General/Other - Dragons Fire Proposed Dragon Fire Changes.

[Derptile]

At this point I have to make this thread because I'm seeing a bunch of people pretending they've played against Liu Kang at the highest level and that his stuff must be nerfed. I don't want other variations like Dualist or Flame fist getting rekt for no reason so here we go.

-Reduce frame advantage from F213 FBDC by 3(or 4) frames(It goes from being +4 to +1(or 0) and is no longer a "Pseudo-block infinite")

-Reduce frame advantage of F44 FBRC and B12 FBRC by 3 or 4 (5 if you really felt like it) Frames on block(not on hit, otherwise he wouldn't be able to link F44 FBRC F44)

And if you really wanted to

-Reduce frame advantage of Flying Kick MB from +2 to +1 or 0(If you reaaaaally wanted to).

THAT'S ALL THAT SHOULD HAPPEN. Change anything else about him and his other variations are fucked.

@UsedForGlue
@Tom Brady
@FOREVER EL1TE
@Phosferrax
@AssassiN
@Rude
@Sage Leviathan
@A F0xy Grampa
@STRYKIE

 

[Rude]

I don't think i was calling for Liu nerfs. Was i? I can't remember.

Here is an idea, and it's just a thought, but what if he only gets all the + frames off run canceling, but not dash canceling?

Too much?

 

[MrSunshine]

 

[Derptile]

I don't think i was calling for Liu nerfs. Was i? I can't remember.

Here is an idea, and it's just a thought, but what if he only gets all the + frames off run canceling, but not dash canceling?

Too much?

You weren't calling for them, but I know you're a Quan Cheese player so you might have something to say. Also if he didn't get plus frames on Dash canceling then what would be the point? This way every character can easily get out midscreen, and it has some use for in the corner if you feel like checking them with the dash cancel instead of run canceling.

 

[Peckapowa]

You weren't calling for them, but I know you're a Quan Cheese player so you might have something to say. Also if he didn't get plus frames on Dash canceling then what would be the point? This way every character can easily get out midscreen, and it has some use for in the corner if you feel like checking them with the dash cancel instead of run canceling.

I think the cancels generally were meant for run cancelling out in pressure situations. don't forget it's a fireball that can be cancelled as a zoning tool. It's also hard to decipher between a dash and run cancel so you could play that guessing game to maintain stamina and presume they respect you. Also run cancels are mroe difficult to react to coming out of different strings at different points in them. Doing 1 string over and over kind of overly simplifies the game and dulls down the competitive play and we don't need any more of that with all the 50/50s being done over and over. Also the opponent being able to poke isn't so bad, because liu has an amazing toolkit for counter-poking.

 

[Derptile]

I think the cancels generally were meant for run cancelling out in pressure situations. don't forget it's a fireball that can be cancelled as a zoning tool. It's also hard to decipher between a dash and run cancel so you could play that guessing game to maintain stamina and presume they respect you. Also run cancels are mroe difficult to react to coming out of different strings at different points in them. Doing 1 string over and over kind of overly simplifies the game and dulls down the competitive play and we don't need any more of that with all the 50/50s being done over and over. Also the opponent being able to poke isn't so bad, because liu has an amazing toolkit for counter-poking.

At maximum, he can do F213 FBRC twice and end up with F213 FBRC at +4, he doesn't have a true 50/50 so there's no harm in him having that. He really doesn't have any good advancing normals so he always has to spend some Stamina to get in which minimizes his FBRC opportunies, or he can spend a bar to do flying kick MB and be at +2 which is nice, but midscreen you can always backdash and get check him with a poke. Also I can't agree with the dash and run cancels looking similar, there's a huge difference in the animation.

 

[Phosferrax]

He should absolutely not be able to dash cancel f213 and still be significantly plus. This looped in the corner against a meterless opponent is absolute bullshit. f44 should not completely jail either so I agree with you're changed.

I would make the flying kick a high instead so he can't just throw it out whenever he likes at neutral for practically no risk, and imo it recovers laughable fast.

 

[Zyphox]

Kang nerfs yet this variation has never made top 16 at a US major if I recall, not saying that matters but NRS seems to always nerf characters that look OP in tournament lol

 

[STRYKIE]

Flame Fist shouldn't be affected as long as they give him the recovery of old meterless Shaolin Flame to the EX version, like they said they would in the last patch...

The thing with cancel frames in this game is that they do double duty for things on both block on hit, doesn't seem like they would only be able to target one or the other.

So with that said...

Increase the cancel window on the fireball cancel by 3 frames. For all key strings it's still more than enough to get a 113 conversion in on hit. I don't think anyone is gonna lose sleep over not being able to do something like standing 2 FBRC~F3 on hit anymore.

Anything that it currently at least +10, reduce by 3 frames.

I would say reduce the cancel on B12 by 3 frames but then Dualist loses the ability to convert from it after Metamorphosis. Perhaps reduce the latter's recovery to 20 frames down from 24? It's not like that would break Dualist.

F213 I'm not really sure about, we would have to know what exactly is causing it to induce so much blockstun. I remember when Scorpion's 214 was nerfed, the patch notes said something along the lines of "no longer resets the blockstun when special cancelled", maybe it's the same deal and the actual cancel advantage would't have to take a huge hit.

 

[juicepouch]

#buffgoro

#nerfeveryoneelse

#gorodeservestoptier

 

[Ryncage]

At this point I have to make this thread because I'm seeing a bunch of people pretending they've played against Liu Kang at the highest level and that his stuff must be nerfed. I don't want other variations like Dualist or Flame fist getting rekt for no reason so here we go.

-Reduce frame advantage from F213 FBDC by 3 frames(It goes from being +4 to +1 and is no longer a "Pseudo-block infinite")

-Reduce frame advantage of F44 FBRC and B12 FBRC by 3 or 4 Frames on block(not on hit, otherwise he wouldn't be able to land combos anymore)

And if you really wanted to

-Reduce frame advantage of Flying Kick MB from +2 to +1.

THAT'S ALL THAT SHOULD HAPPEN. Change anything else about him and his other variations are fucked.

@UsedForGlue
@Tom Brady
@FOREVER EL1TE
@Phosferrax
@AssassiN
@Rude
@Sage Leviathan
@A F0xy Grampa
@STRYKIE

Yee old "if you arent a 5 star cher you can't critique the food."
If you see that string and think "thats perfectly fine" then you're beyond help.

More to the point, agree with your suggestions, and also cant say it enough: this is the only variation that needs a tweak. Anything that impacts the other two varieties in a negative way is serious overkill to a pretty balanced character.

 

[AssassiN]

Agreed with these proposed changes.
Could people also stop using tournament placings as a way to determine if a character/variation is good?

 

[Derptile]

Flame Fist shouldn't be affected as long as they give him the recovery of old meterless Shaolin Flame to the EX version, like they said they would in the last patch...

The thing with cancel frames in this game is that they do double duty for things on both block on hit, doesn't seem like they would only be able to target one or the other.

So with that said...

Increase the cancel window on the fireball cancel by 3 frames. For all key strings it's still more than enough to get a 113 conversion in on hit. I don't think anyone is gonna lose sleep over not being able to do something like standing 2 FBRC~F3 on hit anymore.

Anything that it currently at least +10, reduce by 3 frames.

I would say reduce the cancel on B12 by 3 frames but then Dualist loses the ability to convert from it after Metamorphosis. Perhaps reduce the latter's recovery to 20 frames down from 24? It's not like that would break Dualist.

F213 I'm not really sure about, we would have to know what exactly is causing it to induce so much blockstun. I remember when Scorpion's 214 was nerfed, the patch notes said something along the lines of "no longer resets the blockstun when special cancelled", maybe it's the same deal and the actual cancel advantage would't have to take a huge hit.

As long as F44 FBRC F44 links then it's fine. Also the only other FBRC string that's +10 is 112 and since it doesn't jail and hits high twice I don't see why it should be changed.

Also @Phosferrax making Flying Kick a High would be rough. I do agree that doing flying kick MB in neutral is crazy, but it would also hurt his already poor defense(which everyone seems to forget). I'd make it have much for recovery frames instead so that if you manage to get it to whiff then running in to punish would be a way to deal with it.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

I think this would make sense

Make Ex biciycle kick/flying kick neutral.
Make his D3 -1, so it's effectively like Cages D4, a move should be able to low profile AND be plus on block IMO.
Make his FBRC game more like Scorpions, so there's actually options involved.

At the very least that D3 has to change and he needs at least 1 gap in his offense where the answer isnt 'just armour'

 

[STRYKIE]

As long as F44 FBRC F44 links then it's fine. Also the only other FBRC string that's +10 is 112 and since it doesn't jail and hits high twice I don't see why it should be changed.

For all we know NRS might finally fix the bucket ass hitbox on 112 to make contact with crouching hitboxes like most character's high jabs do. Even with the FBC nerf there would still be enough advantage to do the same loop for slightly less chip lol.

Btw, B34 (both hits of the 4) and 44 are currently both over +10 too.

 

[Derptile]

I think this would make sense

Make Ex biciycle kick/flying kick neutral.
Make his D3 -1, so it's effectively like Cages D4, a move should be able to low profile AND be plus on block IMO.
Make his FBRC game more like Scorpions, so there's actually options involved.

At the very least that D3 has to change and he needs at least 1 gap in his offense where the answer isnt 'just armour'

His d3 is 12 frames and doesn't have good range, neither does his awful D4 and D1 it would also hurt all variations of Liu Kang as well. I don't think Paulo would have put it in the game unless he was sure that it was fine, making Flying Kick MB neutral would be fine though. Also no his FBRC shouldn't be like Scorpion, I still feel that Hellfire was nerfed prematurely and incorrectly(if we're talking about 214 FBRC), if D'vorah can have her pressure and 50/50 game the way it is then I don't see why Liu can't have his pure pressure game.

@STRYKIE We already know NRS doesn't care about hitboxes so that's never going to happen, and how can someone manage to get hit from a B34 or 44? They should just off themselves on the spot.

 

[AssassiN]

His d3 is 12 frames and doesn't have good range, neither does his awful D4 and D1 it would also hurt all variations of Liu Kang as well. I don't think Paulo would have put it in the game unless he was sure that it was fine, making Flying Kick MB neutral would be fine though. Also no his FBRC shouldn't be like Scorpion, I still feel that Hellfire was nerfed prematurely and incorrectly(if we're talking about 214 FBRC), if D'vorah can have her pressure and 50/50 game the way it is then I don't see why Liu can't have his pure pressure game.

@STRYKIE We already know NRS doesn't care about hitboxes so that's never going to happen, and how can someone manage to get hit from a B34 or 44? They should just off themselves on the spot.

Liu's D1 has decent range, I agree that his D3 and D4 don't have that much range though.
D3 is just really good to low profile attacks. B1 or D1 should be used more than D3.

Flying Kick MB should probably be neutral on block. But I wouldn't destroy his FBRC cancels, it's all he pretty much has in DF for pressure.
Just less cancel advantage on F213, MAYBE his F44 and B12.

@STRYKIE There is no reason to use B34 or 44 when Liu has F213.

While we are talking about nerfs, let's not forget about fixes.

- Liu has an input bug with B1, the amount of times I get B1~Flying Kick instead of B12 is so annoying.
- The second hit of F4 tends to whiff on hit at max range
- 1/11/111 whiff on crouch block on the majority of the cast, even though only the first 1 is a high.

 

[Derptile]

Liu's D1 has decent range, I agree that his D3 and D4 don't have that much range though.
D3 is just really good to low profile attacks. B1 or D1 should be used more than D3.

Flying Kick MB should probably be neutral on block. But I wouldn't destroy his FBRC cancels, it's all he pretty much has in DF for pressure.
Just less cancel advantage on F213, MAYBE his F44 and B12.

@STRYKIE There is no reason to use B34 or 44 when Liu has F213.

While we are talking about nerfs, let's not forget about fixes.

- Liu has an input bug with B1, the amount of times I get B1~Flying Kick instead of B12 is so annoying.
- The second hit of F4 tends to whiff on hit at max range
- 1/11/111 whiff on crouch block on the majority of the cast, even though only the first 1 is a high.

B12 dragon kick is fine you just need to get used to it, it's no where near as bad as B12 windmill punches.

And let's be serious here, Liu(DF) will be seeing no fixes or buffs for the rest of this games life. It only gonna be nerfs from now on so all you can do is hope that it's not too bad.

 

[AssassiN]

B12 dragon kick is fine you just need to get used to it, it's no where near as bad as B12 windmill punches.

And let's be serious here, Liu(DF) will be seeing no fixes or buffs for the rest of this games life. It only gonna be nerfs from now on so all you can do is hope that it's not too bad.

I know you can delay the input of the special to avoid B1~Flying Kick. But sometimes I input it faster, doesn't mean I should be punished for it...
Happens more when I go for Bicycle kick like you said.

 

[STRYKIE]

His d3 is 12 frames and doesn't have good range, neither does his awful D4 and D1 it would also hurt all variations of Liu Kang as well. I don't think Paulo would have put it in the game unless he was sure that it was fine, making Flying Kick MB neutral would be fine though. Also no his FBRC shouldn't be like Scorpion, I still feel that Hellfire was nerfed prematurely and incorrectly(if we're talking about 214 FBRC), if D'vorah can have her pressure and 50/50 game the way it is then I don't see why Liu can't have his pure pressure game.

@STRYKIE We already know NRS doesn't care about hitboxes so that's never going to happen, and how can someone manage to get hit from a B34 or 44? They should just off themselves on the spot.

Liu's D1 has decent range, I agree that his D3 and D4 don't have that much range though.
D3 is just really good to low profile attacks. B1 or D1 should be used more than D3.

Flying Kick MB should probably be neutral on block. But I wouldn't destroy his FBRC cancels, it's all he pretty much has in DF for pressure.
Just less cancel advantage on F213, MAYBE his F44 and B12.

@STRYKIE There is no reason to use B34 or 44 when Liu has F213.

While we are talking about nerfs, let's not forget about fixes.

- Liu has an input bug with B1, the amount of times I get B1~Flying Kick instead of B12 is so annoying.
- The second hit of F4 tends to whiff on hit at max range
- 1/11/111 whiff on crouch block on the majority of the cast, even though only the first 1 is a high.

Someone could follow up with a B34 or 44 after a Bicycle Kick, it's just currently not necessary. Scorpion's standing 4 FBRC was around +15 on block and was equally redundant compared to 214 but NRS still pulled the trigger on it.

I'm also aware of the hitbox issues and been campaigning to get them fixed for over 2 months lol. I haven't given up on that.

Assassin, just so you know the proposal is that most FBRC strings will still be plus on block, just not enough to jail loopable strings. Nobody is saying to get rid of them entirely.

 

[Wrubez]

At this point I have to make this thread because I'm seeing a bunch of people pretending they've played against Liu Kang at the highest level and that his stuff must be nerfed. I don't want other variations like Dualist or Flame fist getting rekt for no reason so here we go.

-Reduce frame advantage from F213 FBDC by 3 frames(It goes from being +4 to +1 and is no longer a "Pseudo-block infinite")

-Reduce frame advantage of F44 FBRC and B12 FBRC by 3 or 4 Frames on block(not on hit, otherwise he wouldn't be able to land combos anymore)

And if you really wanted to

-Reduce frame advantage of Flying Kick MB from +2 to +1.

THAT'S ALL THAT SHOULD HAPPEN. Change anything else about him and his other variations are fucked.

@UsedForGlue
@Tom Brady
@FOREVER EL1TE
@Phosferrax
@AssassiN
@Rude
@Sage Leviathan
@A F0xy Grampa
@STRYKIE

100% agree with these changes. I think most can at least agree on a couple of things -

1) DF needs to have FBC pressure otherwise what's the point. If you eliminate the dash cancel's then you eliminate the braindead loops. You'll then only get 2 reps of f213 fbrc before needing to change strings.

2) Any nerfs to Liu need to be handled VERY carefully. This is a character that lives and dies on pressuring his opponent. One overkill nerf and he will basically be catapulted to the bottom. You thought LK's didn't get into majors enough now? He'll become a novelty. A "meh I'll be LK just for shits and giggles" character if not adjusted properly.

Let's face it, NRS hasn't had a great batting average when making the correct adjustments with MKX. For every Kenshi & Katana valid adjustment there are plenty others that you see nothing but complaints about, especially on here.

 

[cR Xarakamaka]

agree with this thread but if u gna fix him with this broken stuff then give me a 7 or 8 frame d1 and ill be happy

 

[Enexemander]

100% agree with these changes. I think most can at least agree on a couple of things -

1) DF needs to have FBC pressure otherwise what's the point. If you eliminate the dash cancel's then you eliminate the braindead loops. You'll then only get 2 reps of f213 fbrc before needing to change strings.

2) Any nerfs to Liu need to be handled VERY carefully. This is a character that lives and dies on pressuring his opponent. One overkill nerf and he will basically be catapulted to the bottom. You thought LK's didn't get into majors enough now? He'll become a novelty. A "meh I'll be LK just for shits and giggles" character if not adjusted properly.

Let's face it, NRS hasn't had a great batting average when making the correct adjustments with MKX. For every Kenshi & Katana valid adjustment there are plenty others that you see nothing but complaints about, especially on here.

Other variations exist besides DF. Nerfing all of them is pretty stupid.

In fact, this entire nerf brigade tangent is stupid. If it's so godlike, it's time to use it in tournament.

You'll quickly find that there's more to the character besides cancel strings, and those things hold Liu back majorly. Comparing the overall offensive ability of Liu to Lao would be enlightening, I think.

 

[Derptile]

100% agree with these changes. I think most can at least agree on a couple of things -

1) DF needs to have FBC pressure otherwise what's the point. If you eliminate the dash cancel's then you eliminate the braindead loops. You'll then only get 2 reps of f213 fbrc before needing to change strings.

2) Any nerfs to Liu need to be handled VERY carefully. This is a character that lives and dies on pressuring his opponent. One overkill nerf and he will basically be catapulted to the bottom. You thought LK's didn't get into majors enough now? He'll become a novelty. A "meh I'll be LK just for shits and giggles" character if not adjusted properly.

Let's face it, NRS hasn't had a great batting average when making the correct adjustments with MKX. For every Kenshi & Katana valid adjustment there are plenty others that you see nothing but complaints about, especially on here.

For the most part NRS has handled nerfs very well. Characters like Cassie, Raiden, kung Jin, Erron Black, Quan Chi, and Dvorah were all nerfed but are all top tier.

But on the ugly side we have characters like Kano, Sub Zero, Fisticuffs, and Scorpion. Scorpion getting nerfed only because of FBRCs does worry me, but I hope NRS will be sensible for LK.

^And no he doesn't need a faster d1 if he's only getting his dumb shit nerfed(In the OP).

 

[Wrubez]

Other variations exist besides DF. Nerfing all of them is pretty stupid.

In fact, this entire nerf brigade tangent is stupid. If it's so godlike, it's time to use it in tournament.

You'll quickly find that there's more to the character besides cancel strings, and those things hold Liu back majorly. Comparing the overall offensive ability of Liu to Lao would be enlightening, I think.

You'll get no argument from me. I'm only speaking to the fact that since there is so much outcry to nerf his run cancels, it's almost bound to happen so I'm suggesting compromises. And when I spoke or nerfs I had all variations in mind that's why I said to be extremely careful.

Hell man if I had it my way I would say don't even touch LK but I can also sympathize with the fact that his DF variation has the ability to create an unfair advantage with his DASH cancels. I'm all for leaving his run cancels untouched if I had it my way. Well aware he has other tools but nothing of the likes of your typical 50/50 characters so pressure is his game.