General/Other - Sub-Zero Does Predator Invalidate Sub-Zero?

[Samsara]

Taking a look at Predator, it wouldn't take one long to discover that he's got all the tools to essentially invalidate or at least significantly trounce Sub-Zero as a character--- at least that's what I feel:

1) He has higher damage output than Sub-Zero's most damaging variation, Cryomancer, at midscreen. His corner carry is absurd as well. He has better footsies the disks threaten space quite well. His mixups don't appear to have gender requirements.

2) His corner play in the Hunter variation is superior to that of Grandmaster. The land mine stays active and doesn't appear to suffer any kind of gender or breathing requirements. Ex version also appears to be working fine as well and doesn't seem to appear useless at all. Able to construct extremely ambiguous mixups by timing strings and normals in tandem with the low mine. This is simply not the case in GM.

3) Predator is essentially becomes Unbreakable Sub-Zero whenever he wants to be in any variation, minus the woefully risky ice shield. If one thing definitely can be said it's that NRS either deliberately allowed this to be the case knowing it would break the variation or they forgot about Unbreakable the minute they finished hobbling it together pre-release.

Am I reading too much in to this? Is it too early? Am I downplaying just a little too much? Because right now I'm doing no nonsense 35+% combos meterless with full corner carry, and setting up hard-to-blockables with Predator as we speak. I love Subby to death but Predator seems to be more reward for less hassle at the moment.

Thoughts?

Update: I recognize that Sub-Zero has mobility and wakeup potential, I'm just not sure how it stacks up against Predators toolset and potential. I'm trying to have good discussion so please no whining for nerfs or petitioning for patches for ANY character.

Also ice clone is 1/2 of a functioning move in 1/3 of what makes Sub-Zero a character. I think it's also important to discuss how Cryo and Unbreakable measure up to Predator as well to get the best answer either for or against my assessment.

Update: This will be my last revision for clarity; I assumed we'd limit conversation to viability in high level play. So that's target discussion.

 

[SidTheHaze]

Here we go

 

[Samsara]

Here we go

I don't need to be right, here, just establishing my own feelings and waiting to hear from everyone else. I don't plan to have a popular or even acceptable view.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

I feel like the question is fair and if he wants opinions, then hell give him opinions. Seems like he's just curious on what the community thinks!

 

[AK Stormthegates]

Yes

 

[SidTheHaze]

I feel like the question is fair and if he wants opinions, then hell give him opinions. Seems like he's just curious on what the community thinks!

Its posts like this that make people cry for buffs in the 1st place. Now all the subs who don't switch to predator (because he's apparently a better version) are gonna feel entitled to buffs to make their character as good as predator since their gameplan is the "same".

Its an endless cycle.

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Its posts like this that make people cry for buffs in the 1st place. Now all the subs who don't switch to predator (because he's apparently a better version) are gonna feel entitled to buffs to make their character as good as predator since their gameplan is the "same".

Its an endless cycle.

tbh Sub is kinda fucked anyway let's be real. They aren't gonna fix him, even said he works as intended.

Also there were people asking for Sub buffs way before this thread, c'mon.

 

[HGTV Soapboxfan]

In @YOMI DJT voice... STAAAAAAHP

 

[RM_NINfan101]

Also, just to note, maybe if the games patch cycle wasn't from launch until the middle/beginning of fall you wouldn't have so many people asking for buffs, just saying.

This was something you guys should of stopped around MK9, now it's a thing. Grow to accept it, or just ignore the threads IMO. This has become your game. Our game.

 

[Shark Tank]

At least sub can wakeup

 

[NoobHunter420]

ppl underestimate the power of a fucking clone

 

[-narshkajke-]

Its posts like this that make people cry for buffs in the 1st place. Now all the subs who don't switch to predator (because he's apparently a better version) are gonna feel entitled to buffs to make their character as good as predator since their gameplan is the "same".

Its an endless cycle.

so far from what I read, sub kommunity mostly wants fix for the klone consistency and property, that is all

 

[Reauxbot]

Pretty good points there. Ive never played Sub Zero. Very few play anything outside Grandmaster online, sometimes i forget what his 3rd variation even does.

But his saw blades and traps go away on block which is annoying, but fair. Iceball is gonna win out a lot of zone wars for a combo.
But with Predator being new and all wait till we see all the dirt he has.
Subzero may also build meter faster.
Ice Clone still has its overall uses and the threat and mindgames are still there.
Also some of Predators setups involve NJP, Subzeros overhead punch completely fucks jumping.
I just think Subs mixups are better because its not telegraphed. I think Predators overhead has a kick before it, telling me to stand my ass up and block. Subzero has you guess

 

[@MylesWright_]

Wouldn't be the first time they replaced things with dlc

 

[Saviorself]

OP at release, nerfed over the weeks.

The MO of any dlc

 

[rza]

We hunter now boys

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Well, SZ has the 50/50, no matter how unsafe his B2 is it's at least still an option that Predator doesn't have. He is also much more mobile. And has MUCH better wake ups.

Predator has heavy advancing to (sort of) make up for the lack of mobility, MUCH higher damage (one of the highest damage characters in the game compared to one of the lowest), and better set-ups, corner game, and options. He gets far more off a Trap connect than SZ ever will.

There is some areas where SZ isn't completely outclassed by Predator. But at the end of the day, Predator is just a better character with a similar play style, he's a better SZ. I'll be sticking with both and keeping the pocket Sub, but Predator aka Sub-Maximum will see more play than Sub-Zero from me from now on without a doubt.


Here's where he'll fit in with my pool of characters

#1 Hat Trick Kung Lao
#2 Hunter Predator
#3 Grandmaster Sub-Zero

 

[ZeZe]

Obviously. Even Tom is dropping Sub after EVO for Hunter Pred, because Pred is more tournament viable and caters to everyone who liked Sub gameplay style. Hell Pred even has his 242 move (it's 212 for pred). So Sub is now casual players pick only.

Let me tell you this: every klone cancel (every single one, will it be MB klone cancel, or normal clone cancel from b1,2 or b3 in the corner) has a risk of whiffing and there is not even one way to set it consistently. Saw it multiple times on Tom's streams and is most likely the reason behind DJT not using it too often. Just pay attention when you happen to see him play Sub on Yomi streams: he would use F33 for wall carry, low pokes like d3, and would rather end combo in the corner with 123~slide rather then go for 1,1,b12~clone or any clone cancel just because you cannot predict if it whiffs or not (and even DJT whiffed on occasion when he could afford trying it). You can take a risk if you have nice life lead and against characters who will not be able to punish it too badly. But there you have it - any cancel into GM sub main tool is risky and nobody gonna use such character for competitive game play. It's not gonna get fixed, because it would take messing with hitboxes, that are effected by breathing. Plus klone disappears on block and traps not. Plus Pred's bf4 is insane. Go figure.

 

[Tom Brady]

Its posts like this that make people cry for buffs in the 1st place. Now all the subs who don't switch to predator (because he's apparently a better version) are gonna feel entitled to buffs to make their character as good as predator since their gameplan is the "same".

Its an endless cycle.

No, i think they just want the ex clone to work lol. and ex clone should also prob retain the pre patch stay on block. Players (mainly the ones new to MK at high level) dont seem to understand that Clone staying on block never was and never will be "broken" ever in MK history, especially if it now will end up requiring a bar of meter to do so. However.. I wouldn't hold my breath for any change/fix. If it were any other character, a fix would come. But if ANYTHING gets changed for the positive on SZ, the community will riot, hence it will not be done.

Predator in Hunter is a better SZ. Rather then continue to piss and moan over SZ for nothing i'll just play Predator.

 

[Wetdoba]

Mine doesn't activate immediately unless he spends meter like clone does, Subzero way more mobile, Iceball goes into full combo on trade with projectiles, EX iceball destroys projectiles for free combo and set up from anywhere on screen, and has a universal anti airing meterless overhead starter...

No these are no the same character. Just because Hunter and Grandmaster both are trap based doesn't make them the same

 

[Colares]

@Sidhaze don't do this I tried to go against pig killing any momentum for Kenshi this is you vs Brady.
Top players are always right.

 

[kabelfritz]

Sub Zero needs to be patched out so no one can use him anymore. people have predator now instead.

 

[Tom Brady]

Mine doesn't activate immediately unless he spends meter like clone does, Subzero way more mobile, Iceball goes into full combo on trade with projectiles, EX iceball destroys projectiles for free combo and set up from anywhere on screen, and has a universal anti airing meterless overhead starter...

No these are no the same character. Just because Hunter and Grandmaster both are trap based doesn't make them the same

Hunter and GM are very similar. How can someone who plays as neither tell people who do how it is?

 

[C88 Zombieekiler]

Obviously. Even Tom is dropping Sub after EVO for Hunter Pred, because Pred is more tournament viable and caters to everyone who liked Sub gameplay style. Hell Pred even has his 242 move (it's 212 for pred). So Sub is now casual players pick only.

Let me tell you this: every klone cancel (every single one, will it be MB klone cancel, or normal clone cancel from b1,2 or b3 in the corner) has a risk of whiffing and there is not even one way to set it consistently. Saw it multiple times on Tom's streams and is most likely the reason behind DJT not using it too often. Just pay attention when you happen to see him play Sub on Yomi streams: he would use F33 for wall carry, low pokes like d3, and would rather end combo in the corner with 123~slide rather then go for 1,1,b12~clone or any clone cancel just because you cannot predict if it whiffs or not (and even DJT whiffed on occasion when he could afford trying it). You can take a risk if you have nice life lead and against characters who will not be able to punish it too badly. But there you have it - any cancel into GM sub main tool is risky and nobody gonna use such character for competitive game play. It's not gonna get fixed, because it would take messing with hitboxes, that are effected by breathing. Plus klone disappears on block and traps not. Plus Pred's db4 is insane. Go figure.

tom will never drop sub he will try to geth im fixed and if he fails he will go on a hiatus until he gets good with pred but he will 2nnd sub or he will quit

 

[Tom Brady]

tom will never drop sub he will try to geth im fixed and if he fails he will go on a hiatus until he gets good with pred but he will 2nnd sub or he will quit

False, i will not 2nd SZ.