman is listed as a 7-3, but from my experience it seems more like a 6-4. From my experience against @Braindead, I think Raiden has the following things going for him in this matchup:
  • The most effective type of neutral I've found as Raiden is by walking back a lot, bullying WW with his projectile and lightning strings to build meter, and going for held MB DB1 to enforce mixups and/or respect.
  • Wonder Woman's shield tosses can be punished with a reversal superman ( = Electric Fly = BF3). Normal ground toss can be punished from everywhere but the absolute max range, and air shield can be punished if the superman reaches before WWs feet touch the ground.
    • This makes it risky for WW to throw out random shields
  • Because Raiden is very good at punishing, it prevents WW from going for certain shenanigans such as canceling into whip to be safe, as Raiden's D1 has good range and can sometimes punish these attempts at safeness.

Overall, I think the matchup is 6-4 for Wonder Woman because her shields are still very oppressive against Raiden (especially in the corner), she outfootsies him pretty hard and her wakeup stops most of Raiden's oki. Even with that though, 7-3 feels too harsh because in my experience, the matchup is doable as long as you're very patient about what you do.​

• Raiden vs Darkseid is listed as a 6-4, but shouldn't it be more like a 5-5 in theory? I'll admit that I've fought very few good Darkseid players as Raiden, but people in the I2 Raiden discord have noted how due to Darkseid's high recovery on omega beams, Raiden can get a punish on a read with normal teleport and maybe a punish on reaction with MB teleport. I'd like to hear what this matchup is all about according to Bkith.
  
  
• Raiden vs Grodd, same deal, how come it's noted as a 6-4? An interesting thing Raiden can do to counter leaps is to use DB2 to catch him out, with traited DB2 giving him a full ~35% damage. Getting trait out at all vs Grodd is easy because he doesn't have any projectiles to hit you out of a trait call. Again, I'd like to hear the reasoning here, if only so I get a better idea of the matchup in practice rather than the theory in my head.

 

[God Confirm]

I'm just pointing out that our Flash and Cold reps don't appear to participate very frequently, if at all, on this particular website, and are therefore very unlikely to respond to your posts. I play neither character at a high level and am therefore unable to offer an adequate breakdown of the matchup.

I am, however, offering to relay your breakdown of the MU to our Cold and Flash representatives, if you are willing to offer a breakdown. We can't just relay every MU somebody generally disagrees with without explaination, lol.

I'm literally going way out of my way to try and accomodate you here; work with me, just a little.

The purpose of pointing out that our Flash rep aslo agreed with the Manta MU was to say that the number we arrived at wasn't a result of Chernny running roughshot all over the place. Requiring both character representatives to agree is a check and balance designed in part to prevent exactly that.

You are entitled to disagree, and encouraged to share those disagreements.

Breakdown what? I don't have a breakdown, I don't play this game that much, so I'm asking for an explanation.

If you can't do that don't make a list

 

[Braindead]

Because Raiden is very good at punishing, it prevents WW from going for certain shenanigans such as canceling into whip to be safe, as Raiden's D1 has good range and can sometimes punish these attempts at safeness.

TBF the only thing she has that can be made "safe" by canceling into whip is her d2. All other normals/strings are safe already.

Me doing d2 whip in your d1 range is just something that I need to stop doing in general more than it being a MU specific thing.

 

[neveradestroyer]

Well!. Better getting up that Captain Cold at least 2 spots because... Cold now can frame trap You up close. With the new tool plus his inherently high damage 420 at minimun. Also, He belongs to the elite team that does a 400 + combo for a bar as an anti air combo. most of former 7-3 match-ups are no more and he got more 5-5 match-ups than ever now. In my opinion:
He goes even 5-5 wonder woman, still loses to Aquaman 6-4, He beats Flash 7-3, He beats Cheetah 7-3, He beats Batman 6-4, He loses to blue Beetle 4-6, He beats green lantern 6-4 (Outdamages it), Loses to Hellboy 7-3, loses To Poison Ivy 7-3, He's even with Superman 5-5,Loses to Harley Quinn 7-3,Loses to Redhood 6-4, Goes even with Grodd 5-5,Beats Enchantress 7-3(Out-Damages her), Beats Donatello and Raphael 6-4, goes even With Leonardo and Raphael 5-5, He beats Atom 6-4 out damages it, Beats Bane 6-4, Goes even with Joker 5-5, Goes even with Sub zero 5-5, Beats Black manta 6-4 (Out damages it), even with Deadshot 5-5, Cyborg beats him 6-4, Geen Arrow Beats Him 7-3, He goes even with Braniac 5-5, Goes even with Darkseid 5-5, Goes even WIth Raiden 5-5; Loses to Dr Fate 7-3, loses to black adam 6-4, Beats Catwoman 6-4,loses 6-4 to Firestorm.

The ones with good Evasion, Damage and good Zoning still beats him. If one of these conditions are lacking in the character.. Cold most like it beats him now. With b2+3+2 being a plus on block advancing mid now. He can stagger pressure into insane damage now. Cold players Have a rush down option now. He's way more dangerous that the chart shows.

 

[Undergroundepict]

Breakdown what? I don't have a breakdown, I don't play this game that much, so I'm asking for an explanation.

If you can't do that don't make a list

Lol I'm sorry I can't break down every MU in the game.

I'm the Superman rep. I have nothing to do with Captain Cold or Flash.

If you can't offer a quick breakdown or state a single reason backing up your assertion that our number for this MU is incorrect, then why were you so adamant about it in the first place? I mean, what the fuck are you doing here?

 

[God Confirm]

Lol I'm sorry I can't break down every MU in the game.

I'm the Superman rep. I have nothing to do with Captain Cold or Flash.

If you can't offer a quick breakdown or state a single reason backing up your assertion that our number for this MU is incorrect, then why were you so adamant about it in the first place? I mean, what the fuck are you doing here?

if you are going to post a tier list, don't FLIP OUT in anger like you are doing right now when people ask for an explanation of a match up number lmao

 

[Undergroundepict]

if you are going to post a tier list, don't FLIP OUT in anger like you are doing right now when people ask for an explanation of a match up number lmao

If my post conveyed rage then it was purely by accident. My writing seems to accidently convey anger from time to time, even when the context and subject matter are light and non-confrontational.

The emotion I was aiming to convey was perplexity. I'm genuinely perplexed. I genuinely don't understand what you are doing at this point, aside from possibly trolling, which if that is your intention, please chill. This website is already so oversaturated with shitposting and trolling that it doesn't come across as funny or cute anymore; it's just cliche. It would be nice to, just for a moment, return to the days where we used to have substantive discussion on TYM.

​

 

[God Confirm]

If my post conveyed rage then it was purely by accident. My writing seems to accidently convey anger from time to time, even when the context and subject matter are light and non-confrontational.

The emotion I was aiming to convey was perplexity. I'm genuinely perplexed. I genuinely don't understand what you are doing at this point, aside from possibly trolling, which if that is your intention, please chill. This website is already so oversaturated with shitposting and trolling that it doesn't come across as funny or cute anymore; it's just cliche. It would be nice to, just for a moment, return to the days where we used to have substantive discussion on TYM.

​

Genuinely perplexed? What I'm doing is asking why your match up chart says what it does about a specific match up.... It's really not that difficult.

 

[God Confirm]

"here's my numbers now you have to prove why I'm wrong"

I don't even know if you are wrong. Just asking a question. If you can't answer don't make a tier list. If it's a joint effort, don't make it with people who won't answer. Lol.

 

[Cursa]

Jesus Christ I forgot how incredibly painful threads like this can be.

 

[Braindead]

@Undergroundepict can we get a list of the contributing members? Would be good too if you could say who's responsible for what character's chart.

I have major beef with the Green Arrow guy.

 

[Cursa]

@Undergroundepict can we get a list of the contributing members? Would be good too if you could say who's responsible for what character's chart.

I have major beef with the Green Arrow guy.

There's literally a list on the website in the op tho

Injustice 2 -> Character Council, or something along those lines.

Or I could just https://www.nrstierlist.com/games/injustice-2/character-council/

 

[Undergroundepict]

Jesus Christ I forgot how incredibly painful threads like this can be.

Lol, yeah I'm done.

"here's my numbers now you have to prove why I'm wrong"

I don't even know if you are wrong. Just asking a question. If you can't answer don't make a tier list. If it's a joint effort, don't make it with people who won't answer. Lol.

I mean, TYM isn't the center of the universe. Not everybody who contributed is an active member here.

It was our job to create the tier list for our specific characters, not to be on call at every possible forum or social media service every time somebody has a question.

What myself and the other members of the Council are doing by participating in this particular thread most definitely qualifies as "extra" shit. Some members of the Council have neither the time, energy, nor patience to participate in community outreach stuff like this. I'm here, but it would be unfair to expect every single member of the Council to be here as well. Crafting the chart was enough work, lol. It would be unreasonable to then expect members to develop a more active and available social media profile after the bulk of the work has already been done.

 

[Braindead]

There's literally a list on the website in the op tho

Injustice 2 -> Character Council, or something along those lines.

Or I could just https://www.nrstierlist.com/games/injustice-2/character-council/

Good to know. The site is blocked here at work for some reason so I'll have to check it out when I'm home.

 

[Undergroundepict]

@Undergroundepict can we get a list of the contributing members? Would be good too if you could say who's responsible for what character's chart.

I have major beef with the Green Arrow guy.

Here you go:

https://www.nrstierlist.com/games/injustice-2/character-council/


Edit: Oh shit, Cursa beat me to it.

SoundslikePAUSE was our Green Arrow rep.

 

[God Confirm]

If I was the Green Arrow guy I would be doing my best to keep my distance from Braindead for a while he's heated bout that number

 

[Braindead]

@SoundsLikePAUSE I thought we're cool but now we need to settle this filet mignon.

How on earth does Arrow lose 4-6 to Wowo?

 

[Espio]

If anyone has questions about Blue Beetle or Cheetah match ups, please do not hesitate to tag me @Espio