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Question - Reptile Reptile's needed Forceball buff

Zaccel

Zaccel

Noob
OFIDYAN said:
I'm just gonna be real with y'all for a second..

This would not make Reptile broken.

1. Decreased startup on Forceball now 20 frames, down from 33 frames

2. Acid Spit damage increased by 2 making it 7% up from 5%

3. Ex Klaw Pounce now -5 on block down from -1,000,000 frames

4. Ex Slide is now a pop-up allowing for a small juggle.. aka same type of pop-up as Ex Reptilian Dash

How's that?
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1. That may be a bit extreme. If we're going to compare him to Sub-Zero, FB startup could just achieve parity with Ice Ball. The recovery on meterless ones would be nice if they were enough for 14xxFB to not get murdered by reversals (and for EX frames to reflect meterless FB improvements). That's already asking a lot.

2. Spit's a token projectile. I wouldn't sweat it as much as FBs. It's not great, but whatever.

3. I don't think the EX version's so bad. Yeah, it's risky, but at least it's a long-distance armoured combo starter. The meterless version's safety for what it gives, though, is totally nonsensical.

4. Just as giving EX ED armour would invalidate EX Slide, letting EX Slide start combos would invalidate EX ED. They suit different purposes and aren't jeopardizing Reptile with their current dynamic.

Reptile starves for meter, but cranking up EX moves isn't going to make that easier. A safe (but disadvantaged) db2 and more practical FBs would do a lot on their own. If he could build meter with -5 or so blockstrings, the occasional neutral FB, and more mid-combo FB options, that may prove enough.
 
THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
I don't think he needs better forceballs. Could he use them? Yes, but honestly, I feel like everyone is trying to still play him like MK9 and not actually adjusting their play to how his tools actually allow. Does he lack safe specials? Yes, but almost every normal you will be using with him is usually safe on block, and + on block. It's not really necessary. Forceballs don't have many actual setups, but it's not absolutely impossible to get them out, and when they're out...they still force reactions, whether it's block, jump over, low profile, etc. There's ways to get them out, it doesn't have to be systematic or built around a setup.

I feel like his core tools are built around the variations, but his variations aren't giving him that oomph because they take meter to really use. Improving those would help, but I understand why Cossner has said he'd be fine if Reptile didn't change a lot more now, and feel the same way.
 
OFIDYAN

OFIDYAN

F3
Zaccel said:
1. That may be a bit extreme. If we're going to compare him to Sub-Zero, FB startup could just achieve parity with Ice Ball. The recovery on meterless ones would be nice if they were enough for 14xxFB to not get murdered by reversals (and for EX frames to reflect meterless FB improvements). That's already asking a lot.

2. Spit's a token projectile. I wouldn't sweat it as much as FBs. It's not great, but whatever.

3. I don't think the EX version's so bad. Yeah, it's risky, but at least it's a long-distance armoured combo starter. The meterless version's safety for what it gives, though, is totally nonsensical.

4. Just as giving EX ED armour would invalidate EX Slide, letting EX Slide start combos would invalidate EX ED. They suit different purposes and aren't jeopardizing Reptile with their current dynamic.

Reptile starves for meter, but cranking up EX moves isn't going to make that easier. A safe (but disadvantaged) db2 and more practical FBs would do a lot on their own. If he could build meter with -5 or so blockstrings, the occasional neutral FB, and more mid-combo FB options, that may prove enough.
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Very well put on the starving for meter. Removing the Ex Reptilian Dash altogether would definitely be fine with me if they don't give it armor or something...

Armor on Ex Reptilian Dash
(Needs to be a real thing)

Building more meter on block strings would be okay. Reptile's block strings are just nothing near the power of other characters. I play Kenshi, Kano, Sonya, plenty of characters. To see the meter they build and how plus or neutral they are while doing it is crazy. I think if Reptile could be slightly more plus on strings (the good ones) then it would make his pressure more viable. Plus enough or have enough hit advantage to throw out that 33frame Forceball without being punished for it/them not respecting it at all and just hoping over it as you realize that you picked the wrong character.
 
OFIDYAN

OFIDYAN

F3
DubiousShenron said:
since when is sonya plus on any strings? shes literally punishable on everyone lol
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It's more so Kano and Kenshi being plus or neutral, but they both build hella meter and so does Sonya, it's awesome to just throw out parrys from full screen with Sonya since she recovers so fast from them. Cool meter building stuff like that it what Reptile needs.
 
DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
OFIDYAN said:
It's more so Kano and Kenshi being plus or neutral, but they both build hella meter and so does Sonya, it's awesome to just throw out parrys from full screen with Sonya since she recovers so fast from them. Cool meter building stuff like that it what Reptile needs.
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sonya doesnt build hella meter, she just doesnt need it for anything...there's a difference

that being said, i still see where your coming from with reptile -- he probably has the worst meter build in the game (negative specials and probably worst zoning)
 
OFIDYAN

OFIDYAN

F3
DubiousShenron said:
sonya doesnt build hella meter, she just doesnt need it for anything...there's a difference

that being said, i still see where your coming from with reptile -- he probably has the worst meter build in the game (negative specials and probably worst zoning)
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True Sonya doesn't really need meter for much, but have you ever played against some really good Sonya's? My scene includes, Showtime, Scar, Aya, etc. They build a lot of meter dive kicking around for movement, throwing parrys out safely, and plenty just doing special forces things :)

@DubiousShenron What do you think Reptile would benefit more from? Better forceballs or better meter building on block strings?
 
Israel

Israel

Noob
THTB said:
I don't think he needs better forceballs. Could he use them? Yes, but honestly, I feel like everyone is trying to still play him like MK9 and not actually adjusting their play to how his tools actually allow. Does he lack safe specials? Yes, but almost every normal you will be using with him is usually safe on block, and + on block. It's not really necessary. Forceballs don't have many actual setups, but it's not absolutely impossible to get them out, and when they're out...they still force reactions, whether it's block, jump over, low profile, etc. There's ways to get them out, it doesn't have to be systematic or built around a setup.

I feel like his core tools are built around the variations, but his variations aren't giving him that oomph because they take meter to really use. Improving those would help, but I understand why Cossner has said he'd be fine if Reptile didn't change a lot more now, and feel the same way.
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Yes i agree with this post all the way. After playing a lot of games i recently, im fine if they dont change the balls at all. because they kind of do what i want them to do now. to either block for a second...or to have them jump. Having set ups are pretty much out the window for them now unless u burn a bar.. He really is cool the way he is now, some variation changes will be nice but for the most part....Yea, hes ok.
 
Israel

Israel

Noob
However im all in for the ex acid spit changes to apply like normal or like EB's spikes. That would make the move usefull! =D
 
DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

i'LL DESTROY YOU ALL
from MK9 to MKX i always compare him to SZ, and i fell reptile : need faster recovery, for ex version should be like SZ one mean kill all projectiles, more damage for acid split (high and useless damage), cross up should connect better, and please like i cry for all pure rushdown characters, give them all FASTER run speed.

Why zoners like SZ and shinnok run much faster then reptile, jax, cassie ?
 
DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
OFIDYAN said:
True Sonya doesn't really need meter for much, but have you ever played against some really good Sonya's? My scene includes, Showtime, Scar, Aya, etc. They build a lot of meter dive kicking around for movement, throwing parrys out safely, and plenty just doing special forces things :)

@DubiousShenron What do you think Reptile would benefit more from? Better forceballs or better meter building on block strings?
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better forceballs honestly, i think everyone would admit that. they should at least be usable. reptile plays a strong ground game and forceball should play an integral part in that but sadly does not. reptiles air control as awful at best so usable fbs would feel more suitable for him
 
Zaccel

Zaccel

Noob
OFIDYAN said:
What do you think Reptile would benefit more from? Better forceballs or better meter building on block strings?
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As weird as it sounds, I think FBs would benefit more from a safe db2. FBs are totally fine if you're spending meter on them, but that's a tough pill to swallow for Reptile. His meter build is a struggle, and there's a lot of options for him to spend meter on, so a safe db2 could make choosing an EX FB more appealing. I don't think a Reptile who has to be choosy with his strong EX options--but gets those options at a more respectable rate--would be too crazy.

On the other hand, better FB frames could lead to gaining meter in neutral more easily, possibly stronger setups, and possibly better meter in combos? It would still be useful, but I think giving meterless db2 some presence would make the purpose of FBs feel more complete.
 
DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
Zaccel said:
As weird as it sounds, I think FBs would benefit more from a safe db2. FBs are totally fine if you're spending meter on them, but that's a tough pill to swallow for Reptile. His meter build is a struggle, and there's a lot of options for him to spend meter on, so a safe db2 could make choosing an EX FB more appealing. I don't think a Reptile who has to be choosy with his strong EX options--but gets those options at a more respectable rate--would be too crazy.

On the other hand, better FB frames could lead to gaining meter in neutral more easily, possibly stronger setups, and possibly better meter in combos? It would still be useful, but I think giving meterless db2 some presence would make the purpose of FBs feel more complete.
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i really dont see the relation between safe klaw and fbs at all...
 
dribirut

dribirut

BLAK FELOW
THTB said:
I don't think he needs better forceballs. Could he use them? Yes, but honestly, I feel like everyone is trying to still play him like MK9 and not actually adjusting their play to how his tools actually allow. Does he lack safe specials? Yes, but almost every normal you will be using with him is usually safe on block, and + on block. It's not really necessary. Forceballs don't have many actual setups, but it's not absolutely impossible to get them out, and when they're out...they still force reactions, whether it's block, jump over, low profile, etc. There's ways to get them out, it doesn't have to be systematic or built around a setup.

I feel like his core tools are built around the variations, but his variations aren't giving him that oomph because they take meter to really use. Improving those would help, but I understand why Cossner has said he'd be fine if Reptile didn't change a lot more now, and feel the same way.
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I don't want to be a dick but didn't you drop reptile for kenshi as a main?
 
THTB

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
dribirut said:
I don't want to be a dick but didn't you drop reptile for kenshi as a main?
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Kinda, but not really. I was still using Reptile, just focusing on seeing what was up with Kenshi because he seemed interesting, and started using him more when the patch came out. I started using him less the more I felt he wasn't for me, and then just went back to Reptile 100%.
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
I don't want to forceball just to get scorpion ex teleported or subzero slided anytime after it guaranteed.
 
OFIDYAN

OFIDYAN

F3
I need a dislike button.

And yeah having better forceballs, even just shaving the recovery off would create..

Setups
Better Meter Building
And some safer zoning

I'm all for it, and there is no way that would be overpowered. He still needs armor on EX Reptilian Dash in my opinion, but I know that's something he'll most likely never get. But please don't tell me that would make EX Slide useless. Do you guys know other characters have plenty of moves that have armor on them for the same effect?? SPACE CONTROL. SPACING....

Kenshi for example has armor EX Rising Karma and EX push, among other moves as well. Why? Space Control, Certain Punishes, etc.

Why can't Reptile have it too? It's not like asking him to build as much meter as Kenshi, but can we please get some punishes that don't require EX Slide?? Reptile (unlike Kenshi) needs his meter. We can't be EX sliding for 8% all the time because "oh yeah that's a punish"
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Yes you can, that's how you punish subzero clone didn't you hear? You see a clone, you spend all your meter for 8% x 3, and then you die horribly from b2 and slide spam.
That's how they would have it.
 
Israel

Israel

Noob
They aint give the homie Armor on ex dash in mk9, and they still wont this time. I guess they will find it too useful and would rather have us use slide. We cant be doing the same thangs as KL (7f move w/ armor), thats what seperates shaolin from the ninjas.

But if u think about it, this would make him have armor on 3moves. I cant think of many char's with 3 armour moves...Radien comes to mind, but would the fact that he have 3 armour moves, make it OP?

And i change my mind kinda, dubious is right, Reptile is a ground game type. a small ball buff would complete him in this area. He can already get out zoned by anyone w/ a mid projectile with normal speed.
 
DubiousShenron

DubiousShenron

Beware my power.
Guys,

Just think of Reptile's matchup strategies against the 2 most iconic characters in the game.

Scorpion: I feel like the only thing we can do in this MU is block and punish -- there's nothing to make Scorpion respect Reptile. So basically you beat Scorpion by doing basically nothing and letting him hang himself. Scorpion only loses when he makes a mistake cough wakeup EX tele cough.

Subzero (GM): counter opposite of Scorpion MU. Can't do a goddamn thing. every option reptile has is basically a horizontal attack so he cant move against sub and his zoning tools are so bad that you dont even really want to use them because you will get ice ball'd

Reptile struggles against the easy-tier ninjas because there's literally nothing that Reptile has that they need to respect. I think every one of their tools (special moves) may be better than any and every one of Reptile's tools, no joke..

If Reptile is going to be respected or even put up a fight against Scorp or Sub, he's going to need some dirt on them
, like a usable forceball!

Make sense? Agree, disagree?
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Agree, but I've been able to punish 214 and f2 from scorpion with dash (non hellfire people). I think it's guaranteed. That won't stop them from yolo j3 spam teleport all day that you can't do jack shit about though.
 
Zaccel

Zaccel

Noob
DubiousShenron said:
If Reptile is going to be respected or even put up a fight against Scorp or Sub, he's going to need some dirt on them, like a usable forceball!
Make sense? Agree, disagree?
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I haven't fought a Scorpion since the patch (my one Scorpion-playing friend dropped him)--does the 7-frame d3 change the Scorpion matchup much? I felt like he was a nuisance before, but I can't speak about how much respect Reptile has now.

Subby's EX Slide makes Reptile weep. To be fair, there are ways around him (f412xxbf2, f412xxEX SFB slightly delayed etc.), but I think Reptile's preference for the ground means Sub-Zero will always be an uphill battle. Perhaps if 14xxSFB didn't get blown up by reversals it'd work out better? A safe HKD meterless FB setup could mean precious meter saved for punching through clones, etc.?
 
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