Question - Ancestral What is Ancestral lacking?

[RM NoBrows]

This thread is for ancestral players to gather there thoughts on what they think kung jin's ancestral variation is missing for him to be viable in this game.

My personal opinion, I think the only thing that he's lacking is stun arrow having no timer on it. From my experience, his whole gameplan in this variation revolves around stun arrow. This is how he gets going. Without stun arrow loaded, he doesn't have that many options for damage. In bojitsu and shaolin, other than needing meter, he has the tools necessary to get damage (mb bo swat, bo swing, mb chakram which leads into njp/divekick). I feel that if there was no timer on stun arrow, this variation would be much more viable and I don't think it would make ancestral overpowered.

@STB CoRzz
@buyacushun
@GGA pimpimjim
@HanSolo
@Youphemism
@Envythis
@Poser Paul
@ancestral players

 

[TackyHaddock]

This thread is for ancestral players to gather there thoughts on what they think kung jin's ancestral variation is missing for him to be viable in this game.

My personal opinion, I think the only thing that he's lacking is stun arrow having no timer on it. From my experience, his whole gameplan in this variation revolves around stun arrow. This is how he gets going. Without stun arrow loaded, he doesn't have that many options for damage. In bojitsu and shaolin, other than needing meter, he has the tools necessary to get damage (mb bo swat, bo swing, mb chakram which leads into njp/divekick). I feel that if there was no timer on stun arrow, this variation would be much more viable and I don't think it would make ancestral overpowered.

@STB CoRzz
@buyacushun
@GGA pimpimjim
@HanSolo
@Youphemism
@Envythis
@Poser Paul
@ancestral players

That's the main thing he needs for sure. I was very surprised they didn't give him that last patch.

 

[Harlequin969]

I think it would be better but the problem isn't just stun arrow. The moves they gave this variation all lead to a more zoning play style (All variation specific moves are various angles to shoot the arrow). If stun arrow didn't have a timer he'd be more or less variationless Kung Jin with a stun arrow. Still very little damage that requires setting up.

Now if that was the direction they wanted to go (zoning that is) that's fine BUT as a zoner he feels lackluster as well because he now needs his fire arrow buff to do any sort of meaningful zoning and that also has a timer. So the main question that should be answered is what is Ancestral Kung Jin's gameplan meant to be? Once that's answered he needs to be heavily cattered toward that so as to not get over shadowed by his other two variations as heavily as he already is.

 

[Asodimazze]

Yeah, I totally agree.
If stun arrow didn't have a timer he would be very competitive

 

[Prinz]

Players.

 

[skater11]

This is a hard one to answer. but anyways, here it goes. One of my only requests would be to make some of his block strings with enough cancel frames to where it puts KJ at plus frames after any arrow enhancement. At least +5 so that he has time to jump, poke and whatnot. I realize they can't really mess with cancel frames on certain block strings due to his other variations but they could give him a variation specific string or 2.

No timer on stun arrow, or a limit of 2 arrow specials(double the timer) would be nice too.

 

[EMPEROR PRYCE]

I think it would be better but the problem isn't just stun arrow. The moves they gave this variation all lead to a more zoning play style (All variation specific moves are various angles to shoot the arrow). If stun arrow didn't have a timer he'd be more or less variationless Kung Jin with a stun arrow. Still very little damage that requires setting up.

Now if that was the direction they wanted to go (zoning that is) that's fine BUT as a zoner he feels lackluster as well because he now needs his fire arrow buff to do any sort of meaningful zoning and that also has a timer. So the main question that should be answered is what is Ancestral Kung Jin's gameplan meant to be? Once that's answered he needs to be heavily cattered toward that so as to not get over shadowed by his other two variations as heavily as he already is.

Very little damage? Ancestral gets 36% meterless off of overhead or low, over 40% with 343 starter.

I think this variation is all about stun arrow and setting up around the arrow. As well as counter zoning (instant air db2 and dd2 low profiles) to force trades.

He has the tools I believe, I just think his toolset is harder to see success with.

 

[Youphemism]

Stun arrow not having a timer is an important one, but I also think right now his zoning tools aren't that great and his arrow loads in blockstrings are pretty risky. For a zoning variation the recovery on his arrows is kinda lacklustre. If they made them a LITTLE faster in recovery I think we'd see more of Ancestral. His meter drain arrows are great, his fire arrows are good for both chip and combo damage and stun arrow is great for counter zoning and of course for conversions so it's not the arrows themselves that are lacking but the recovery. Other zoners just have a better time most of the time (unless you have stun loaded, I guess I personally just prefer to meter drain or fire to knock them down and stop them zoning). As for his reload if they made it ever so slightly faster (5-10 frames max) then it'd make his arrow management game a bit less in the opponents favour since he'd have more safe reloads (probably not even most of them) and it might be able to compete with Shaolin and Bojutsu. It just happens to be his most resource management-heavy variation so it has a harder time getting the win.

 

[buyacushun]

Idk too much about ancestral but I'd like to see him to be better able to safely load an arrow on block with some strings (change cancel adv, arrow load frames, whatever) and take the timer off his arrows and give him an ammo count. Or give him the ability to "reload" the same arrow type to refresh the timer. Or even better yet give him a new reload move that allows for better cancels and refreshes the ammo timer.

The bit of training mode time I have makes me think if MoS Raiden. Ancestral feels like kung jin (a good character), but the variation specific stuff is lacking in certain aspects allowing players to actually use the variation.

 

[THTB]

I'm not an Ancestral player by any means. Reading some of his issues from you guys, maybe this could be ideal.

-Double all quiver timers and remove autoblock when loading
-Reduce recovery on arrows when loaded by 5 frames
-Fire quiver now adds blowback property on block

 

[RM NoBrows]

I'm not an Ancestral player by any means. Reading some of his issues from you guys, maybe this could be ideal.

-Double all quiver timers and remove autoblock when loading
-Reduce recovery on arrows when loaded by 5 frames
-Fire quiver now adds blowback property on block

I like your thinking

 

[THTB]

I like your thinking

Lol I try.

The idea behind the autoblock change was so that he didn't have to always have stun arrow loaded for damage. Maybe insert some damage scaling to make sure things don't go too nuts, probably, but generally it gives him damage that he can convert from at more times.

The arrow recovery change in tandem with the fire change and longer load duration gives him a stronger zoning game overall, since he zones better for longer periods. I figured NRS wouldn't sway from the timer, so extending it was the next logical choice.

 

[Harlequin969]

Very little damage? Ancestral gets 36% meterless off of overhead or low, over 40% with 343 starter.

I think this variation is all about stun arrow and setting up around the arrow. As well as counter zoning (instant air db2 and dd2 low profiles) to force trades.

He has the tools I believe, I just think his toolset is harder to see success with.

I've neer seen these meterless combos. So if that's true then by all means I'd love to see it and learn it. I wanted the ressurection of the 'Green Arrow' character.

Edit: Alright I've seen the thread. I'll take back my thoughts that Ancestral lacks damage. However I won't take back that they've pushed the zoning aspect moveset a little too hard imo.

 

[skater11]

-Double all quiver timers and remove autoblock when loading

Wait what does this mean exactly? I get the double timer but the other thing. I hate to ask but Could you clarify some more?(I'm dumb)

 

[THTB]

Wait what does this mean exactly? I get the double timer but the other thing. I hate to ask but Could you clarify some more?(I'm dumb)

Most moves that don't knockdown have a special flag code that prevents any other hits from landing after it has connected, called autoblock in the patch notes. The moves that don't have this are able to have the next attack land as part of the combo, like a traditional link combo. So for instance, if this buff is applied, Kung Jin could do something like, for example, 221xx arrow load, NJP, and it will all combo.

 

[Xev]

Most moves that don't knockdown have a special flag code that prevents any other hits from landing after it has connected, called autoblock in the patch notes. The moves that don't have this are able to have the next attack land as part of the combo, like a traditional link combo. So for instance, if this buff is applied, Kung Jin could do something like, for example, 221xx arrow load, NJP, and it will all combo.

Man if he could do that combo you listed that would be sick. I honestly was just hoping for the removal of the timer on his arrows, it's just awful. I was really sad to not see any Ancestral notes in the patch

 

[THTB]

Man if he could do that combo you listed that would be sick. I honestly was just hoping for the removal of the timer on his arrows, it's just awful. I was really sad to not see any Ancestral notes in the patch

I think the timer idea is cool, since it gives him unlimited usage for the active period. But from what I understand, it's way too short, though.

 

[Suave]

This would probably make him OD but I think it'd be tight if they made it to where you could cancel his arrows. Like if you could go to shoot an arrow and cancel into a poke, grab, or start a combo string. I agree with the no timer on the stun arrow though

 

[RM NoBrows]

I think the timer idea is cool, since it gives him unlimited usage for the active period. But from what I understand, it's way too short, though.

Wayyyyyyyyy too short

 

[buyacushun]

I think the timer idea is cool, since it gives him unlimited usage for the active period. But from what I understand, it's way too short, though.

If they made the timer longer, gave him a way to "reload" or "refresh" the timer and better cancels I think he'd be actually fun. At least to me right now he is lacking fun.

Idk how I feel about allowing cancel combos. It would be nice to not need stun but then I feel like that messes with the purpose of stun and starts to generalize ancestral.

 

[Youphemism]

I'm not an Ancestral player by any means. Reading some of his issues from you guys, maybe this could be ideal.

-Double all quiver timers and remove autoblock when loading
-Reduce recovery on arrows when loaded by 5 frames
-Fire quiver now adds blowback property on block

Double all quiver timers?
Reduce the recovery of the arrow shots themselves or the reloads? Because if it's the reloads then removing autoblock becomes redundant lol.
Blowback? If you mean extended blockstun or increased block pushback then I don't know if that'd really be worth it because you're still -12. If it's not that ignore me

 

[ForeverKing]

If they intend to make him zoner (which very much looks so) then they need to buff his zoning alot. It would be awesome if Ancestral was a really good zoner, so you could have Bojitsu as the rushdown and Shaolin as the in between.

I would say make his recovery way faster on low arrow and air arrows, make the fire arrows take out more chip and push opponents back, and make the timer unlimited once be has arrows out.

Maybe make purple arrows drain slightly more meter, as they are now you would just always want to use fire/stun arrows.

 

[Youphemism]

If they intend to make him zoner (which very much looks so) then they need to buff his zoning alot. It would be awesome if Ancestral was a really good zoner, so you could have Bojitsu as the rushdown and Shaolin as the in between.

I would say make his recovery way faster on low arrow and air arrows, make the fire arrows take out more chip and push opponents back, and make the timer unlimited once be has arrows out.

Maybe make purple arrows drain slightly more meter, as they are now you would just always want to use fire/stun arrows.

Uh I disagree, vampirics drain a decent amount of meter as is and you can get three in one combo in the corner so if you increased the drain they could be getting into insane territory. I actually use meter drain right now more than stun or fire arrows lol, at least from full screen. Then once I've bugged them enough to make them come in I equip stun or if it's nearer the end then I equip fire arrows and hit them with as many as possible anywhere on the screen.

 

[GLoRToR]

Originality, style. Like the entire character. lol

 

[skater11]

Idk man I'm confused reading all these posts now. Stun arrow definitely needs change though. Loading an arrow just to have to block my opponent that does a slow string into special that jails then it's my turn and BOOM!, arrow gone. It's that ridiculous.

Another suggestion: say stun arrow lasts 10 seconds, and I do kungjins b214 which takes about 2-3seconds for the string to end. If my arrow enhancement is on the 9th second with only 1 more second to go until it vanishes, it won't, if I buffer b214 into arrow.

Countless of times have I hit confirmed a string while equipping a stun arrow just to hit my opponent with a regular arrow because of the timer. #KuffBung-jin