Strategy - Sun God The problem with Sun God's charge system

[Qwark28]

I want this to be a discussion about his sun charge system as well as a thread that gathers attention to the perceived problems of Sun God.

I have been picking up exclusively Sun God and have noticed a lot of misunderstood and unsure properties about him, as if the developers didn't know what he should be.

Let's start with the command grab.

The command grab is 14f, a bit slow but not bad.

The whiff recovery is 49, absolutely horrible.

LVL 1 - 7%
LVL 2 - 11%
LVL 3 - 16%

There is an obvious trend here. The game rewards you for accumulating charges, up to 3.

At first, the command throw is almost not worth using, it does absolutely pitiful damage and is the only armoured wakeup he has. It leaves your opponent right next to you.

Moving on, after you land one command grab, you get up to 11%. It's less than a regular throw but at least you can work with this. It leaves the opponent a little further on.

The last stage is 16%, now this does good damage and is a noteworthy reversal that actually feels like a real command grab. On hit, it sends your opponent 3/4 of the screen away.

The rewards are the following for consuming the charges

5% HP
8% HP
12% HP

.20 of a bar
No idea
A bar


It costs meter to turn the charges into life. It is supposed to be only for when you really need it, as evidenced by the terrible scaling and the bar sacrifice. The same applies to meter, but you obviously don't need to spend any to "turn in" your charges, you use this when in need.

Now, there is a problem.

Obviously, you must balance the acquisition and expedition of charges, you gain something for keeping them, gain something for paying to get rid of them.

The problem is that his command grab doesn't do noteworthy damage, why would someone ever stop blocking when the threat is a 40% combo and the maximum punishment is 7 and 11% at the start, respectively? Who cares if you land a command grab unless it's lvl 3? Were the rewards worth it, sure, but the reward in the end is a command grab that does the same average damage as every other command grab in the game. And what is your reward for getting stuck with so bad damage on it? Emergency life/meter of a scale such that it can only be put to use in moments of desperation because it is simply not worth doing so anytime else.

So we've established the fundamental problem of those charges, you give up too much for something too situational and small.

There's another problem. Kotal's lvl 3 command grab sends the opponents 3/4 of the screen. Why?

If you want to summon a sun ray, you can end your combos with S4 ~ Ray or several other enders to get a safe beam out which is used to bait your opponent. L3 grab fails to fullfill that purpose and doesn't add that much damage in the case that you'd use it instead, only 3% or so. Any other lvl of command grab leaves them at either a safejumpable distance or otherwise within pressure range anyway. The third one fails to be of use for both safejumps and setups.

This isn't a buff/nerf thread. I want to discuss this with the Sun God community, just spare me the "you just need fundamentals and some good reads" because that same thing can be said for any fighting game character, there is no denying Sun God's conflicting rewards, sacrifices and setups.

 

[kabelfritz]

i fought a sun god kotal 1 time and its annoying to be stuck in that long lvl 3 throw animation. other than that, i thought this command throw connects when canceled into from strings?

 

[FL Rushdown]

Your reward for using the grab shouldn't separate the damage dealt from the potential hp gain, the banked charges hp is also huge. One grab is 7% damage, but it's also a banked 5% hp. One command grab creates the same hp disparity that a normal throw would even at level one. If you land it 3 times and heal once you created a gap of 46% between your opponents and your hp(not counting combo damage done prior to grabs) that's better than most characters can get out of an x ray combo.

That said he's still weaker than war god.

 

[D4G]

i fought a sun god kotal 1 time and its annoying to be stuck in that long lvl 3 throw animation. other than that, i thought this command throw connects when canceled into from strings?

On hit yes, it is comboable. Like most command grabs in this game.

 

[cyke_out]

There is a reason why everyone uses war God.

 

[D4G]

Your reward for using the grab shouldn't separate the damage dealt from the potential hp gain, the banked charges hp is also huge. One grab is 7% damage, but it's also a banked 5% hp. One command grab creates the same hp disparity that a normal throw would even at level one. If you land it 3 times and heal once you created a gap of 46% between your opponents and your hp(not counting combo damage done prior to grabs) that's better than most characters can get out of an x ray combo.

That said he's still weaker than war god.

That said, you think it's worth spending a bar of meter for 5% health regen? C'mon now, lets be serious.

 

[Qwark28]

Your reward for using the grab shouldn't separate the damage dealt from the potential hp gain, the banked charges hp is also huge. One grab is 7% damage, but it's also a banked 5% hp. One command grab creates the same hp disparity that a normal throw would even at level one. If you land it 3 times and heal once you created a gap of 46% between your opponents and your hp(not counting combo damage done prior to grabs) that's better than most characters can get out of an x ray combo.

That said he's still weaker than war god.

Except you need a bar of meter to cash in that HP and it's 5% only for the first throw.

Command grabs don't work like that. You need incentive not to get hit by them and frankly, 7% is pitiful, 11% is just a normal throw and 16% is something to worry about.

Any other grappler does the same HP difference you mentioned without needing bar to do so or sacrificing pressure threat.

 

[kabelfritz]

On hit yes, it is comboable. Like most command grabs in this game.

kano would like to have a word with you. so kotals grab does not connect on block in a string?

 

[Qwark28]

kano would like to have a word with you. so kotals grab does not connect on block in a string?

He has tick throws.

 

[RYX]

I feel like NRS wanted to be careful with Sun God because of the potential it had. On paper, a command grab that stacks/charges up to heal you or give you up to half your meter back is pretty strong, so they tuned it back to be weaker on the first grab and scale up to par with others by level 3.

I can kind of understand where they're coming from because a guy who already has a healing move gaining an instant burst of health back could be potentially too strong, so they put some obvious windows of punishment in there as well (the bad recovery), but they might have gone too far on the first or first two levels.

I'd be okay with the throw sending them full screen if Kotal as a character had any means of capitalizing on that. At the very least he should be able to direct it in the case of EX air grab combos sending them away from the corner he wants to push them in.

On the other hand, there's not much reason to risk letting go of block with the threat of eating his high damage combo -- which means he can stack his throw relatively easily, at least the first two times, which by then he'll have the threat of 16% in a throw or over 40% if he opens you up early for a combo. So it.. sort of balances out provided you can consistently land your grabs.

 

[D4G]

Except you need a bar of meter to cash in that HP and it's 5% only for the first throw.

Command grabs don't work like that. You need incentive not to get hit by them and frankly, 7% is pitiful, 11% is just a normal throw and 16% is something to worry about.

Any other grappler does the same HP difference you mentioned without needing bar to do so or sacrificing pressure threat.

If you gained HP back for every successful command throw I'd be happy with having to charge it up, I'd even accept the loss of positioning at level 3. Whether that would be OP or not, I don't know.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Can't you also get meter for it? Which also gives you more damage and creates a larger gap?

 

[kabelfritz]

He has tick throws.

so a 16% throw that can connents on hit and block from a cancel? thats pretty good, other command throws have more downsides.

 

[ColdSpine]

kano would like to have a word with you. so kotals grab does not connect on block in a string?

it does connect from the following (only on block):

d1
b1
f1
d4



not sure about d4 but i always annoy my opponent with these

 

[Qwark28]

it does connect from the following (only on block):

d1
b1
f1
d4



not sure about d4 but i always annoy my opponent with these

D1
D3
D4
F1
1

There's also another but I don't remember.

 

[FL Rushdown]

And you're saying people have no reason to respect it in a block string, doesn't that mean it's just free damage? If they're going to eat it every time why is that bad for you? I just don't understand that line of reasoning.

 

[RYX]

so a 16% throw that can connents on hit and block from a cancel? thats pretty good, other command throws have more downsides.

it only connects on hit when the opponent is airborne

everything else only connects if it's a tick throw

 

[D4G]

Can't you also get meter for it? Which also gives you more damage and creates a larger gap?

To be honest, gaining meter is so insanely fast in this game I would rather keep the charges. The meter gain you get from the charges also doesn't guarantee you'd get any extra damage, especially since you're giving up 14% of damage from you're next two command grabs. The best use I could see it's use for is to gain enough meter to have a combo breaker stocked in a close match.

 

[FL Rushdown]

How many matches have you lost when another bar of meter would've given you a chance(through wakeup armor or an extra breaker). I'll admit it's not ALWAYS good, but having two breakers(with 3 bars and his lvl 3) isn't bad in a round 3 scenario.

 

[Qwark28]

And you're saying people have no reason to respect it in a block string, doesn't that mean it's just free damage? If they're going to eat it every time why is that bad for you? I just don't understand that line of reasoning.

They're not going to eat it all the time. It's never guaranteed.

It is always a mixup in their favor, you're risking a heavy punish in order to do 7%. The reward for reading is always in your opp's favor

Almost worthless does not mean free, it just means it's not that great of an incentive to get people to unblock like grapplers are supposed to be.

 

[FL Rushdown]

They're not going to eat it all the time. It's never guaranteed.

It is always a mixup in their favor, you're risking a heavy punish in order to do 7%. The reward for reading is always in your opp's favor

Almost worthless does not mean free, it just means it's not that great of an incentive to get people to unblock like grapplers are supposed to be.

Well if they're not respecting it at all it should land. It's unblockable unless they're thinking about it and working against it(isn't it? I admit I might be wrong about kotal mechanics).

 

[Qwark28]

Well if they're not respecting it at all it should land. It's in lockable unless they're thinking about it and working against it(isn't it? I admit I might be wrong about kotal mechanics).

Let me rephrase

They unblock - Typical conversion into ~30%
They block - safe

They unblock vs command grab - Full combo
They eat command grab - 7%

The point is YOU must make 2 reads before your command grab musters the respect a grappler's should ALWAYS have, and the reward mechanic for the charges is equally shitty.

 

[FL Rushdown]

Again though. Why would they unblock if they don't respect it. It's literally the same risk reward for them as it is for you, and if they'd rather eat the throw instead of risking a 30% combo it becomes a lot harder for them to justify trying to punish it.

There are 4 possible outcomes. 2 are advantageous to you, one is neutral, the other is bad for you. That's GREAT.

 

[Qwark28]

Again though. Why would they unblock if they don't respect it. It's literally the same risk reward for them as it is for you, and if they'd rather eat the throw instead of risking a 30% combo it becomes a lot harder for them to justify trying to punish it.

There are 4 possible outcomes. 2 are advantageous to you, one is neutral, the other is bad for you. That's GREAT.

I don't know how to make it clearer that you eat a huge combo when you go for a 7% grab if you guess wrong.

And they eat 7% if they guess wrong.

Grapplers are based around their command grab, they use it to open you up and make you do stupid shit. Them eating 7% doesn't discourage them, them eating 11% is half decent but not that great of damage and them eating 16% means that they are fullscreen.

Grapplers are supposed to have an advantage up close and Kotal has hard reads with varying degrees of reward which you must build up to based on a flawed system. Now imagine against Kitana, Shinnok, Quan etc.

And there's always the option of backdash, jump, armour etc.

The point of the thread is to discuss how flawed the sun charge system is.

 

[RYX]

i think sun god would be better off as a grappler if he didn't have so many other abilities taking up his kit

overall Kotal feels heavily adjusted based on the inclusion of stuff like Sun Ray and Blood Offering that even though these abilities are subpar he's been toned down a fair amount for it, not to mention his scorch with the meter gain/health advantage (with the latter being somewhat disappointing at only 12%)

it'd be really easy to make him too good considering all the levers for balance he has right now, but i think a start would be reassessing his risk reward and possibly upping his grab's damage to make it more respectable.

It's also important to consider that even without levels in Choke he'll still outperform in raw combo damage compared to other grapplers. Kotal can go over 40% relatively easily as he gains charges, where people like Goro and Kano have a little more trouble. I think they made up for that by making the grab side of the equation a little less rewarding (at first) and then allowing him to sit on par with the other grabs.