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My Updated Kenshi MU Chart - I Proclaim Kenshi is #1!

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
MU charts/numbers are based on the MU, no human influence is factored in. So even though a MU is 10-0, it doesn't mean it's unwinnable, because human influence isn't factored in.
Ok but that still doesn't make any sense because reads have to be made... jade technically has an option to beat everything kenshi does. does that mean she wins the matchup? no way. So that means the matchup is really based on the guessing games that are created in the match and whose favor risk reward wise they are in. Therefore jade has to, by probability, win eventually. So can we really call it 10 0. btw I understand your point completely, I just think this is an interesting debate.
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Ok but that still doesn't make any sense because reads have to be made... jade technically has an option to beat everything kenshi does. does that mean she wins the matchup? no way. So that means the matchup is really based on the guessing games that are created in the match and whose favor risk reward wise they are in. Therefore jade has to, by probability, win eventually. So can we really call it 10 0. btw I understand your point completely, I just think this is an interesting debate.
Dude, Match-up numbers don't factor in whether you make good reads or not, because as I've said, human involvement isn't factored into match-ups. MU's are based on the characters and the tools they have, not making good reads or outplaying your opponent. So based on that, you can have a character that has no tools or options against another character, but you can still win based on good reads or being simply a better player. But that doesn't factor into MU #'s because it's a universal concept.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Dude, Match-up numbers don't factor in whether you make good reads or not, because as I've said, human involvement isn't factored into match-ups. MU's are based on the characters and the tools they have, not making good reads or outplaying your opponent. So based on that, you can have a character that has no tools or options against another character, but you can still win based on good reads or being simply a better player. But that doesn't factor into MU #'s because it's a universal concept.
I am not talking about reads. At all. Ready. Kenshi has a tool - spirit charge. Jade has a tool against that- jump. And you can go on like that for everything kenshi or jade or any character can do really, unless they had an infinite from the moment the match started. lets just start there. Will you agree with that?
 

Under_The_Mayo

Master of Quanculations
Ugh I'm torn on it honestly

I really am but what it came down to was I feel the 6-4 I have listed are harder than playing her

I could swing that MU # either way

Ill out it this way, with my Sonya me using her I don't fear any kenshi
Definitely agree here. It's one of those matches where Kenshi has a technical advantage on paper, but Sonya is one of those characters that can all of a sudden burst through with one of her great options and suddenly like 60% of you're life is gone and you're in a bad position. It's a match that can easily go like this... "Yeah..Yeah that's right sonya. Yeah! Spirit Charge. Boom. Yeah. I got you. Wait..NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO"
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
I am not talking about reads. At all.
"Ok but that still doesn't make any sense because reads have to be made..."

"So the question is then, is it possible for jade to make enough correct reads to win a game when playing with no human error?"



Kenshi has a tool - spirit charge. Jade has a tool against that- jump. And you can go on like that for everything kenshi or jade or any character can do really, unless they had an infinite from the moment the match started. lets just start there. Will you agree with that?
That's not a tool Jade has, that's a tool every character has. Like I said, universal tools aren't factored in and making good reads or outplaying the opponent isn't factored in because they're universal concepts. That doesn't mean there can't be a 10-0 MU because all of what you're talking about isn't factored in when you're talking about the MU.

I don't know how else to say that, and I don't know what you're not getting.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
"Ok but that still doesn't make any sense because reads have to be made..."

"So the question is then, is it possible for jade to make enough correct reads to win a game when playing with no human error?"





That's not a tool Jade has, that's a tool every character has. Like I said, universal tools aren't factored in and making good reads or outplaying the opponent isn't factored in because they're universal concepts. That doesn't mean there can't be a 10-0 MU because all of what you're talking about isn't factored in when you're talking about the MU.

I don't know how else to say that, and I don't know what you're not getting.
Fair enough, I used the word read where I should have used tool. That was my personal mistake. However, I do not understand why universal tools are not factored in. I am going to go into super theory here, but i am trying to prove a point, so keep with me haha. There is a game with two identical characters with these abilities: to jump and only do damage from the jump (jip or whatever) and an antiair. however one character has a move that is only punishable by jumping. Are you telling me that the matchup is 10-0 because you cannot factor in jumping since it is a universal tool? Because if so matchup numbers do not depict what it is said they depict. Of course, honestly this argument only comes into play with a 10-0 matchup because that is something that technically breaks our system in a way, or how our community sees the system at least. And if that didn't make any sense to you, don't worry about it haha.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Cage should be 3-7 ATLEAST not 2-8 ewah. Kabal kenshi is 7-3 for kabal and sonya kenshi should be 5-5
I think it's pretty clear that Kenshi beats cage 8 2 unless you have some hidden tech. I mean seriously if he has a bar you can't do anything, lol. Sonya I disagree with but it is more reasonable.
 

HGTV Soapboxfan

"Always a Pleasure"
Is a 10-0 MU even allowed in a MU chart?
Yes. I just went through this juggs. It's not actually a theoretical ten games, it's an arbitrary number showing character specific tools vs character specific tools. mu numbers therefore also have almost no relevance to tournament.
 

Vocket

Day 1 Phenomenal Teth-Adam Player
Yes. I just went through this juggs. It's not actually a theoretical ten games, it's an arbitrary number showing character specific tools vs character specific tools. mu numbers therefore also have almost no relevance to tournament.
You know this reminded me of why I hate using x-y mu chart numbers.
I am going to steal the brawl smash mu chart system and say that we should use that. (http://smashboards.com/threads/official-swf-matchup-chart-v2-0.316173/)

-4: (close to) unwinnable
-3: large disadvantage/hard countered
-2: medium disadvantage
-1: small disadvantage
0: even
+1: small advantage
+2: medium advantage
+3: large advantage/hard counter
+4: (close to) unloseable
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Premium Supporter
Yes. I just went through this juggs. It's not actually a theoretical ten games, it's an arbitrary number showing character specific tools vs character specific tools. mu numbers therefore also have almost no relevance to tournament.
The problem is that it's portrayed as just a theoretical 10 games, when it's really about tools vs tools. In 10 games, how many times would X beat Y based on their tools. And people also view the MU #'s as some kind of "law". For one MU #'s constantly change, they are still changing in games 10+ years old. The #'s are arbitrary and don't factor in the most important thing, the PLAYER. So even 10-0 MU's aren't unwinnable, because the only thing factored in are tools vs tools.

Think about it this way, Match-up numbers are based on the match-up BEFORE the fight begins. Who has the advantage or disadvantage based on their tools and options. Once the match starts, and the player factor comes into play, the MU #'s become completely irrelevant because another BIG variable is added to the mix. A variable that CANNOT be factored in to the MU #'s because the human factor is inconsistent and doesn't follow any logic or law.
 

Obs_SmSwag

"I have good taste because I like what I like"
After Playin' BlindMan and Pig, i'll have to agree with Lao being 5-5 for now. Nobody has proven otherwise. I wanna believe Lao wins it, but until it actually happens the Lao community can't say anything. That's just my 2 cents.
 
The problem is that it's portrayed as just a theoretical 10 games, when it's really about tools vs tools. In 10 games, how many times would X beat Y based on their tools. And people also view the MU #'s as some kind of "law". For one MU #'s constantly change, they are still changing in games 10+ years old. The #'s are arbitrary and don't factor in the most important thing, the PLAYER. So even 10-0 MU's aren't unwinnable, because the only thing factored in are tools vs tools.

Think about it this way, Match-up numbers are based on the match-up BEFORE the fight begins. Who has the advantage or disadvantage based on their tools and options. Once the match starts, and the player factor comes into play, the MU #'s become completely irrelevant because another BIG variable is added to the mix. A variable that CANNOT be factored in to the MU #'s because the human factor is inconsistent and doesn't follow any logic or law.
I see what you are saying but if it is based off of just the tools they have ore match starting then all matchups should either be 10-0 5-5, or 0-10. If its only tools and not how humans implement them then whoever has the best tools wins every time on paper.
 

Pig Of The Hut

Day 0 Phenomenal Dr. Fate and Darkseid player
lol why don't you go online and play someone like SuperiorMagic, I bet you couldn't win one game vs his Kabal. Stop playing scrubby Kabals and calling it 5-5
Since dallas mlg ive beaten OFFLINE

cd jr
cat - so bad he said hed never use kabal on me
pl
barely lost to detroit
k7
soonk
lulzlou
Dab
forever king
TESTYOURMIGHT (i forget his new xbox name)
and i train w unarmingsummer

Your move sir. Im not sure how you missed this? I made a huge deal about it.