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Video/Tutorial - Summoner Beta Quan! Buffs and Normalizations!

haha... no he can't. He never got that much off one bar. 45% tops in a real game. That's also with a bat starting the combo and a bat in the middle of trance. Check your privilege.
Dude, Summoner can get 50%+ one bar combos. You don't know what you're talking about.
 

Goat-City

Banned
You have been complaining about meter drain spell for a long time. NRS has done exactly what i recommended they should do, and they completely reinvented this variation.

Sorcerer Quan is about to become a different type of top tier character. Everyone thinking the world is ending is nuts. so to summarize

Normal Trance into Meter drain into combo still works (this always worked, was just a little harder to do)
trance while in the drain portal looks like it removes half a bar
drains on block as well for specials

so for one bar i should be able to drain almost 2 bars depending on the combo. who cares if there are gaps now, they will never be able to armor. so what, you cant chip someone out for 100% guaranteed. As if that wasnt going to be nerfed. combined with the 20% less chip on normals, all thats changed is that instead of armor and chip, you will be doing armor and drains. i prefer it to be honest. I've already posted videos in the past on the type of potential this has, and it is amplified now to an absurd amount. I will be labbing him this week to see what ridiculousness he can do now.
My concern with it is not being able to cancel it with the armor spell. No matter how much meter you drain for however many bars, once the combo is over you're still stuck with the meter drain spell with no benefit from the armor spell. So why would I spend 2 bars for a 40% combo and drain a bar of their meter midscreen when I can just go for a 34% combo for no meter and get a free armor spell setup? Same in the corner except it's worse. You didn't need to be able to cancel the chip spell because you'd usually be using it to end rounds since it's a damage amplifier, but the meter spell does not increase damage so if it doesn't kill after you use it you're stuck without all the benefits the armor spell brings, so why not just save your own meter and go for the armor spell setup?
 

Colest

Mid-Tier 'Mancer Main
No I read your post. The term vortex is used looser nowadays. Everyone understands what you mean when you use the term, it seems to have slightly different definition around these parts.
The purpose of specifying the term is the same reason why the term was invented. It describes a scenario in fighting games that is a summation of very specific scenarios. These scenarios not only specify what the vortexer is doing but what the person on the receiving end of the vortex is not able to do. It originally applied to wake up scenarios in SF because Oki options were very limited, to the point of being inescapable and the match being decided by how they guess on the mixup. Using the term vortex in this scenario is being completely ignorant about that facet of the matchup.

A traditional vortex locks up your opponent's options. Calling the summoner bat mixup a vortex when you don't have the meter to kill is ignoring what options the opponent has that someone wouldn't have in a traditional vortex (being able to break, depending on where and how the mixup is set up it could lead right back to neutral, etc.) It's also entirely misleading because for vortex characters their goal should be to try to set up that scenario as soon and as quick as possible to close out the opponent's options. That isn't the case for Summoner Quan now because there's umpteen hurdles for him to jump through including, but not limited to:
- He can't lock out the match for X amount of seconds because he needs to build enough meter and damage his opponent enough to set up the vortex.
- He has to monitor his opponent's resources and make them waste it for the vortex to be a vortex
- With the new time limit being a real constraint he can't durdle around to set up this lengthy scenario
- The tier stratification being lowered and some of the buffs he got leading to Summoner Quan becoming a more well-rounded character.

It's just incorrect to say that Quan's gameplan is spent the majority of the time trying to set up the the bat mixup to be able to vortex, like say a traditional Akuma player that practically has a fucking flowchart in a great deal of matchups that all point toward vortex.

The word describes WAAAAY more than the mixup loop. It describes an entire playstyle that just doesn't exist in that facet for the Bat Mixup.
 

Shaikhuzzaman

magicmeerkatman
The purpose of specifying the term is the same reason why the term was invented. It describes a scenario in fighting games that is a summation of very specific scenarios. These scenarios not only specify what the vortexer is doing but what the person on the receiving end of the vortex is not able to do. It originally applied to wake up scenarios in SF because Oki options were very limited, to the point of being inescapable and the match being decided by how they guess on the mixup. Using the term vortex in this scenario is being completely ignorant about that facet of the matchup.

A traditional vortex locks up your opponent's options. Calling the summoner bat mixup a vortex when you don't have the meter to kill is ignoring what options the opponent has that someone wouldn't have in a traditional vortex (being able to break, depending on where and how the mixup is set up it could lead right back to neutral, etc.) It's also entirely misleading because for vortex characters their goal should be to try to set up that scenario as soon and as quick as possible to close out the opponent's options. That isn't the case for Summoner Quan now because there's umpteen hurdles for him to jump through including, but not limited to:
- He can't lock out the match for X amount of seconds because he needs to build enough meter and damage his opponent enough to set up the vortex.
- He has to monitor his opponent's resources and make them waste it for the vortex to be a vortex
- With the new time limit being a real constraint he can't durdle around to set up this lengthy scenario
- The tier stratification being lowered and some of the buffs he got leading to Summoner Quan becoming a more well-rounded character.

It's just incorrect to say that Quan's gameplan is spent the majority of the time trying to set up the the bat mixup to be able to vortex, like say a traditional Akuma player that practically has a fucking flowchart in a great deal of matchups that all point toward vortex.

The word describes WAAAAY more than the mixup loop. It describes an entire playstyle that just doesn't exist in that facet for the Bat Mixup.
After HKD the opponent has more options to escape than if the quan did a d4 or something similar where the overhead or low bat is guaranteed (METERLESS! REQUIRES NO METER. DO YOU UNDERSTAND?). On knockdown there are plenty ways to escape. Delayed wakeup, armoured wakeup, backdash. You should probably use quan before you try to tell every quan player on TYM that they're wrong.
 

STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
The purpose of specifying the term is the same reason why the term was invented. It describes a scenario in fighting games that is a summation of very specific scenarios. These scenarios not only specify what the vortexer is doing but what the person on the receiving end of the vortex is not able to do. It originally applied to wake up scenarios in SF because Oki options were very limited, to the point of being inescapable and the match being decided by how they guess on the mixup. Using the term vortex in this scenario is being completely ignorant about that facet of the matchup.

A traditional vortex locks up your opponent's options. Calling the summoner bat mixup a vortex when you don't have the meter to kill is ignoring what options the opponent has that someone wouldn't have in a traditional vortex (being able to break, depending on where and how the mixup is set up it could lead right back to neutral, etc.) It's also entirely misleading because for vortex characters their goal should be to try to set up that scenario as soon and as quick as possible to close out the opponent's options. That isn't the case for Summoner Quan now because there's umpteen hurdles for him to jump through including, but not limited to:
- He can't lock out the match for X amount of seconds because he needs to build enough meter and damage his opponent enough to set up the vortex.
- He has to monitor his opponent's resources and make them waste it for the vortex to be a vortex
- With the new time limit being a real constraint he can't durdle around to set up this lengthy scenario
- The tier stratification being lowered and some of the buffs he got leading to Summoner Quan becoming a more well-rounded character.

It's just incorrect to say that Quan's gameplan is spent the majority of the time trying to set up the the bat mixup to be able to vortex, like say a traditional Akuma player that practically has a fucking flowchart in a great deal of matchups that all point toward vortex.

The word describes WAAAAY more than the mixup loop. It describes an entire playstyle that just doesn't exist in that facet for the Bat Mixup.
Ok you're misunderstanding I think.

If Quan gets you in a trance, and does d3, it's +16. Allowing for a free b2 trance, or b324 combo into trance. This costs no resources, as he doesn't need meter to do it, the opponent has to guess, and it continuously loops into itself. Now the breaker system is the exception to your definition. But breaker is a feature unique to mortal kombat. So it's certainly not unreasonable to use this term to describe a very similar situation of that as street fighter. Almost every game has adopted the term DP even though there's no dragon punch in every game. But it helps people understand similar moves and situations. So, to make you happy, yes you are correct. It does not meet the EXACT definition as it did for street fighter, but if you're going to come to this site and correct terms this community has used for years to cater to your understanding of a completely different fighting game then I suggest you brush up on your social skills or stay on shoryuken.com.
 

God Confirm

We're all from Earthrealm. If not, cool pic brah.
haha... no he can't. He never got that much off one bar. 45% tops in a real game. That's also with a bat starting the combo and a bat in the middle of trance. Check your privilege.
It's almost like Quan players understand the game a little better...
The fact that you posted these two statements one after the other is pretty hilarious
 
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Colest

Mid-Tier 'Mancer Main
Ok you're misunderstanding I think.

If Quan gets you in a trance, and does d3, it's +16. Allowing for a free b2 trance, or b324 combo into trance. This costs no resources, as he doesn't need meter to do it, the opponent has to guess, and it continuously loops into itself. Now the breaker system is the exception to your definition. But breaker is a feature unique to mortal kombat. So it's certainly not unreasonable to use this term to describe a very similar situation of that as street fighter. Almost every game has adopted the term DP even though there's no dragon punch in every game. But it helps people understand similar moves and situations. So, to make you happy, yes you are correct. It does not meet the EXACT definition as it did for street fighter, but if you're going to come to this site and correct terms this community has used for years to cater to your understanding of a completely different fighting game then I suggest you brush up on your social skills or stay on shoryuken.com.
The fucking reading comprehension in this thread is just phenomenal. I was and have been talking about the hard to blockable bat set up. Hence the numerous mentions of "Summoner" and "Bat" in my post. Again, read my post before you reply next time because you clearly didn't.

Defending people misusing words is defending ignorance. The reason why terms like footsies have no meaning anymore is because a group of people failed to understand what the term meant, misused it egregiously, and their inane use of the word misinformed a bunch of people as to its proper meaning. The MK community hasn't been misusing this word "for years" so quit making shit up.
 
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STB Shujinkydink

Burning down in flames for kicks
The fucking reading comprehension in this thread is just phenomenal. I was and have been talking about the hard to blockable bat set up. Hence the numerous mentions of "Summoner" and "Bat" in my post. Again, read my post before you reply next time because you clearly didn't.

Defending people misusing words is defending ignorance. The reason why terms like footsies have no meaning anymore is because a group of people failed to understand what the term meant, misused it egregiously, and their inane use of the word misinformed a bunch of people as to its proper meaning. The MK community hasn't been misusing this word "for years" so quit making shit up.
We were discussing the meterless vortex which you claimed Quan didn't have. I merely explained to you he did have one.

And yes we have been using the term for years. Mk9 scorpion had a vortex. It was well known and referred to as that
 

Israfel

Designer for BxA
Hey guys did you know that Guilty Gear has a character that uses a pool cue and billiard balls? I figured I would add to the irrelevant topics since that is apparently a thing.

Anyways, Quan got a few minor tweaks in the beta, let's contemplate reworking our game plan and find out what does and doesn't stay in the final release of the KP2 patch roll outs.
 

PND_Ketchup

"More deadly than the dawn"
Is it known that sorcerer purple spell drains meter on block now too?

Only just noticed it now I'm playing Quan myself.
 

Aramonde

Noob
So after watching Dink and Ketchup play the beta im loving the changes.

Summoner is fine you just have to play smarter.

Sorcerers meter drain strategy is viable now and i like it better than chipping people to death (How much it drains with trance is crazy!). Im sure our lab monster @Under_The_Mayo will find some cool black magic set ups and other cool stuff.

And Warlock is the same minus 1to2% less damage. Im really excited and want this to come already!
 

Nuovo_Cabjoy

G O R O B O Y S
So after watching Dink and Ketchup play the beta im loving the changes.

Summoner is fine you just have to play smarter.

Sorcerers meter drain strategy is viable now and i like it better than chipping people to death (How much it drains with trance is crazy!). Im sure our lab monster @Under_The_Mayo will find some cool black magic set ups and other cool stuff.

And Warlock is the same minus 1to2% less damage. Im really excited and want this to come already!
* @Gustavness already found setups for black magic, I'm sure he's already got updated versions haha. This change legitimately makes me want to play the character again. There's something super pleasing about carefully managing yours and your opps meter.