MAT: Consensus Top 3 (5/29/16)

Kano is so good but he has no representation... I wonder why... it puts to question how good he really is, no tier whores play as him at tournaments so far. xD

Gofer_MK_ said:

Kano is so good but he has no representation... I wonder why... it puts to question how good he really is, no tier whores play as him at tournaments so far. xD

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He needs a player to use him at full potential. Right now Mileena has Foxy, Alien has Tweedy , Sonya has Scar....

YoloRoll1stHit said:

He needs a player to use him at full potential. Right now Mileena has Foxy, Alien has Tweedy , Sonya has Scar....

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Well, @GAMETIME is a fantastic Kano player. But I guess school or other things keep him form attending tournaments.

Johnny and Kano both don't have any good representation, but they are really good and should be in top 6-7 at worst. The thing is Johnny and Kano both have at least one obvious losing MU (both lose to Sub-zero, Johnny loses to Liu). Shinnok probably has even more losing MUs (Liu, Takeda, maybe D'Vorah and Kung Jin), so top 3 imo is between Takeda and Sonya Demo, I can't think of any obvious bad MU for them (5.5 should not count)

Dankster Morgan said:

There are like 10 top 3 characters

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And there are like 20 top 10 characters. Despite everything, MKXL is pretty balance

Mileena
Alien
Johnny

Just cuz Hayatei is a God doesn't mean that he is the 3rd best in the game...as long as f3 run cancels on hit or whiff, Cage is 3rd

EXILE CoRzz said:

Mileena
Alien
Johnny

Just cuz Hayatei is a God doesn't mean that he is the 3rd best in the game...as long as f3 run cancels on hit or whiff, Cage is 3rd

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Character placement should be based on MU, not character's tools

Darkling said:

Johnny and Kano both don't have any good representation, but they are really good and should be in top 6-7 at worst. The thing is Johnny and Kano both have at least one obvious losing MU (both lose to Sub-zero, Johnny loses to Liu). Shinnok probably has even more losing MUs (Liu, Takeda, maybe D'Vorah and Kung Jin), so top 3 imo is between Takeda and Sonya Demo, I can't think of any obvious bad MU for them (5.5 should not count)

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Shinnok lose to KJ? Hahahahahaha k

Darkling said:

Character placement should be based on MU, not character's tools

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Ummm...Mileena is 80% #1 cuz of b1 staggers so plz stop.

Yea her B1 is insanely good but it is not the only reason. She is top 3 also because of her zoning, her teleport to counter zoning, armor breaking string, re-stand (take them out and Mileena will be top 10 at best). Anyway, character placement is always based on MU (because MU is the best way to evaluate overall character), not by a specific tool

EXILE CoRzz said:

Ummm...Mileena is 80% #1 cuz of b1 staggers so plz stop.

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It's actually a fair point, Corzz. Typically, tier lists are decided by match-up charts, with most favorable being placed at the top and least favorable toward the bottom.

Its a lot more useful in seeing how characters' tools interact in actual play than just comparing/contrasting tools.

This is how tier lists are made in almost every other fighter except ours, for some reason.

Darkling said:

Yea her B1 is insanely good but it is not the only reason. She is top 3 also because of her zoning, her teleport to counter zoning, armor breaking string, re-stand. Anyway, character placement is always based on MU (because MU is the best way to evaluate overall character), not by a specific tool

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And her b12 is the armor breaking string that leads into her restand. Her b1 is the single hardest thing to deal with in this game. Nobody has a real counter. Cage's f3 is the same way...if I want to get really specific I can rattle off the restand, the mixups, the chip damage, the meter less damage, so-on.

The strength of tools determines MUs. Honestly, MU numbers are fugazze. Nobody plays the character at its highest possible ability and if someone did, nobody could play other characters at the highest possibly ability. MU numbers are toolset v toolset. For instance, Hunter Pred's mine is good but certain not a MU deciding factor, I'm sure we can agree...you use it vs Bartitsu BRC and it turns the MU into a severe problem for Bartitsu.

Now Cage's f3~run cancel is a tool that NOBODY can defend and it leads to his pressure, its safe AF on whiff and the hit box for it is insane. If nobody can defend against a tool, that makes the MUs more in his favor than not.

EXILE CoRzz said:

And her b12 is the armor breaking string that leads into her restand. Her b1 is the single hardest thing to deal with in this game. Nobody has a real counter. Cage's f3 is the same way...if I want to get really specific I can rattle off the restand, the mixups, the chip damage, the meter less damage, so-on.

The strength of tools determines MUs. Honestly, MU numbers are fugazze. Nobody plays the character at its highest possible ability and if someone did, nobody could play other characters at the highest possibly ability. MU numbers are toolset v toolset. For instance, Hunter Pred's mine is good but certain not a MU deciding factor, I'm sure we can agree...you use it vs Bartitsu BRC and it turns the MU into a severe problem for Bartitsu.

Now Cage's f3~run cancel is a tool that NOBODY can defend and it leads to his pressure, its safe AF on whiff and the hit box for it is insane. If nobody can defend against a tool, that makes the MUs more in his favor than not.

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You do realize match-up based tier lists have existed and seen practical use for a long time, right?

Simply comparing tools doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone that takes the game seriously knows what they are.

But do we know how every character interacts with every other character? No.

That's why breaking down every match up is so important. You don't need to be Daigo to do that. If anything, breaking down every match up can further your understanding as you do it.

ismael4790 said:

I would put A-List Cage below Alien, Mileena and Takeda, because he gets tired and he is a high execution character that requires much more from the player.

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I don't see how his execution makes him weaker once you get his execution his gameplan looks pretty straight forward and in my opinion saying that the fact that he needs stamina is a weakness is like saying takeda's weakness is that he needs meter to do damage.

The strength of toolS (not one specific tool) determines MUs, that's correct, we should also count character defence (I know this is lacking in MKX but it still counts). For example, Mileena zoning can be used offensively or defensively (when you have life lead). Her teleport is decent for counter zoning. These reasons are why Mileena can deal with most if not all of the cast.

When I speak of MU, I mean all the character's tools are evaluated and compared to other characters' and then we have the result number, not a random number comes out of nowhere. (so this is basically why tier list for the whole roster is impractical, no one has time and knowledge to compare every tools, but in here we are speaking of some characters that can be top 3 so at least it is easier and less time-consuming)

It will be a long debate and off-topic to compare Mileena and Cage here. And don't get me wrong, I'm not downplaying Cage (he is still debatable top 3 with Sonya Takeda Dvorah). I just want to say a single insanely good tool cannot guarantee a character in top 3. To be in top 3, a character must be well rounded or has 3 or 4 insane tools. Alien and Mileena are definitely in top 3 because Alien has zoning, stacking damage, restand, mix-up, insane range and we all know what Mileena has.

Rude said:

You do realize match-up based tier lists have existed and seen practical use for a long time, right?

Simply comparing tools doesn't accomplish anything. Everyone that takes the game seriously knows what they are.

But do we know how every character interacts with every other character? No.

That's why breaking down every match up is so important. You don't need to be Daigo to do that. If anything, breaking down every match up can further your understanding as you do it.

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Uhhh, I'm not doubting that?

I was told MU numbers not tools but tools are a direct reflection of MU numbers especially in MKX where tools are utilized more and footsies/spacing is utilized less.

MU numbers are dictated by two characters tools and the ability to deal with them. You do realized that, right?

KHTC Takgillo said:

I don't see how his execution makes him weaker once you get his execution his gameplan looks pretty straight forward and in my opinion saying that the fact that he needs stamina is a weakness is like saying takeda's weakness is that he needs meter to do damage.

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I agree, after the most recent patch stamina recovers twice as fast...so the need for stamina isn't as much of a problem as before.

EXILE CoRzz said:

Uhhh, I'm not doubting that?

I was told MU numbers not tools but tools are a direct reflection of MU numbers especially in MKX where tools are utilized more and footsies/spacing is utilized less.

MU numbers are dictated by two characters tools and the ability to deal with them. You do realized that, right?

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If course, but the talk isn't about how those tools interact, is it?

No. Rattling off a grocery list of Mileena's moveset and saying, "bruh, broken" is something anyone with a pair of eyes, a functioning knowledge of frame data, and the pause button can do. That's not productive talk.

Now, if you were to say something like, "Piercing beats x character because..." and proceed to discuss the actual meta, then you'd have some substance.

Also, are we still down playing footsies in this game? I thought that was dead. Simply bevause the neutral/footsie game happens faster and momentum plays a bigger role doesn't mean that isn't just as important as tools.

After all, you could play the best character and your opponent the worst, and if your spacing sucks and his/hers doesn't, you'll probably lose.

KHTC Takgillo said:

I don't see how his execution makes him weaker once you get his execution his gameplan looks pretty straight forward and in my opinion saying that the fact that he needs stamina is a weakness is like saying takeda's weakness is that he needs meter to do damage.

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First of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.

ismael4790 said:

First of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.

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Player's execution does not have an effect on their characters placement in a tier list, nor does it have an effect on a MU chart. What you're saying is "player X failed at event Y due to character Z being hard to use" and what others are saying is "character Z (that character X plays) has these tools to deal with these MU's"

Rude said:

If course, but the talk isn't about how those tools interact, is it?

No. Rattling off a grocery list of Mileena's moveset and saying, "bruh, broken" is something anyone with a pair of eyes, a functioning knowledge of frame data, and the pause button can do. That's not productive talk.

Now, if you were to say something like, "Piercing beats x character because..." and proceed to discuss the actual meta, then you'd have some substance.

Also, are we still down playing footsies in this game? I thought that was dead. Simply bevause the neutral/footsie game happens faster and momentum plays a bigger role doesn't mean that isn't just as important as tools.

After all, you could play the best character and your opponent the worst, and if your spacing sucks and his/hers doesn't, you'll probably lose.

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I play ShaoJin and Ninjutsu...I use footsie characters...I am now downplaying footsies...but...comparing it to the likes of SFV...where its 90% footsies...MKX relies more on tools...

You are arguing about nothing. All of this stemmed from me saying F3~run cancel was godlike and no character can deal with it. A character having a single tool that NO character can deal with well will instantly put them higher on the tier list because that instantly makes the MU numbers more in his favor than otherwise. Specifically, imagine of Cage couldn't f3~run cancel at all. You instantly don't have to respect that range as much (only d4), his pressure is more basic run cancel like LK...relying on chip damage and then losing your turn unless you use meter, he doesnt get grabs as free and he can not longer push you to the wall by doing 3 f3~run cancels on block or hit. Doesn't that make MUs more even because you don't have to worry about that tool? But that tool exists, therefore dealing with Cage as a whole becomes even more difficult. As much as you want to admit it or not, a single tool in MKX can completely alter a MU.

A perfect example is Shinnok's imposter move steal. He is so good because he steals typically the best move a character has (KJ's MB flip kick for no meter, Cassie's mb gun shots that does 18% chip, and so-on)...that tool can be implemented mid-combo, too.

So that TOOL alone makes him beat Cassie 6-4 if not worse.

ismael4790 said:

First of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.

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What i am saying is that once Johnny cage stamina bar become empty you still have to guess If he is going to grab 11 into f2 113 armor etc the end of his stamina bar isn t the end of his offense but the begining of a possiblity of defense for his oponent
All the factor you gave for cancel characters are linked to the player not the character and should have no place in deciding his position in a best character least because it s not a easy to use list

ismael4790 said:

First of all, A-list is super good, this is obvious.
But there are characters with a very threatening pressure that doesn't cost stamina, + other virtues he doesn't have, that's why I wouldn't consider him top 3 candidate.
The main problem with cancel characters imo is that they can fail you more often that characters whose pressure don't rely on cancels. The point is not "they require stamina", but "they require execution".
No doubt you can master the cancels to a point where you almost never fail them. But it will always be more likely to fail with a cancel character than with a regular one. Nerves, different game environment, different screens...even very little changes can make you not be on point and screw up. It's in part what happened to Xarakamaka, and nobody doubts he mastered Liu cancels.

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Execution can effect a character's tournament representation, not its placement. Cage, DVorah, Liu Kang are not represented by many top players doesn't mean they are bad, people just don't like to pick them

The point I'm trying to make is that if two characters could apply similar threatening gameplans, but one requires execution and the other does not...should not the second one be considered best, because it can give same results with less effort and more consistently?

ismael4790 said:

The point I'm trying to make is that if two characters could apply similar threatening gameplans, but one requires execution and the other does not...should not the second one be considered best, because it can give same results with less effort and more consistently?

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No they are equally good one is just easier to use