Strategy 21 Poke Pressure

[Lord Beef]

I think the biggest problem is that people still aren't sure how Sub should be played. I mean, the idea of 21 pressure has been around forever but it is still being discussed.
Sub Zero is not a rushdown character. He's completely footsie oriented. Base your strategy around that.

I agree completely.

 

[Truth]

BTW... it takes a *Just Frame* 6frame move to punish 2,1,2 between the 1 and the 2.

This is incorrect information, you're interpreting the frame data wrong here. To determine the gaps in between the strings you take the cancel advantage on block and subtract it from the execution frames. With the case of the 21 string here is the data about the cancel advantage on block:
2,1 - +18
2,1,2 - +28

Here is the data on execution frames:
2,1 - 18
2,1,2 - 24

You can't poke in between the first part of the 21 string (so there is no gap in between the first 2 and 1), however, in the case of 212, the 1 and the second 2 has a 4 frame gap allowing you to use parries, xrays, moves with armor and invincibility (like Cage's Ex-np, Raiden's teleport) to get through the gap.

21 pressure isn't entirely that bad, but the major flaws in it is you can poke SZ before he does the 21 string and sometimes the 2 whiffs on low hitbox characters. Another thing is if you do 21~D3, you can potentially be crossed over and be blown up.

Best thing is either end the string completely into clone or do 21 and block low against a poke attempt, then counterpoke back. The 3rd option is to do 21 and then walk back in an attempt to whiff punish, but this requires conditioning on your behalf.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

2 1 pressure is really bad imo, at least against characters that can armour the 212 string, that forces you to have to 214 everytime which gives worse clone placement in the corner.

If they can armour the 212 that means you cant do stuff like 2 1 d4/d3/throw

Obviously use the string, but mixed in with 22(4) on hit(block)

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

This is incorrect information, you're interpreting the frame data wrong here. To determine the gaps in between the strings you take the cancel advantage on block and subtract it from the execution frames. With the case of the 21 string here is the data about the cancel advantage on block:
2,1 - +18
2,1,2 - +28

Here is the data on execution frames:
2,1 - 18
2,1,2 - 24

You can't poke in between the first part of the 21 string (so there is no gap in between the first 2 and 1), however, in the case of 212, the 1 and the second 2 has a 4 frame gap allowing you to use parries, xrays, moves with armor and invincibility (like Cage's Ex-np, Raiden's teleport) to get through the gap.

21 pressure isn't entirely that bad, but the major flaws in it is you can poke SZ before he does the 21 string and sometimes the 2 whiffs on low hitbox characters. Another thing is if you do 21~D3, you can potentially be crossed over and be blown up.

Best thing is either end the string completely into clone or do 21 and block low against a poke attempt, then counterpoke back. The 3rd option is to do 21 and then walk back in an attempt to whiff punish, but this requires conditioning on your behalf.

you aren't canceling 2,1,2 off of 2,1,2. you are canceling it off of 2,1. 24-18 is 6. I'm pretty sure that is how the frame data works.

 

[SunnyD]

they'll still poke you out of 2,1,2... jesus. 6 frame moves can interrupt the 1 and 2. If you train them to constantly see only 2,1 then they'll EASILY pick that apart.

Christ id like to see that. a 2% d1, and if you mistime it full combo punish? Not the best of trades.

 

[Truth]

you aren't canceling 2,1,2 off of 2,1,2. you are canceling it off of 2,1. 24-18 is 6. I'm pretty sure that is how the frame data works.

Have you tried testing the gap in between 21? I was never able to poke out of 21 from the 212 with 6 frame pokes, plus the animation looks fluid since there is no small pause when SZ does 2 then 1. Somberness can you confirm there is no gap in between 21, but a 4 frame gap in between 212?

Edit: You can't take the cancel advantage and subtract it from another cancel advantage to calculate the gaps. Like I said you have to take the cancel adv. on block and subtract it from execution frames. Somberness even posted about it in another thread.

 

[SunnyD]

Have you tried testing the gap in between 21? I was never able to poke out of 21 from the 212 with 6 frame pokes, plus the animation looks fluid since there is no small pause when SZ does 2 then 1. Somberness can you confirm there is no gap in between 21, but a 4 frame gap in between 212?

There is a 6 frame gap, otherwise you wouldnt be able to Kung Lao spin out of 212, which you can.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Christ id like to see that. a 2% d1, and if you mistime it full combo punish? Not the best of trades.

unless you commit to doing a 2,1,2~freeze on block... then you aren't getting that full combo... all you are getting is the 2 to hit and thats it. Thats just bad game plan.

 

[Truth]

There is a 6 frame gap, otherwise you wouldnt be able to Kung Lao spin out of 212, which you can.

Okay I get what you're saying now, so then what is the cancel advantage for block on the last hit of a string for? Would it just be used for knowing the cancel advantage off of linked special moves?

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

2,1,2 cancels into clone ice ball slide... etc. Shows if they are interruptible or not.

 

[SunnyD]

Okay I get what you're saying now, so then what is the cancel advantage for block on the last hit of a string for? Would it just be used for knowing the cancel advantage off of linked special moves?

2 takes 9 frames. 21 takes the original 9 frames PLUS 18 frames for the second hit. Total 27 frames. Then another 24 frames for 212. Total of 51 frames. Right?

Okay, cancel advantage on block of 21 is 18 frames. It takes 24 frames for last hit to come out in 212 string. 24 - 18 = 6 frames. Hey presto there's you pokable gap.

Something that irks most people is that they see "27" beside the entire string, and they thing its the entire string. ITS NOT. Just the time between the previous hit and the last hit.

Thats how i understand it. Somberness correct me if im wrong?

 

[STB Sgt Reed]

All this frame data talk... my head just exploded...

 

[Somberness]

Yeah, 212 has a 6 frame gap at the end, player 2 can't use a 6 frame move to get out unless it's spin.

 

[NRF CharlieMurphy]

Yeah, 212 has a 6 frame gap at the end, player 2 can't use a 6 frame move to get out unless it's spin.

this is hilarious btw. So you have to be player one to poke it. HAHAHAHA. MORTAL KOMBAT.

 

[SunnyD]

this is hilarious btw. So you have to be player one to poke it. HAHAHAHA. MORTAL KOMBAT.

Not if you use Kung Lao. Trololo

 

[Wildabeast]

There are certain characters Sub Zero can get away with 2,1 pressuring. But for the most part you're much better off going for 2,2 except in the corner.