End of 2015 MKX Tier list - UK Edition

Yes exactly what we need. Another tier list so everyone can have the same arguments from last week, and the week before, and the week before that, and

Cassie should be S+

@PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard I don't what your experience is with Jacqui other than your labbing and short stint. Saying her mobility is BAD because her normals are somewhat slow or lack in range is a weird way of looking at it. she has some of the best walk back AND forward speed, a decent backdash and a air cancel that she basically instantly recovers on when she lands. In full auto she has low rocket, up rocket and guns that help her in the footsie game where she lacks in normals. In shotgun she's got the low shot which is also a strong addition to footsies. As for her normals, they arent as bad as you guys are selling. s4 is an 8 frame mid, and yes it gets low profiled by some pokes (which is frustrating) but with all of Jacqui's + frames, it's pretty scary. f1 and f2 are slow, but have decent range. f12 is neutral and jails into guns in Full auto, the OH is un reactable and safe and leads to massive dmg or a bunch of + frames (Full auto again). Her D3, although lacking in range, low profiles and is -3 (i think) it is also 8 frames. She's got a 6 frame jab into the a very hit confirmable string that she can combo in all 3 variations. Stanky leg (the famous 4u4) is a very very underrated normal that does a ton of different things. anti air, counterpoke, good neutral tool, combo extender, gives + frames on block. I'm not here saying that she's some high tier monster, but she can definitely get her game going, way more than i feel you guys are giving her credit for.

Earlier today, I posted in the Mileena board that that community was one of the best for several reasons, but some of the actions here by members of that community are making me a sad panda.

It's a tier list, one that the creators have stated is clearly their opinion and their opinion only. If you disagree with said opinion, that's cool, but no need to go to such extreme written rage over it.

This is a video game, after all. Again, it's _a game_.

@PND_Ketchup and co.: Nice list, and thanks for putting it together, and also the video. As a Mileena player, I'm not sure I completely agree with her placement, but I have always felt people bandwagon hopped too much in their opinions about her.

It's nice to see her get some love, and perhaps her placement on said list may inspire others to give her a whirl and maybe we'll see more of her.

What the fuck were these guys smoking when then made this list. Jesus, is this some sort of sick joke. Worst tier list to date.

I don't think some of you guys understand what an opinion is -- having an opinion means that you can say whatever you want and everyone has to accept it without critique.

BillStickers said:

I don't think some of you guys understand what an opinion is -- having an opinion means that you can say whatever you want and everyone has to accept it without critique.

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No, not without critique, but there's a difference between critiquing someone and having a tantrum at them.

Basic social skills and all that.

The internet, where people personally insult you because you said that there's a chance that a character they like playing in a videogame is better than people think.

TackyHaddock said:

Out of curiosity, do you and mustard have specific plans in the event that there is no ESL season 3? are there other similar commentating opportunities out there?

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We've been able to cast other games during our time with MKX.

Casting isn't a one game thing.

I don't agree on Mileena but that's me.

It's always hard to get a 'definitive' tier list because people all have different perspectives. For instance, I think Goro is A-tier, but that's because I'm not playing at high tournament level. When you do get to that kind of level, people generally know the matchup and are able to punish things you'd get away with in lower level play. As such, a lot of seemingly good stuff gets dealt with in high level play.

Back to the tier list, I'd put Cassie in S+ (partly because of salt) and Mileena in A-tier. I'm not fully convinced yet that Mileena is A+, maybe there's some play that can change my mind. Besides that, I agree with all placements (SaltShaker before you sue me read my tag thingy).

YOMI MITYEAP said:

I will start with king jin, who has a tool for like every situation. Me and Slayer (two of the only kjs still at events) both believe at worst he is like 13th, so I believe he is too low. His footsies, safety, pressure, conversion capability, and etc. are too good to be that low imo @PND_Ketchup

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I of course respect your opinion on Kung Jin as you house the best KJ player there is. I personally think a big part of slayer doing well with JJ is the fact he's a superb player in general and is making a average/above average character work.

The same way Sonicfox was the only player doing anything with Erron Black for a long time. It's not necessarily the character, it's the fact the player is making them work whilst others fail to do so. Even sonicfox has said on Twitter that he feels EB is dragging him down compared to his other characters.

TheRealOnlyGoonie said:

What the fuck were these guys smoking when then made this list. Jesus, is this some sort of sick joke. Worst tier list to date.

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"These guys online said a character i don't think is good is good"

"WOPJPOJFIUEIUJEBFIUDBHIUGFBUIDFHOUFGDSJKFSNBFUYDGFJDSHFASUIJFG8UY!!!!!!"

PND_Ketchup said:

"These guys online said a character i don't think is good is good"

"WOPJPOJFIUEIUJEBFIUDBHIUGFBUIDFHOUFGDSJKFSNBFUYDGFJDSHFASUIJFG8UY!!!!!!"

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Jesus man, are you alright?

When I first picked up the game, I felt Mileena was indeed amongst bottom 5. Not horrible, but lacking in various fields. Then, the more I understood the meta, the matchups and the character herself, I felt that she wasn't anywhere near bottom 5. Now having understood her play, optimized combos, OKI, and how to actually set the pace in every MU, I find it really hard NOT to see her where @PND_Ketchup placed her.

Again, the fixes ARE truly needed, but this too, is what's pretty crazy about it. She's still where she is DESPITE these needed fixes.

Akromaniac27 said:

When I first picked up the game, I felt Mileena was indeed amongst bottom 5. Not horrible, but lacking in various fields. Then, the more I understood the meta, the matchups and the character herself, I felt that she wasn't anywhere near bottom 5. Now having understood her play, optimized combos, OKI, and how to actually set the pace in every MU, I find it really hard NOT to see her where @PND_Ketchup placed her.

Again, the fixes ARE truly needed, but this too, is what's pretty crazy about it. She's still where she is DESPITE these needed fixes.

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And you've been doing some great work with her. Thanks for your guides and posts in the boards; most helpful!

Ns_Brutalmileena said:

Guess all of the Mileena community's big time down players lol! If you guys think Mileena is better then Erron black and countless others, as huge fans of yours I'm totally done.... Call me what you want its basic as hell to see her short coming compared to these characters. Know ones saying she's bad, but Jesus upplay more swiss cheese strings, unsafe as fuck, bad pokes, and meter for over head. You are the sheeps if you can't watch saltface, gab, and used for glue as much as I love them get away with murder. Let's hold her back cause you TOP players can't punish basic shit.

Like I said WATCH there way to the top, and WATCH the crimes they get away with I'm done don't expect a reply.

Count sonics unpunished tele kicks and rolls its a fucking joke

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I'm with PND on this actually. She has her bad MU'S sure, that's why we have secondaries. She's more about capitalizing on conditioning rather than straight up rushdown 5050.

@PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard

PND_Mustard said:

The internet, where people personally insult you because you said that there's a chance that a character they like playing in a videogame is better than people think.

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Yeah, just like your brother called me a "sheep" just because I disagreed with this tier list EVEN THOUGH I haven't offended anyone. I have nothing against you guys.

Aqueous_Echo said:

I'm with PND on this actually. She has her bad MU'S sure, that's why we have secondaries. She's more about capitalizing on conditioning rather than straight up rushdown 5050.

@PND_Ketchup @PND_Mustard

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For me, her only TRUE bad(ambiguous) MU is against Flame Fist Kang because of the parry and overall safeness. The rest, she either goes even or wins the MU. Like F0xy was saying, she's ONLY as unsafe as the player makes her out to be. This mainly goes for Piercing, but you can kinda apply it to Ethereal. That variation's problem though is its meter dependence and giving up the range, mixups, additional zoning, meterless OKI, and plus frames that Piercing provides.

@PND_Mustard @PND_Ketchup From seeing the many responses regarding both sides of the Mileena placement, the issue might just be that a few characters listed below her especially Sonya, Jin and Erron Black are a tier below her which has rustled many jimmies.

The placement argument might be people looking at tools only or MUs only. I personally don't know right now so probably gonna have a sleepless night thinking about this.

Akromaniac27 said:

For me, her only TRUE bad MU is against Flame Fist Kang because of the parry and overall safeness. The rest, she either goes even or wins the MU.

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Why only FF Liu and not Dragon's Fire as well?

I like the list, and a lot of the positions I really feel people are sleeping on.

DF Kang is stupid, but America generally doesn't see that because our most watched Kang has been using only FF until recently, and I don't even think another Kang has even had a breakout performance over here. There's a huge reason I have no idea why @YOMI REO isn't using him lol.

PND_Ketchup said:

I of course respect your opinion on Kung Jin as you house the best KJ player there is. I personally think a big part of slayer doing well with JJ is the fact he's a superb player in general and is making a average/above average character work.

The same way Sonicfox was the only player doing anything with Erron Black for a long time. It's not necessarily the character, it's the fact the player is making them work whilst others fail to do so. Even sonicfox has said on Twitter that he feels EB is dragging him down compared to his other characters.

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I can respect this opinion but tool wise KJ has pretty much everything needed to win vs the whole cast imo. I think vs the top tiers (lao, quan, Tanya, etc.) He either goes 5 5 or loses only 6 4 to all of them. I find it hard for a character who does that to be like bottom 10 in the game. I say A+ at worst for him.

Also key fact, shaolin KJ has two armor moves that are safe on block (ex OH cartwheel and ex up kick).

TheGabStandard said:

Why only FF Liu and not Dragon's Fire as well?

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Mainly because we CAN get out of it on the right read. Its still incredibly stupid AF, but without his zoning being what it is in FF, she can keep him out, stall him with b12 and the roll/EXroll either gets blocked or hits him, unlike the parry where he gets to just keep patching his holes at will. I still need to run it more, and I'm not denying it isn't an easy MU, but it really doesn't feel like she loses it.