General/Other - Hat Trick Proposed changes for Hat Trick

[Eddy Wang]

A lot of people plays Tempest and Buzzsaw, and very few play Hat Trick, while the buffs he got made him more bearable, after been playing nothing than hat trick for weeks and grinding as much of MUs i could, i came to notice there are still work to be done in this variation, there was actually a bigger list, but he doesn't need all, the idea is to make the character viable, and fun, not broken, so only 3 changes are needed, the first and the last one are fixes.



1. Hat callback Hitting mid was god send, but there are matches where hat callback should've hit mid, and doesn't matter if some characters are blocking or neutral crouching (sonya, jacqui, etc) the hat goes right over their heads and lao spends meter for nothing when you want that plus, it totally ruins his pressure game in first place, so this needs a fix.
Suggestion: Hat Callback Hitbox should've been slightly increased only in the lower area, it would solve this issue.

2. Above Hat trap, has currently no use since the hat stays right above Lao's head, there are no matchups where above hat has found its use, If that hat was supposed to anti-air characters, that ain't working, first because after setting that up, lao needs to back away to create the perfect tragectory, something he doesn't need to do with forward hat, since the hat will follow him around, there is nothing to bluff with above hat trap either, since he loses a lot, and there is nothing to gain, the above trap is currently one of the top useless moves in the game
Suggestion: Above Hat Trap should have an aditional command upon its execution, that would allow the hat to be placed above but forward (DD2F), and another command to place the hat above but away (DD2B), I still think this is optional, the move is already useless itself there is no actual reason to use it, part of me doesn't care if this move gets buffed or not, considering forward trap anti-airs better than above hat trap.


3. The thing that bugs most of hat tricks, is most of the times you need your hat to stay out on certain traps, only to get destroyed by a poke, setups that took dedicated times to recreate the situation on a real match, only to get hit by a D1 or D3 that will put the hat back in the head.
Suggestion: Hat Trap doesn't go away, unless the opponent hits lao twice while he is standing, Opponent's hit counter is 2hit combo and beyond, a knockdown, or juggle state.

This would make Hat Trick a better trapper, but it would also increase his risk, since getting hit by something for positioning doesn't immediately puts the hat back on his head.

Hat trick Damage situation:

4.Some say his Hat-A-Rang (ex BF2) scales way too much damage, that is true, a 31% combo with 1 bar, while he has a 38% meterless doesn't make sense, yet, the returning hat its not safe, has a gap while the hat is returning, and lao can be punished due its recovery up close.

I for once considering he has hat trap to cancel to, which makes some of his strings safe, i don't think this move needs to be safe or buffed, because it was not meant to be used at blast radius nor as a blockstring, having this move has a blockstring would remove the originality of the variation, as well as hitting mid on return.

Also, Lao is a character that should have deal kabal's damage (No bigger than 35%) outside of tempest considering the options he has across all variations, but that's me.

Giving the option of the opponent's to low profile the hat, it forces them to crouch which while you're running towards makes the hat recover much faster, that they can be hit with b22, or F4 if you don't want to wait, which is an option that would go away that opens up the opponent's far more than making them a sitting duck blocking.

Anyway, it appears not all hatricks have the same opinion about it, so i will give 3 suggestions, in order of one to be picked, let me tell you, we don't need 3. Also i would like to know how non Lao players feel about this.

• Suggestion1: Hat-a-rang now hits mid on his way back, and is also safe on block at blast radius even with the gap ( But no damage buff,)
• Suggestion2: Hat-a-rang is the same at blast radius, but has less scaling on hit, which means damage buff for the risk taken.
• Suggestion3: instead of Buffing hat-a-rang which is totally unnecessary IMO, make 112124~hat trap on hit, able to link F2 for a continued combo, But adds correct scalling on his combos, reducing his 38% meterless a few values below. Trading easy damage for more technical functionality.

I would go with suggestion 3 without blinking.


5. J2 has a phantom hitbox that can hit character from a very distant jump without the hat touching the opponent, and can even hit crouching characters the same way, currently i've been taking advantage of this to punish my opponent's every time in situations i know it would be a safe block for them, not only that, is currently the easiest way to approach in the game, once lao settles the opponen't to respect a certain range.
Suggestion: Fix J2 hitbox to match the hat, i know there is a good number of phantom hitboxes in the game, but that IMO needs to go.

Spoiler: Things i scratched off the list, that i gathered around, don't think Lao needs it with the current suggestions:

• Able to attack airbone after an air hat callback
• Able to hat callback after a teleport
• Second hit of B12 to be overhead
• Faster recovery on away hat trap
• 112124~hat trap to be + on block
• Hat-a-rang to be + on block
• Easier to juggle off Hat callback
• Easier to juggle off low hat callback
• Walkspeed buff

@I GOT HANDS
@Youphemism
@Just2Swift
@The PantyChrist
@FOREVER KING
@A F0xy Grampa
@Big Pampering
@BLOOD CAPTAIN X
@Bird Lao X
@ETC Mcfly
@Every Hat Trick Main

Just one, request, this is a open discussion, be respectable towards everyone, make some sense and be reasonable, no raging calling names, i will respectfully ask @Hollywood DMS @1man3letters and @Tim Static to keep an eye on this to prevent salts.
Also the "Play Tempest" or "Play Buzzsaw" and "Lao already has 2 good variations" quotes have no power here, if you have similar stuff to say please stay out of this thread, since you won't be adding nothing constructive about it.

 

[QUAN-FUSION]

Can't the above hat trap stop crossovers?

And yes, he should be able to put the hat up/forward like raidens orbs.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Ok, I have read this entire post twice over now, so forewarning off the bat guys, first post to summarize common misconceptions of the posters that just skim titles out there.

This is a thread about HAT TRICK Kung Lao, not TEMPEST. Absolutely nothing suggested here would affect Tempest in a positive way, in fact the only suggested change that would affect Tempest, is the J2 suggestions which Eddy is asking to be nerfed. So just pre-emptively, can we avoid the nonsense about Kung Lao being OP as is, how do you struggle to win with a tournament champion, best character in the game already, etc etc, because Hat Trick has absolutely no presence in the tournament scene. He's basically Buzzsaw that trades Low Hats for Hat Traps. There is no harm in tightening him up to make the utility he gets actually work a bit more fluidly.

 

[Eddy Wang]

Can't the above hat trap stop crossovers?

And yes, he should be able to put the hat up/forward like raidens orbs.

Yes it does, but Lao can't spin or throw hats either, so even if he prevents you from jumping and punishing you, he can't launch for a combo, and this hat trap doesn't combo without catching someone in the air.

the second issue is, besides needing 25 recovery frames to set up an AA, you have an 8f anti crossup jab and 7f spins that will do better work instantly on reaction rather than having a hat floating above your head, hoping someone would decide to cross up afterwards.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Ok, now that that's out of the way...


The part about Hat Callback hitting mid consistently is a no brainer. I have the same opinion on this as I do of everything related to these hitbox issues. Just fix em please. Johnny Cage, Kotal, Sub-Zero, Kano, whoever, there should be no dice rolls deciding whether your move whiffs or not in MKX.


As for Above Hat Trap, you are right. It is currently COMPLETELY useless and I'd prefer it was removed from the game in it's current state as all that's ever happened for me is trying to follow up a Hat Trap with a down input too fast accidently gave me this crap. Not a major issue, but still, completely useless and the only time it can come into play is a negative one. As for the proposed changes, this might just be my lack of insight, but I can't really say how having that above trap slightly forward or back will make it any less useless at all.



Now, as far as Hat Traps not going away on hit... I haven't fully formed an opinion on this and I don't like speaking on stuff I haven't fully thought out to the best of my ability... but just softly, my initial impression is that you might be right. Raidens Orbs dont and he sacrifices nothing to put them out, and you are only asking for 1 hat worth of resilience. However, at the very least its super important that the hat doesn't disappear AFTER it's been called back. It's already en route as a projectile, just getting jabbed and having the Hat disappear means you generally have to block all the way until it connects, making converting your successful set-up into successfully executed conclusion for any more than 5% extremely impractical at anything other than a very specific window of range, and even then, very hard on execution, AS WELL as needing to be hitconfirmed otherwise super unsafe spin, as well as the execution changing based on connect range as well.

4.Some say his Hat-A-Rang (ex BF2) scales way too much damage, that is true, a 31% combo with 1 bar, while he has a 38% meterless doesn't make sense, yet, the returning hat its not safe, has a gap while the hat is returning, and lao can be punished due its recovery up close.

I know you disagreed with that sentiment, but just to further extend on this. Hat-a-Rang is NOT designed to be a combo extension tool, and not designed for use on block, as Eddy said, you can already set up a Trap safely on block or call one back. Hat-A-Rang is an ex-Projectile that converts for 29% full screen (31% if pushed to the corner). It's repeating hitbox makes it an excellent tool for covering ground as well, and is extremely hard to respond to as the animation is so similar to forward Hat Trap giving it great opportunities for conditioning into hits. This tool is amazingly strong as it stands, and does NOT need buffs or to hit mid on the way back, that's just redundant and does not build on Hat Trick's current toolset. I voted for option 3 as well.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Can't the above hat trap stop crossovers?

Sure. If you set it up when you are safe, and sit under it while your opponent comes in or recovers and decides to do the one thing he could possibly do to make your telegraphed choice to sacrifice Spin+OH-Launcher+Projectile and for an overhead Hat Trap worthwhile, instead of doing literally ANYTHING else to push you back past it, including even just inputting a run command and blissfully taking his hands of the keypad, then yes, the above Hat Trap could be used to stop a crossover.

However if you didn't put the Hat Trap up to begin with, you could have just used the Spin you threw away instead, which has much better start up frames and hitbox, and launches into full combo. Above Hat Trap is pretty shit at the moment

 

[Eddy Wang]

As for Above Hat Trap, you are right. It is currently COMPLETELY useless and I'd prefer it was removed from the game in it's current state as all that's ever happened for me is trying to follow up a Hat Trap with a down input too fast accidently gave me this crap. Not a major issue, but still, completely useless and the only time it can come into play is a negative one. As for the proposed changes, this might just be my lack of insight, but I can't really say how having that above trap slightly forward or back will make it any less useless at all.

Sometimes you hat trap and they jump on a angle where hat callback doesn't reach, if it was above hat trap since the hat is placed above and slightly forward the diagonal trajectory would AA anyone who jumps into it thinking your tossing a hat or just doing a forward hat trap.

 

[Big Pampering]

I only think he needs 112124 and mid hat trap hitbox fixed. And let the hat return on his head if he blocks an attack from behind so he can punish teleports properly.

Convert off of b22 hat spin should be easier for a B321 follow up.

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

You haven't really addressed the issue of hat trick at all there IMO.
What he needs is at least 1 block string into hat trap that's advantage on block.

Because he has pretty much nothin going for him without a hat on his head, he needs it to stop him being either 5050d or block stringed to death against those that can abuse that sort of opening.

Either that or an armoured hat call back, basically the issue with hat trick is the lack of a threat with no hat.

If the opponent gets hit by any sort of hat trap shenanigans, they fucked up.

Another solution would be to give him a backdash like shinnok when he has no hat on his head.

 

[Big Pampering]

You haven't really addressed the issue of hat trick at all there IMO.
What he needs is at least 1 block string into hat trap that's advantage in block.

Because he has pretty much nothin going for him without a hat on his head, he needs it to stop him being either 5050d or block stringed to death against those that can abuse that sort of opening.

Either that or an armoured hat call back, basically the issue with hat trick is the lack of a threat with no hat.

If the opponent gets hit by any sort of hat trap shenanigans, they fucked up.

Imo it would have to be 112124 hat trap being +3. If you give armor to hat callback, it will change into something similar to the +27 ex hat spin. B22 hat trap being safe against cassie would be nice too, but not really that important.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

B22 Hat Trap isn't safe against Cassie? What happens there?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

B22 Hat Trap isn't safe against Cassie? What happens there?

Flip kick.


B2 hat trap is safe against her though

 

[I GOT HANDS]

Flip kick.


B2 hat trap is safe against her though

But defeats the purpose of opening with B2 to begin with.



Damn. I thought B22 was safe on everybody, I believe I tested it against Reptile and Tempest as well, I guess Cassies punish works better here

 

[llabslb]

The hat should return to Lao if he is knocked down and hit the opponent.

 

[Eddy Wang]

So as long as Lao doesn't have a string into hat Trap that is + on block do you believe he will not be viable?

 

[A F0xy Grampa]

So as long as Lao doesn't have a string into hat Trap that is + on block do you believe he will not be viable?

Well, I think it'd reduce him to having no issues across the cast.

 

[coolwhip]

I'll say that much, I don't buy that hat trick is better than buzz-saw for a second. But I do hope it becomes viable because I've been having fun with it for the past few days.

 

[Youphemism]

1. That's a fix so definitely a priority.

2. I don't really care for the Above Hat Trap either so whatever happens to it if anything doesn't bother me.

3. See I'm not sure about this because it seems useless. If you're going to get hit you're most likely going to get hit by more than one hit and you won't be calling it back as you're getting hit so this won't change anything in my opinion.

4. Hat-a-rang does scale a lot, I don't think that's a contestable point, but the only thing increasing the damage on that will do is make his combos normal. If you think giving it normal scaling would break him you're mental lol. An EX move is supposed to enhance the effect of the move and what it does is make it able to be comboed from but there's no point in doing that because it can scale harder than if you were to just do a meterless combo or a combo into ex spin. How would it remove the originality of the variation?! Technically by cancelling your blockstrings into Hat Traps your pressure becomes more like Tempest, whereas cancelling blockstrings into Hat-a-rang gives you pressure only Hat Trick has. In the same way Tempest can hat spin and Buzz Saw can straight hat, Hat Trick should be able to get that same kind of reward from Hat-a-rang.

It should also have its gap removed/hit mid the same way Kitanas ex fans had that gap removed. That didn't break her and it wouldn't break Hat Trick. Why spend a bar only to get poked or even full combo punished?

Suggestion 1 even though hat would be safe it still doesn't remove the gap nor give you as good a reward as other situations so this doesn't help.
Suggestion 2 still doesn't remove the gap but the scaling gives him better situations on hit so this helps on hit but not on block.
Suggestion 3 would add MORE scaling to Hat Trap even though it gives you better combo potential. You spoke earlier about something else removing the originality of the variation but you're pretty much turning this into Tempest lol.

5. Although I'm not sure this would be a fix rather than a nerf it's still a good idea because ghost hitboxes are annoying.

• Able to attack airbone after an air hat callback - luxury buff really, don't think he needs it
• Able to hat callback after a teleport - again luxury buff
• Second hit of B12 to be overhead - who asked for this? Lmao
• Faster recovery on away hat trap - I don't see what would be bad about that actually
• 112124~hat trap to be + on block - Lol his pressure would contest with Tempest or even arguably be better since he gets plus frames for no meter
• Hat-a-rang to be + on block - You're spending a bar so I guess that's alright, kind of like how ex callback is plus
• Easier to juggle off Hat callback - I don't see what would be wrong with that, it just lets him get good damage for punishing an opponents mistake
• Easier to juggle off low hat callback - It's not that easy to convert off of right now, nothing wrong with making it easier to combo off of
• Walkspeed buff - nah he doesn't need it

Also what F0xy said a million times over, he's not much of a threat without hat. He needs something to keep him from not dying while hatless.

 

[I GOT HANDS]

4. Hat-a-rang does scale a lot, I don't think that's a contestable point, but the only thing increasing the damage on that will do is make his combos normal. If you think giving it normal scaling would break him you're mental lol. An EX move is supposed to enhance the effect of the move and what it does is make it able to be comboed from but there's no point in doing that because it can scale harder than if you were to just do a meterless combo or a combo into ex spin. How would it remove the originality of the variation?! Technically by cancelling your blockstrings into Hat Traps your pressure becomes more like Tempest, whereas cancelling blockstrings into Hat-a-rang gives you pressure only Hat Trick has. In the same way Tempest can hat spin and Buzz Saw can straight hat, Hat Trick should be able to get that same kind of reward from Hat-a-rang.

So your saying what, a successful connect from our EX projectile should open combo for like 40% from fullscreen? It's already currently at 30% for that.

Hat-A-Rang isn't a combo tool, and doesn't need to be since it's so good already :S And as far as combo tools go, we have spin, and mid combo Hat Callback off a properly executed set up for combo extension tools. If anything, the scaling (or gravity) should be improved for Hat Callback to make the reward more justified for the successful set-up and execute.

 

[Big Pampering]

the ex hat toss is already really good imo. You can throw it out to get in and works better than ex buzzsaw because it's so fast. You can use it to whiff punish far range whiffs but you really need to be a hat trick main to be in the mindset of even using it like that. Yeh it scales a lot but you can still get some decent damage with it. It's an option to go for at least, buzzsaw doesnt have any of that.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

In my hat trick experience, I think just the gravity on hat call back should be better. Just, as someone mentioned, we get more reward for the extensive work it can take to get a pop up.

Also, the hat - a rang is such a good tool and really negates any reason to teleport (as far as trying to get in) and really sets up the pressure options even full screen. Overused and it can be baited and punished but keep it new and fresh and it's a nightmare for the opponent.

There are some characters that, even though hat call back hits mid, can duck hat call back which can be hard to deal with. There's always low hat option too.

And one more thing: not many in the tempest/buzzsaw community that even KNOW this string exists but I love b12 and f21 during pressure and setups. The startup is pretty good but the best part is the forward progression, quickness, and b21 hits mid as well.

 

[Youphemism]

So your saying what, a successful connect from our EX projectile should open combo for like 40% from fullscreen? It's already currently at 30% for that.

Hat-A-Rang isn't a combo tool, and doesn't need to be since it's so good already :S And as far as combo tools go, we have spin, and mid combo Hat Callback off a properly executed set up for combo extension tools. If anything, the scaling (or gravity) should be improved for Hat Callback to make the reward more justified for the successful set-up and execute.

When did I say that? I didn't mention anything about increasing the hitstun nor giving 40% so stop putting words in my mouth. I'm saying that if you connect an EX Hat-a-rang you should not be rewarded with less than what you could've done without using the meter. As I said, why use the bar if it doesn't actually enhance the move?

Of course it's a combo tool, why else would it come back and let you combo off of it? Yes you do have spin but it doesn't connect off of every string on the ground unless you ex it so you could use Hat-a-rang instead but there's no point right now because it scales so much. It's arguably a better ex move (or at least should be) because it gives you more combo potential since the opponent is still on the ground and it therefore gives you (or should lol) the opportunity to do more damage without worrying about gravity. Also "so good already" is a bit of an overstatement. Having a full combo punishable gap when blocked is not "so good" nor is being given a heavily scaled combo when it lands lol. It's good that it does give you a combo in the first place but there's more reason right now to just ex spin since it does more damage.

I agree with what you're saying about the scaling being toned down on callback, we should be being rewarded for doing something right. Kinda the same point I'm making about Hat-a-rang but I get that we all have different opinions about it.

 

[UsedForGlue]

The only fixing that it needs, is that the MB call back is armoured, and the hit box needs to be lowered meaning it won't wiff on some opponents in the corner, making it a true mid.

Also, the more I think about it, I don't think he needs a string that allows the hat toss into advantage, then it would be no different than tempest, for example 112124 Hat Toss - 112124 MB Call back - 112124 Hat toss and so on and so on.

 

[Aqueous_Echo]

The only fixing that it needs, is that the MB call back is armoured, and the hit box needs to be lowered meaning it won't wiff on some opponents in the corner, making it a true mid.

Also, the more I think about it, I don't think he needs a string that allows the hat toss into advantage, then it would be no different than tempest, for example 112124 Hat Toss - 112124 MB Call back - 112124 Hat toss and so on and so on.

There's a reason hat trick is the most underused of KL's variations. Tempest is just easy tbh. There's not even many buzzsaws around anymore. There has only ever been very few hat trick mains and that number hasn't really changed since launch.

Anyway, I just want to say that even though variations are different with every ONE character, that doesn't mean you play that character with the same mindset of another variation.

Doing a string into a safe hat trap you have 3 or even 4 options (block a poke/punish, do your own poke into pressure, continue your pressure, or call the hat right back to punish a baited punish).

Tempest is more of an offensive variation and so is buzzsaw. Hat trick has its moments of offense with pressure yes, but to give + on hat trap is ridiculous to me. Just keep this variation and it's frames the same and adjust gravity a bit to help with his damage. At least to give about 5% more. That's it.

I like how hat trick plays because it makes you think, it makes you adapt, and it makes you understand footsies/pokes a lot more (if you aren't familiar). The variation thrives on pokes, footsies, and a mix of offense/defense

 

[UsedForGlue]

The current game plan on Hat Trick is, post hat toss from a string:

Back dash to make opponents reversal wiff
Block to block their poke and then leave them infant of the hat
D4 to counter their throw or standing normals
Do a 1 string if they are mind fucked or too slow.

If he had an advantage string, all this would be gone.