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The Argument Against Normalized Throws

How do you prefer the throws to function?

  • Strong (Mortal Kombat X)

    Votes: 75 51.4%
  • Normalized (Beta Mortal Kombat XL)

    Votes: 71 48.6%

  • Total voters
    146

WiseM0nkey

welcome to the ButtSlam
So you didn't say that it's harder to press back to block but then you're going to explain to me why it's harder to press back to block?

Not everyone that's viable in those games has an ambiguous cross over. Throwing is still good. They don't have a problem opening people up without ambiguous cross overs OR OH / Low starters, but throws are still strong.

the point is, throws are not worthless if you can tech them without guessing. Would they be less strong if you could read it and tech it right? Of course they would. Would they be worthless? Not even close to it at all. If that were true, a tick throw in any otehr game wouldn't ever connect. That's obviously not how it works.

Not to mention the absolute stupid guess can be set up in MK by using block strings that do chip damage on normals.

MK throwing is stupid.
duck and punish on read. 50/50s denied.
 
1) There is more time to tech the throws in the enhanced online version of the game than there is in the current version.
2) Teching refers to escaping the throw after it's been done to you. There is a very small window to do so (in the current version of the game), so you have to be waiting for it (you have to "read" it). You have to press certain buttons (see answer to question 3) just when you're being grabbed in order to escape.
3) To throw backwards, you have to press the throw button (or 1+3) and back or nothing at the same time. To throw forward, you have to press the throw button while holding forward. Tapping front punch or front kick will let you escape a throw backwards, while back punch and back kick will let you escape a throw forward. So, since you gotta make the right decision as to whether your opponent will try to throw you forward or backwards, it's a 50/50.
Ah ok, thanks you so much for the answers! (=
 
BRING MKDC THROWS BACK



This is the best way to balance it IMO. What'd be best for teching rewards is some or all of: {Frame advantage, no damage penalty of 2%, meter gain}



This is false, Soul Calibur also has 50/50 throws, difference is that they're avoidable by crouch block.
If you have more than an option to guess right or guess wrong, it's not a 50/50.
 

RiBBz22

TYM's Confirmed Prophet/Time-Traveler
I was wondering when this thread was going to get posted. Personally, I wouldn't mind the tech window staying the same... but just be a normal throw break that doesn't factor in the throw's direction.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
This is what you're not getting. You can't say that pressing back to block isn't any harder and then in the same breath explain that there are more mixups to be concerned with directionally in those games. "It's not harder; you have more mixups to deal with when there's ambiguous cross ups because there's both left and right and overhead and low."

That sentence is a contradiction. you don't get to say it's just as easy but then contradict that stance by explaining what makes it harder. If you don't think having to deal with those other directional mixups is harder (which apparently you do despite what you've said), then why are you using it as an argument in favor of 50/50 throws because it's not as easy to open people up without ambiguous cross overs? I understand what you're saying just fine.. You just don't understand what you're implying.

Again look at the example of rufus. He doesn't have an ambiguous cross over, so back to block doesn't matter in this example, meaning you don't have to worry about the left / right directional mixup. Good so far? He also does NOT have OH / Low mixup starters. Still got it? Even with those things being true, he does extremely well in majors. High level players have no problem opening people up, and he has one of the strongest throw setups in the game.

Lack of Back to block and OH/Low mixups are not suitable arguments to support throwing being a 50/50 in MK.

I didn't say there weren't characters in capcom games that had ambiguous cross overs. I jsut said that the ones that don't do not struggle to open people up or even tick throw people the way you're suggesting they would with similar mechanics in MK. Rufus shouldn't ever be able to hit or throw anyone at all if what you're saying was true.
You are the one that said that back to block is no harder than block button...
 
You are the one that said that back to block is no harder than block button...
And?

I don't think defending those ambiguous cross ups is any harder than just pressing block. You agreed that it's just as easy and then wrote a paragraph to try and prove that it wasn't just as easy. I was showing you that even if we just agreed, the cause and effect - not being able to open people up still isn't there. Even without ambiguous cross ups not factoring in (this is the same as agreeing that pressing block is just as easy), tick throws and opening people up still aren't gone.

Have you seen any high level Ultra matches of players getting thrown sometimes 3 or 4 times in a row? Does that have anything to do with OH / Low starters or ambiguous cross overs? No. It doesn't.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
And?

I don't think defending those ambiguous cross ups is any harder than just pressing block. You agreed that it's just as easy and then wrote a paragraph to try and prove that it wasn't just as easy. I was showing you that even if we just agreed, the cause and effect - not being able to open people up still isn't there.
You don't think defending ambiguous crossups in a b2b game is any harder than defending an ambiguous crossup in a game with a block button... I rest my case

Given that the block button automatically blocks on either side in a crossup situation I don't understand how you could even say this
 
You don't think defending ambiguous crossups in a b2b game is any harder than defending an ambiguous crossup in a game with a block button... I rest my case

Given that the block button automatically blocks on either side in a crossup situation I don't understand how you could even say this
You agreed... like 10 minutes ago.

haha. Figure out what you want to argue please.

Again. Characters without ambiguous crossups, which aren't harder to defend then pressing a block button because you always know what side they will hit on, can still throw people and open people up just fine EVEN when they don't have OH / Low mixups.

Try and defend jump ins in MK by holding block all the time too. Lemme know how that works out for you.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
You agreed... like 10 minutes ago.

haha. Figure out what you want to argue please.

Again. Characters without ambiguous crossups, which aren't harder to defend then pressing a block button because you always know what side they will hit on, can still throw people and open people up just fine EVEN when they don't have OH / Low mixups.
Yes I understand that.

I thought your argument was that it is just as easy execution wise to press a direction or a button (which I agree with).

I DO NOT agree that blocking an ambiguous crossover in a b2b game is just as easy as blocking an ambiguous crossover in a block button game. That is all I am saying.
 

Scoot Magee

But I didn't want to dash
Throws have allegedly been normalized. According to reports, the escape window has been increased by an unknown amount of frames, permitting throws to be escaped easier. I think this change is abysmal for the following reasons.

1. Almost all zoning and defensive characters (i.e., Balanced Kenshi, Cybernetic Kano, Hish-Qu-Ten Predator, Royal Storm Kitana, etc.) lack 50/50 mix ups and thus rely on throws and staggered strings to create offense.

2. All vortex characters rely on 50/50 mix ups to break down opponents while all command throw characters rely on command throws to break down opponents. The point is vortex characters and command throw characters do not benefit from strong throws because they have superior mix ups.

3. People in the community have the image stuck in their heads of Foxy throwing opponents over and over again in the corner. Remember that Kung Lao's pressure has been normalized because the advantage on the EX hat spin has been reduced.

4. People in the community could not escape throws online because of lag. With the implementation of the enhanced online gameplay, this issue ought to be fixed.

5. High level players escape throws fairly well. As seen on stream, strong players like DJT and Scar are known to escape throws consistently.

The reality is that strong throws help characters with weak mix ups. They do not affect characters who already have good mix ups. Characters whom some people consider to have an overpowered throw game are being normalized in the beta. I personally think throws have been normalized so scrubs can finally escape throws and feel good about themselves, yet a fighting game should rarely ever be changed based on the lowest level of play. Revert throws to how they are currently in Mortal Kombat X.

Agree or disagree?
Honestly I was fine with the way the throw system was. There were plenty of ways to punish and os poke out/tech throws.

I will reserve judgement on the new changes for when I see how it will play out. There's still an element of guess involved which keeps them strong. Also the fact that people will be trying to break throws more due to the bigger window can possible set up some great counter hit setups.

I'm willing to wait and see how it plays out before passing judgment. This is coming from a ninjutsu scorpion player that gets most of his damage from throws lol.
 
Yes I understand that.

I thought your argument was that it is just as easy execution wise to press a direction or a button (which I agree with).

I DO NOT agree that blocking an ambiguous crossover in a b2b game is just as easy as blocking an ambiguous crossover in a block button game. That is all I am saying.
Alright then. Now, understand that this is not an argument in favor of 50/50 throw teching.
 

Matix218

Get over here!
Alright then. Now, understand that this is not an argument in favor of 50/50 throw teching.
Fair enough but there are plenty of characters that do not have strong overhead and low mixups and rely on mixing up pressure with tick throws and not having the 50/50 tech would destroy those characters and in turn just make the characters that have oh/low mixups even stronger by default
 

Wigy

There it is...
Legit nobody techs grabs on purpose: the window is too small and its a 50/50

Straight up grabs are so free unless the person is already pressing buttons
 

M2Dave

Zoning Master
66 people support normalized throws? It seems as though we were in the early 90s playing Street Fighter 2 with all the scrubs crying about throws. Probably the same scrubs who are anti-zoning zealots.
 

THTB

Arez | Booya | Riu48 - Rest Easy, Friends
The throws were fine, but it's whatever if they change them.
 

Crusty

Retired forever; don’t ask for games.
I don't have the game but I know Shinnok's 'braindead' restand is only effective because of how the throws and blocking work in this game. I can imagine this nerfing him.
 

EdFig81

Original OBS mbr/VSM/G4S
@Bruno-NeoSpace I want to reply to ure post but iPad is failing hard. Soo here I go @General M2Dave has nothing to prove. Why? Any mkx fan who watched majors and see throws tech left and right. Dave spoke facts his job imo is not to link u nor educate u. U follow the scene right? Watch a major he has no reason to show u proof. Watch the past 3 months imo..
Now new post:


Also I voted for the first option. Learn something (I hate to say this) but u can beat throws especially with a good read. Let mkx Rock without a throw nerf if nrs sees its op this is not of mk9 I am sure it will be handled smfh. Learn from your shit ya already raped subs clone smh. Or as lung says "learn from this" heh
 

Goat-City

Banned
I think they still need to be easier to tech than they are now. You still have to be thinking about the coming throw in order to react to it, and with the relentless offense in the game already it's just too hard to react to them consistently, but they should stay as 50/50s. Either that or they should stay as they are but not be 50/50s. I prefer the former option for MKX just because of how pressure heavy it is, but if offense wasn't so heavily favored in the game then I'd say the latter option would be better.

The argument that x character relies on free throws more than y character doesn't mean anything, that just means that x character needs buffs and y character has another brain dead offensive tool he doesn't need. From a gameplay design standpoint throws are dumb currently and character balance doesn't change that.