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General/Other - Sub-Zero Sub-Zero kombat pack 2 balance changes.

ryublaze

ryublaze

Noob
I think GM and Cryo are fine. Unbreakable just needs a better parry and maybe better use for aura. IMO it's not worth it to spend a bar to get + frames off of f4 when you can just use b2 which has more range than f4 and doubles as an overhead.

b33 is very hit confirmable, probably not online though. I think b33 iceball only working on females is fine. NRS games have always had female-specific combos and this is no different.

I don't think the b2/b33 mix-up is that fuzzyable. There's a 3 frame difference between the overhead and low and you can always delay the low if they're trying to fuzzy it.
 
ryublaze

ryublaze

Noob
Goat-City said:
Not really because your goal with Sub Zero midscreen generally is not to do any unsafe 50/50s. You just want to push the opponent into the corner with f4/f42 into a safe clone cancel. Having a meterless low combo starter is not nearly as valuable as being able to combo females in the corner for normal damage into a safe clone setup for no meter.
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This is playing like MK9 Sub-Zero. Instead of cancelling strings into clone, why not just go for your 50/50? His b2 is already a godlike footsie tool that anti-airs and doubles as an overhead that can be made safe at max range. He also has his 123 string that can be hit-confirmed and is only -8 on block which means he has forward-advancing 50/50s that are relatively safe. It's a lot better to be using b2/123 than f4/f42 clone imo.
 
Ze Dingo

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
Red Raptor said:
This is playing like MK9 Sub-Zero. Instead of cancelling strings into clone, why not just go for your 50/50? His b2 is already a godlike footsie tool that anti-airs and doubles as an overhead that can be made safe at max range. He also has his 123 string that can be hit-confirmed and is only -8 on block which means he has forward-advancing 50/50s that are relatively safe. It's a lot better to be using b2/123 than f4/f42 clone imo.
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Both B2 and 123 are punishable. B2 more than 123. Being -8 at point blank range against characters like Kang or Lao is just asking for trouble.

Heck, Lao can punish -8 with 32% 1 bar.
 
flappysamyhamy

flappysamyhamy

EMPEROR FLAPPY / EGGPLANT
Goat-City said:
OP actually thinks Cryomancer is better than Grandmaster apparently. I disagree.

Anyways, here's the buffs Grandmaster needs -

- b33 should connect with ice ball for a combo
- the EX clone should be 100% consistent when canceled with all strings on hit and on block
- extended pokes and normals like Predator's d4 and Kung Jin's staff should freeze on contact with the ice clone
- EX ice bomb should launch a bit higher or be a bit more plus on hit so you can combo more consistently on it after the run cancel nerf.
- All characters with hitboxes/gravity that make it difficult for Sub Zero to combo them in the corner should be fixed so he can combo them normally.
- 112 should have slightly more push back and be slightly less minus on block.
- 114 should lead to a hard knock down and be more plus on hit.
- b33d4 should be slightly less minus on block

I know the buff list is long but it's just general fixes and some buffs to his currently useless strings. The most important one is making the clone freeze extended weapon based normals. Without this fix, Sub Zero will continue to be stuck with several very, very bad matchups.
If compensation is needed for these buffs, then just nerf the damage on his b2 to do 7% instead of 9% or make f12 do 10% instead of 12%.

I might list what the other 2 variations should get later.
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I agree 100% also make 114 a true quick restand is my idea :) flap back
 
E

EMPR_MURK

Noob
These are ideas on what i think cryo should have...

Faster startup on d2 OR less block frames

A sword combo string (similar but not similar to ninjistu scorpion).
 
ryublaze

ryublaze

Noob
Ze Dingo said:
Both B2 and 123 are punishable. B2 more than 123. Being -8 at point blank range against characters like Kang or Lao is just asking for trouble.

Heck, Lao can punish -8 with 32% 1 bar.
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-8 is not an easy punish and how many characters can actually punish 123? You can also cancel 123 into clone. b2 has pushback depending on how you space it which makes it hard to punish for some characters. I'm not saying his 50/50s are 100% safe.
 
Ze Dingo

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
Red Raptor said:
-8 is not an easy punish and how many characters can actually punish 123? You can also cancel 123 into clone. b2 has pushback depending on how you space it which makes it hard to punish for some characters. I'm not saying his 50/50s are 100% safe.
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Look, I agree with you, but 123~clone is one of the most unsafe clone cancels there is. Easily armoured through on reaction.

And then, on to B2. Someone like Kang or Tanya will just start never ending pressure. Pretty sure Lao can combo punish it along with Scorp, Erron, Kotal etc.

I'm not downplaying the character, I'm just stating facts.

I fully agree that GM sub is really really good, but the amount of fools complaining without doing any lab work is getting on most Sub mains' nerves.

And absurd buff threads like these don't help one bit.
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
For the love of GOD will everyone just stop calling -8 and -10 punishable ffs. You know there's a thing called NOTEVERYONEPLAYSKUNGLAO. Oh joy kung lao punishes -8 now i can sleep better at night while he spams it the fuck out against the other chars with 10 frame fastest move. Yaaaaay
 
Ze Dingo

Ze Dingo

D4->F2 = unblockable. Ice Clone = unpunishable.
M.D. said:
For the love of GOD will everyone just stop calling -8 and -10 punishable ffs. You know there's a thing called NOTEVERYONEPLAYSKUNGLAO. Oh joy kung lao punishes -8 now i can sleep better at night while he spams it the fuck out against the other chars with 10 frame fastest move. Yaaaaay
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A poke is still a punish. I didn't call it a full combo punish for that very reason. But a punish is still a punish. Losing frame advantage in this game is just as scary as the prospect of eating a ton of damage.

Chill mate, before you pop an artery.
 
Barrogh

Barrogh

Meta saltmine
My 2 cents, although I'm not SZ main.

Unbreakable's parry (as well as FF Liu's) should work against those moves which for mechanical reasons ignore them (like Lao's spin) and perhaps attacks that make you airborne during startup. Maybe. Maybe even airborne attacks, but I feel that a couple of additional recovery frames for it should be in order. Maybe his parry should start recovering early if it absorbs a projectile, I'm not sure if that would be an improvement.

Another thing SZ suffer from is inconsistent combos into regular iceball and, perhaps, overly sensitive juggles (although this latter one is not something he *needs*).

M.D. said:
For the love of GOD will everyone just stop calling -8 and -10 punishable ffs. You know there's a thing called NOTEVERYONEPLAYSKUNGLAO. Oh joy kung lao punishes -8 now i can sleep better at night while he spams it the fuck out against the other chars with 10 frame fastest move. Yaaaaay
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Who are those characters that still sit on 10f as their fastest move (Jason don't count, if that is even applicable to him anyway)?
 
conqueror

conqueror

Noob
i would only ask for a better ice ball for cryomancer [faster startup? directional control something like tempest lao hat? or something entirely new but not worse]
OR some of his old special moves, hes low on freeze moves in cryomancer
 
Yak

Yak

Noob
Lol... Gm is fine. Most he needs is a fix, b33 iceball works on males also. Oh and ice clone to be consistent. Ex ice clone to extend combos midscreen should not be broken like it is.
Cryomancer at least IMO should be buffed. He's kind of just here's some unsafe 50/50 stuff and a nice punish string. He just burns meter with no way of gaining it really.

Unbreakable lol... Well maybe with the updates he won't be as useless . give this variation the ground freeze or something, that would be pretty cool. Though I'm trying to think of what that move would actually do lol
 
Nu-Skoool

Nu-Skoool

Feel the nerf of despair
No ice clone cool down? Let's go full rainbow edition here and let Sub have multiple clones on screen. Id love to see the down player defense force for that one.
 
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