End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

Rude · Jan 3, 2016

An I the only one that finds it strange that this thread was made, presumably for the purposes of discussion, only for any and all contrary opinions to be quashed with, "you don't play my training partners," "you just don't know," or, "this is just our opinion, don't question it!" So on and so forth?

Look, anytime you put your perspective on a topic out onto a public forum, people will challenge it. As the person offering up the opinion, you need to be able to defend and back your opinion up. No one, on either side of this, can expect their opinion to exist in a vacuum, unchallenged and unquestioned by anyone else, regardless of who you are.

That isn't how discourse works.

Also, anecdotal evidence (like name-dropping) is not real evidence.

I'll say it again; anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.

Baconlord · Jan 3, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
I suppose it doesnt really help for the development of a character when quite a bit of their frame data in game menus is wrong, or that certain moves may be -10 lets say, but the animation keeps her safe.

B12 is minus 20 according to the frame data lol.

stamatis · Jan 3, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
First off I'll start with the Cassie explanation you wrote, which against alot of characters is totally wrong, the ONLY reason any Cassie could get a 'stagger mix up' while being -6, is due to the opponent letting them do it. Most characters have a way of stopping her doing anything else after that string, -6 is enough, she's pretty much limited to either blocking, or ex flipkicking, or spending the bar for ex gunshots.

For example, whats stopping a Mileena player from doing B12 every time they block Cassies B12?
See what I'm getting at here, biggest strength, biggest weakness, she has range but she gives up her turn to do it.

She may be + at the end of B124, but why would you even care about getting hit by the 4? Considering one of her problems is stamina, just take the 4 and she has to chase you again to stay in.

The 4 in that string is literally so neglegable.

Compare that to a string like Jax's F2, or Mileenas B12, or even Laos F2, I dont think theres any contest. Other strings have similar or the same range, and are advantage, or less negative AND give more damage. Perhaps reasons like these are the why we have different view points. Because mine actually work within the rules of the game, when played technically sound. There is no stagger.

And on the sub thing, he gets 40+ on both his overhead and low in the corner, I say 2 wrong guesses, becauase by the time you're cornered, you're gonna have lost some health already, and the remaining life usually doesnt have to come from a guess.

He may be minus after the shatter, but the pushback might as well make him neutral, because the space you have to cover to get to him, you're already sacrificing the frames you just got from blocking, I thought that was kinda obvious? You even commented on it... so again, its essentially a micro neutral game where he cant clone for a second, but if you want to get near him or out of the corner he still has multiple ways to keep you there.

The throw into clone isnt the best thing about his corner game, and it doesn't make it 'more than a 5050' because if youre gonna get thrown you always tech with 1. IMO the best thing about his corner game is the threat of it itself. You dont need to immediately use your clone set up on max damage. People get twitchy behind the clone, and thats usually a good way to kill them by punishing them for trying to do stupid shit.

But sorry, wtf do I know? I'm just spreading 'misinformation'
Perhaps I should adopt your school of thinking, cause mine clearly fails. You may have lost respect for K&M or whatever, but I dont have to follow their little code of politeness, dont give me this passive aggressive bullshit for a list on the internet.

And yeah, like Ketchup was saying, PLEASE find me a player with more Sub Zero experience than me.

all your questions have an answer,it is called risk.You have to risk your meter,your life,when someone is -6 you do not have the advandage,this is the game's plan!

Baconlord · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
it still doesn't make you guys the most experienced in those characters, playing against madzin or any other character every day is still MUCH less experience than pretty much any random Sub-Zero, Mileena or Liu Kang main who actually play as said character for even longer everyday in both every single match up and all their labbing. Nevermind comparing your experience to someone like Tom Brady. Or does experience mean something different nowadays?

I've been playing mileena since day 1 and I agree with everything they said about her. You don't have to main the character to understand them. And last time I checked Tom said he was top 5.

PND_Ketchup · Jan 3, 2016

Rude said:
An I the only one that finds it strange that this thread was made, presumably for the purposes of discussion, only for any and all contrary opinions to be quashed with, "you don't play my training partners," "you just don't know," or, "this is just our opinion, don't question it!" So on and so forth?

Look, anytime you put your perspective on a topic out onto a public forum, people will challenge it. As the person offering up the opinion, you need to be able to defend and back your opinion up. No one, on either side of this, can expect their opinion to exist in a vacuum, unchallenged and unquestioned by anyone else, regardless of who you are.

That isn't how discourse works.

Also, anecdotal evidence (like name-dropping) is not real evidence.

I'll say it again; anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.

There are different levels of discussion.

If an opinion is ended with "you don't have experience against these characters", which is a straight up incorrect statement, it will be corrected.

Rude · Jan 3, 2016

PND_Ketchup said:
There are different levels of discussion.

If an opinion is ended with "you don't have experience against these characters", which is a straight up incorrect statement, it will be corrected.

That's fine. The larger issue is the other way that argument is used whereby a speaker says(and I find this happens a lot in the FGC), "I play with [insert name], you don't do therefore I know more than you do."

That's an anecdotal argument. At some point, everyone was unknown until they were discovered. All it serves to do - to me anyway - is for the arguer to dismiss the person instead of the argument.

Big Pampering · Jan 3, 2016

Saying I play this and that player on a daily basis isn't going to help you convince someone in a discussion, because at the end of the day you're just asking people to take your word for it. These discussions will always be people throwing match up numbers around based on things that you yourself could figure out with 10 minutes in the lab. eg this character outdamages me, this character outranges me, my pokes or armor suck etc.

People are too lazy to explain how they think a match up should be played and tbh if you're going to be lazy about it anyway why bother discussing?

PND_Ketchup · Jan 3, 2016

Rude said:
That's fine. The larger issue is the other way that argument is used whereby a speaker says(and I find this happens a lot in the FGC), "I play with [insert name], you don't do therefore I know more than you do."

That's an anecdotal argument. At some point, everyone was unknown until they were discovered. All it serves to do - to me anyway - is for the arguer to dismiss the person instead of the argument.

But the "I play with x player" is only ever a reply to the statement of we don't have experience vs the character.

You're reading our replies and not the original comments being made by misinformed people.

God Confirm · Jan 3, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
She may be + at the end of B124, but why would you even care about getting hit by the 4? Considering one of her problems is stamina, just take the 4 and she has to chase you again to stay in.

Because then she gets in with free damage and a knockdown on block? That's not a good thing even if it does space you, especially since it opens you up to combo starter, which she can throw out SAFELY for a bar as well. This is a pretty gimmicky way to avoid her being +1. I mean at the very least, you guys are the ones who said it, "this string is bad because she isn't plus afterwards" when she literally is. That's kinda the definition of misinformation

And on the sub thing, he gets 40+ on both his overhead and low in the corner, I say 2 wrong guesses, becauase by the time you're cornered, you're gonna have lost some health already, and the remaining life usually doesnt have to come from a guess.

I don't get it, isn't this what I said, that he doesn't get 50% off his low starter at all, and it most often takes multiple successful combos to get a clone set up to even get the 45%? What part of my statement is this countering, I feel like its just agreeing with me and disagreeing with the misinformation you guys put out about him having a "50% meterless low starter that armour breaks!". He has a 45% low meterless option after a set-up, as the set-up followthrough, which does not armourbreak. He has less than 30% off the low starter to get that set-up, 31% off the low starter without going for the set-up. Your statements both there and here are misinformation.

A F0xy Grampa said:
He may be minus after the shatter, but the pushback might as well make him neutral, because the space you have to cover to get to him, you're already sacrificing the frames you just got from blocking, I thought that was kinda obvious? You even commented on it... so again, its essentially a micro neutral game where he cant clone for a second, but if you want to get near him or out of the corner he still has multiple ways to keep you there.

With 10 frames to work with I don't think there is a single member of the cast who can't hit him with an advancing normal fast enough to beat every normal he has even with the pushback. It is your turn. The advantage is yours, Sure he can armour or backdash or whatever, and I included this in my statement.

The throw into clone isnt the best thing about his corner game, and it doesn't make it 'more than a 5050' because if youre gonna get thrown you always tech with 1. IMO the best thing about his corner game is the threat of it itself. You dont need to immediately use your clone set up on max damage. People get twitchy behind the clone, and thats usually a good way to kill them by punishing them for trying to do stupid shit.

Ha, well, you are pretty damn good at teching the throw. I agree with you on this one, it's the mix-up, you won't catch anyone waiting for the Throw but I think you pretty much nailed it exactly, it's not the best thing about his corner game on its own, but IMO its the extra element that makes his corner game so deadly, Clone being a combo opener.

But sorry, wtf do I know? I'm just spreading 'misinformation'
Perhaps I should adopt your school of thinking, cause mine clearly fails. You may have lost respect for K&M or whatever, but I dont have to follow their little code of politeness, dont give me this passive aggressive bullshit for a list on the internet.

Lol. So saying I lost a little bit of respect for certain people for being so rude to everyone with a differing opinion, although I would remain a fan, and you call that "passive aggressive"? It's not the order of the list I disagreed with specifically I'm pretty open minded to different opinions, just the logic used to support it seems VERY contestable. You know, up until I read this last bit I thought you had given some much better logic supporting some of the decisions you guys came to, you didn't mention any of this in the video and there WAS misinformation, straight out, there is no two ways to describe it. Fuck else do you call it when you describe B33 as armour breaking, or B1 as not plus? They ARE these things, its misinformation to say otherwise because "you can take the last hit" and the B33 which still goes unexplained.

PND_Ketchup · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
So saying I lost a little bit of respect for certain people for being so rude to everyone with a differing opinion

If you followed Mustard and I closely, you'd know I won't sit and listen to people telling me I duck ESL/tournaments to commentate because I'm not good enough to win, just because Mileena is classed as "better than average" in our group tier list.

I will call moronic statements like that out. If people give me shit, I give shit back. I won't babystep around it. Followers of ours know this.

SaltShaker · Jan 3, 2016

Sometimes these things can be skewed by the characters you get the experience with as well.

For example, back in my Kano days Sub felt threatening, and I could only handle him with Cyber but it was still scary. I had no answer for his corner game. Nowadays with D'Vorah it is a hell of an easier MU. I look forward to him now. That's because she has twice as many options against his, blows up the clone free, and gives him a very difficult time. Where I would place Sub now could have changed from back then if i didn't fully think it through.

So sometimes people are arguing from the perspective of their character as well I believe.

PND_Mustard · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
Lol. So saying I lost a little bit of respect for certain people for being so rude to everyone with a differing opinion.

Can you please actually quote me on anything I said in this thread that was directly rude or disrespectful to someone? I've read through all 15 pages of replies and found nothing directly insulting or rude.

GQJ · Jan 3, 2016

A F0xy Grampa said:
First off I'll start with the Cassie explanation you wrote, which against alot of characters is totally wrong, the ONLY reason any Cassie could get a 'stagger mix up' while being -6, is due to the opponent letting them do it. Most characters have a way of stopping her doing anything else after that string, -6 is enough, she's pretty much limited to either blocking, or ex flipkicking, or spending the bar for ex gunshots.

For example, whats stopping a Mileena player from doing B12 every time they block Cassies B12?
See what I'm getting at here, biggest strength, biggest weakness, she has range but she gives up her turn to do it.

She may be + at the end of B124, but why would you even care about getting hit by the 4? Considering one of her problems is stamina, just take the 4 and she has to chase you again to stay in.

The 4 in that string is literally so neglegable.

Compare that to a string like Jax's F2, or Mileenas B12, or even Laos F2, I dont think theres any contest. Other strings have similar or the same range, and are advantage, or less negative AND give more damage. Perhaps reasons like these are the why we have different view points. Because mine actually work within the rules of the game, when played technically sound. There is no stagger.

And on the sub thing, he gets 40+ on both his overhead and low in the corner, I say 2 wrong guesses, becauase by the time you're cornered, you're gonna have lost some health already, and the remaining life usually doesnt have to come from a guess.

He may be minus after the shatter, but the pushback might as well make him neutral, because the space you have to cover to get to him, you're already sacrificing the frames you just got from blocking, I thought that was kinda obvious? You even commented on it... so again, its essentially a micro neutral game where he cant clone for a second, but if you want to get near him or out of the corner he still has multiple ways to keep you there.

The throw into clone isnt the best thing about his corner game, and it doesn't make it 'more than a 5050' because if youre gonna get thrown you always tech with 1. IMO the best thing about his corner game is the threat of it itself. You dont need to immediately use your clone set up on max damage. People get twitchy behind the clone, and thats usually a good way to kill them by punishing them for trying to do stupid shit.

But sorry, wtf do I know? I'm just spreading 'misinformation'
Perhaps I should adopt your school of thinking, cause mine clearly fails. You may have lost respect for K&M or whatever, but I dont have to follow their little code of politeness, dont give me this passive aggressive bullshit for a list on the internet.

And yeah, like Ketchup was saying, PLEASE find me a player with more Sub Zero experience than me.

Wouldn't the ability to stagger Cassie's B12 depend largely on the animations? Meaning if the opponent could confirm that B12 is the only thing that is coming, and the Cassie player would not be able to mitigate the blk disadvantage they had by fooling the opponent into thinking that they were going to hit the 4?

God Confirm · Jan 3, 2016

PND_Ketchup said:
There are different levels of discussion.

If an opinion is ended with "you don't have experience against these characters", which is a straight up incorrect statement, it will be corrected.

PND_Ketchup said:
But the "I play with x player" is only ever a reply to the statement of we don't have experience vs the character.

You're reading our replies and not the original comments being made by misinformed people.

Stop. You aren't even twisting words at this point, you are inventing them. My words exactly:

"Especially since you also don't have the most experience with the character, unless that word means something new now, I'm not up on all this forum's buzzwords."
"playing against madzin or any other character every day is still MUCH less experience than pretty much any random Sub-Zero, Mileena or Liu Kang main who actually play as said character for even longer everyday in both every single match up and all their labbing. Nevermind comparing your experience to someone like Tom Brady."

This stupid fallback of "experience" I didn't say anyone didn't have any, that would be ridiculous, I've seen f0xy play against one of the highest level Subs in the game. I just said he doesn't have the MOST experience, which would be just as ridiculous as he is a Lao main, how the hell can he call himself the most experienced at Sub / Mileena / Kang? I also didn't use this as something to drive my argument or suddenly call out people's lack of experience or some shit, I said it DIRECTLY IN RESPONSE TO a statement from the guy saying he is the most experienced at them in the entire world and using it to justify the placings, which is outlandish at the very least, and shows that the argument being used from your side WAS in fact what user "Rude" is saying it is, not just you correcting someone attacking you on your levels of experience or something

SneakyTortoise · Jan 3, 2016

Rude said:
Also, anecdotal evidence (like name-dropping) is not real evidence.

I'll say it again; anecdotal evidence is not real evidence.

If by this you were referring to the foxy/madzin thing it's not anecdotal that foxy/madzin train together a lot. That is a fact.

Also, it's not anecdotal that Madzin is one of (if not the) best sub zero in the world, there is evidence for it. All of this is completely relevant when discussing a character's tier list placement.

God Confirm · Jan 3, 2016

PND_Ketchup said:
If you followed Mustard and I closely, you'd know I won't sit and listen to people telling me I duck ESL/tournaments to commentate because I'm not good enough to win, just because Mileena is classed as "better than average" in our group tier list.

I will call moronic statements like that out. If people give me shit, I give shit back. I won't babystep around it. Followers of ours know this.

Just clarifying, are you mistaking me for something like that? Because I didn't say that if you think I did, I think you are an excellent player and you are one of my favourite commentators AND streamers, both your play is great and your banter. Or are you thinking I said what I did about you guys based on you defending yourself against such statements? Because that's also not it, it's more about the way you guys were cutting down people just for having a different opinion, and saying "its just an opinion" to defend your own statements against responses ALSO just an opinion

PND_Mustard said:
Can you please actually quote me on anything I said in this thread that was directly rude or disrespectful to someone? I've read through all 15 pages of replies and found nothing directly insulting or rude.

Didn't have to go further than the first page, you called someone a sheep for laughing at your mileena placing above Erron. All the way up to one page ago where you trolled me with a meme to try make me look stupid, for saying that f0xy doesn't have the MOST experience in the world with 3 different characters that he doesn't even play. Thats the kind of stuff that I thought you guys were above

Look I'm done with this argument I really don't want to keep arguing with you guys on a personal level because I really like and respect you both, I just disagree strongly with the tier list. I'd love to discuss the GAME more with you but I'm not interested in getting dragged in on a personal level sorry, I got too much respect for you guys for that, maybe I shouldn't have made my slightly personal comment to begin with, I was just a little disappointed with the way you guys approached counter arguments in this thread is all

PND_Mustard · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
First page, you called someone a sheep for laughing at your mileena placing above Erron, thats the kind of stuff that I thought you guys were above

I didn't say that.

PND_Ketchup · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
Didn't have to go further than the first page, you called someone a sheep for laughing at your mileena placing above Erron.

The reason why I responded the way I did is literally in this post right in front of you.

If someone is going to be smarmy and laugh at a placement the second the list goes live, instead of watching the video and listening to why Foxy and Glue think the way they do first, then I'm not going to be polite.

I will answer dumb posts with the same respect they give me.

Rude · Jan 3, 2016

SneakyTortoise said:
If by this you were referring to the foxy/madzin thing it's not anecdotal that foxy/madzin train together a lot. That is a fact.

Also, it's not anecdotal that Madzin is one of (if not the) best sub zero in the world, there is evidence for it. All of this is completely relevant when discussing a character's tier list placement.

Of course I know that they train together. At the end of the day, Madzin is still just one guy. One guy can only have so much knowledge and might not be representative of every thing that a character can do.

Put it in these terms: In other, bigger FGC communities, you have more than just one or two guys on the level of a Madzin or a Brady. You have several. So because you have a larger pool of players all at that level, more knowledge and information can be gained.

When Ketchup and Mustard pointed out that they talk about who they play with in response to allegations that they don't know certain characters, while those players may be the best known, they are not the sum of every single player that plays the character. Like I said - everyone is unknown until they're discovered.

It's more convincing of an argument - to me - to break down the tools and talk about the data rather than name-dropping your sparring partners. Doing the latter kills the discussion flat. No new understanding or knowledge can be shared or exchanged with that argument. More than likely, less than 5% of anyone reading this thread will ever actually play Madzin offline, so what does that add to the discussion?

It reads like shorthand for, "Just take my word for it."

Dankster Morgan · Jan 3, 2016

I think an "S-" tier would be appropriate for characters like Sub, Cage, and D'Vorah. They're better than say Takeda, but it's hard to picture them as good as say, Tremor. Is S- even a thing? Am I a moron for thinking this?

God Confirm · Jan 3, 2016

PND_Ketchup said:
The reason why I responded the way I did is literally in this post right in front of you.

If someone is going to be smarmy and laugh at a placement the second the list goes live, instead of watching the video and listening to why Foxy and Glue think the way they do first, then I'm not going to be polite.

I will answer dumb posts with the same respect they give me.

Ok maybe it was dumb of me but I was late to thread , I took the time out to check the video for placings I was surprised about and I assumed others had done the same. I apologize for my quick judgements in here, and I admit I haven't read the entire thread, however I did see a lot of discounting peoples opinions just because they don't have the same experience or just because its an "opinion" which isn't very good way to discuss a topic! You guys are still tops in my book though, I take back what I said

Baconlord said:
I've been playing mileena since day 1 and I agree with everything they said about her. You don't have to main the character to understand them. And last time I checked Tom said he was top 5.

Thats kinda mine and other peoples entire point, you don't have to main a character for your opinion to be correct on them, so when people say "I play this character/against this character the most so my opinion is correct" its not really a very solid argument. Holding even less weight is the claim that you have the most experience with a character especially when you absolutely do not, its just a false thing to say about a character you don't even play, not that it would matter if you did because you could very still be wrong on all accounts. Let's let strength of logic be the factor on which we judge a statements worth shall we, instead of just needlessly overruling it with the anecdotal contests of who has the most raw hours sunk in? "Experience" really isn't a factor that should come up in debate, it can't really be discussed and it doesn't make a statement any more logical, statements should speak for themselves irrelevant to who it is typing them. And if they don't, well, I guess it isn't a very strong point of view.

PND_Ketchup · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
Ok maybe it was dumb of me but I was late to thread , I took the time out to check the video for placings I was surprised about and I assumed others had done the same. I apologize for my quick judgements in here, and I admit I haven't read the entire thread

That's my point though, nobody has done that. Everyone has read replies from other people and have made assumptions without reading everything or just doing their homework in general.

If people want to have beef with me, it's fine. but I would rather they have all of the information first before making judgements.

God Confirm · Jan 3, 2016

PND_Ketchup said:
That's my point though, nobody has done that. Everyone has read replies from other people and have made assumptions without reading everything or just doing their homework in general.

If people want to have beef with me, it's fine. but I would rather they have all of the information first before making judgements.

Ok I certainly don't want no beefs so I'm just gunna keep on apologizing till you and I can get past this my man

PND_Ketchup · Jan 3, 2016

God Confirm said:
Ok I certainly don't want no beefs so I'm just gunna keep on apologizing till you and I can get past this my man

No hard feelings mate.

SaltShaker · Jan 3, 2016

Dankster Morgan said:
I think an "S-" tier would be appropriate for characters like Sub, Cage, and D'Vorah. They're better than say Takeda, but it's hard to picture them as good as say, Tremor. Is S- even a thing? Am I a moron for thinking this?

You have the right idea, but I think it should only be one S Tier. A+, A, and A- etc should follow with C the possible lowest for this game. I don't know what is going on in the new era, but S Tier is supposed to be reserved for game dominating characters. Characters with no weaknesses that don't lose to anyone. Kabal types. S+ would be actual broken characters like Tekken 4 Jin. The way the tier list are done today is very different.

The only S Tier characters I would place there are Lao and Liu. Then A+ would be next. They are the only ones who either win MUs or just don't lose any, can answer anything, and have no weaknesses. But that would cause even more controversy because how dare I say Quan is not the best lol.

End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

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