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Question Is it more character or player?

ExoticAbuse

ExoticAbuse

★Two Hands★
I think it widely depends on the character and the player since some characters are extremely brain-dead to the point that it's 80%-90% character and very little the player.
 
aldazo

aldazo

Waiting for Havik
Schuyler said:
Before answering have any of the best players in MKX made a top 8 with a bottom tier character. The only one I can think of is salt face and when was the last time he made one ? No disrespect to anyone just saying you need good tools to be great for most people.
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REO's Jason?
 
ZeroEffect

ZeroEffect

Noob
Here's a question: What do most people define as "the highest level of play"? (I don't think we've seen the highest level for this game yet.)

But take into consideration that, experience plays a huge part in this. If you're a top player and you end up playing the same handful of top players for a long stretch of time, (casuals, tourneys, majors, top 8s), you start to build your entire gameplan off of their habits. You start making decisions that don't make sense to outsiders. Why? Because you're no longer playing your usual gameplan. You're so familiar with each other that you're starting on Plan B or C. Once you get to that stage, it's almost literally a guessing game to see who makes the biggest mistake first.

If you play a character who is low risk/high reward, at this highest level, there's no way you CAN'T be carr-- err... "assisted" by your character if you're facing someone of similar skill with less options. Especially in THIS game. Momentum shifts in MKX are so severe. Skill is always apparent, but no amount of skill can create options where they don't already exist.
 
Slips

Slips

Feared by dragons. Desired by virgins.
Pig Of The Hut said:
You know what's awesome is I'm reading this thread imagine how all those Stryker, Baraka, joker, green arrow, Sheeva and goro players and I hope they realize they're missing success only by 20% and its 80% their fault lol
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Yea. To me it's not hard to win with any character until you get to players that are at the full 70% or close to it. There's 3 things you have ask yourself and feel confident in before you can start complaining about your character.

a) Am I playing my character the best they can be?
b) Am I playing the matchup the best I can be?
c) Am I playing MKX fundamentally as a whole the best I can be?

I think there was only one time in MKX where I thought maybe it was Scorpion's fault I couldn't win as much as I wanted to. That was against @Red Raptor literally the last session who I've played over 1000 matches and I was finally starting to run out of ideas. Even still it could've just been too long of a grind session and I had salted out.

If you can't answer those questions with the upmost certainty then you can't blame the character. One breakthrough in your own character knowledge, matchup, or fundamentals can have a ripple effect that changes everything. So I have little sympathy for anyone no matter what character they play with because not even I can answer the above questions with 100% certainty.
 
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Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
Slips said:
Yea. To me it's not hard to win with any character until you get to players that are at the full 70% or close to it. There's 3 things you have ask yourself and feel confident in before you can start complaining about your character.

a) Am I playing my character the best they can be?
b) Am are playing the matchup the best I can be?
c) Am I playing MKX fundamentally as a whole the best I can be?

I think there was only one time in MKX where I thought maybe it was Scorpion's fault I couldn't win as much as I wanted to. That was against @Red Raptor literally the last session who I've played over 1000 matches and I was finally starting to run out of ideas. Even still it could've just been too long of a grind session and I had salted out.

If you can't answer those questions with the upmost certainty then you can't blame the character. One breakthrough in your own character knowledge, matchup, or fundamentals can have a ripple effect that changes everything. So I have little sympathy for anyone no matter what character they play with because not even I can answer the above questions with 100% certainty.
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As a sidenote, I think that godlike players also have a tendancy to have more flexibility in their character choices.

There's that top Dan player Ixion from Europe, and the level he manages to compete at with Dan in SF4 is just stupendous. Justin Wong won MVC3 at Evo with Storm on his team, a character that literally no other top player in the world uses... he's the only one who could play her at that level. I even think back to JOP and his godlike TTT Jack team.

Come to think of it, didn't you win a Ghost Battle back in the heart of Injustice using nothing but frigging Cyborg? I'm fairly sure I remember that happening. It really takes a certain level of player to show the true power of a low tier/underused character, and it's something a lot of even very good players can't do. Understanding that Low Tier Char X has tools Y and Z that make them theoretically viable is definitely different than actually being able to win anything with them haha.

My two cents, anyways!
 
Diego de Souza Costa

Diego de Souza Costa

***The Soul Consuming Darkness***
Tweedy said:
Do it. I'll bet money that especially with your knowledge, it'll be a year before you're competing at a semi-respectable level with Kung Lao.
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Diego the 2017 EVO champ, beating SonicFox with Lao, by only using two strings... 11212 and 112124.... HYPE AF !!!

 
IROC

IROC

WP IROC
Pig makes a very good point. Which is why im using him as an example. Mk9 pig with kenshi..then there is Mkx pig with kenshi. Character is far more than 20%.
 
L

lilyunggrabbagjr

Noob
TackyHaddock said:
Its gotta be at least 90% player. As an example, I could practice Summoner Quan or Kobu Tanya 12 hours a day every day for a year, and I guarantee Sonic Fox could pick up unstoppable Jason for the first time, practice for 10 minutes and body me 10-0.
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I guarantee you wouldnt lose even to sonic fox if you practiced kobu tanya for at least a month vs a years worth of unstoppable jason
 
TheGoldenJew

TheGoldenJew

PSN: The_Golden_Jew1
Slips said:
Yea. To me it's not hard to win with any character until you get to players that are at the full 70% or close to it. There's 3 things you have ask yourself and feel confident in before you can start complaining about your character.

a) Am I playing my character the best they can be?
b) Am I playing the matchup the best I can be?
c) Am I playing MKX fundamentally as a whole the best I can be?

I think there was only one time in MKX where I thought maybe it was Scorpion's fault I couldn't win as much as I wanted to. That was against @Red Raptor literally the last session who I've played over 1000 matches and I was finally starting to run out of ideas. Even still it could've just been too long of a grind session and I had salted out.

If you can't answer those questions with the upmost certainty then you can't blame the character. One breakthrough in your own character knowledge, matchup, or fundamentals can have a ripple effect that changes everything. So I have little sympathy for anyone no matter what character they play with because not even I can answer the above questions with 100% certainty.
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Whos @Red Raptor ???
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
IROCmySCORPION said:
Pig makes a very good point. Which is why im using him as an example. Mk9 pig with kenshi..then there is Mkx pig with kenshi. Character is far more than 20%.
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Pig also had a lot more time to learn mk9 in comparison to mkx, and like slips said, there's no way that any player currently is:

Playing mkx 100% fundamentally correct.
Playing every match up 100% correct.
Playing his character 100% correct.

But then you could argue that it depends on the game itself. MK9 was way more imbalanced than MKX, so you even saw people get carried more by certain characters, that or some people click better with the fundamental mechanics of one game other another.
 
Ns_Brutalmileena

Ns_Brutalmileena

Wheres Mileener!BRUH
ZeroEffect said:
Here's a question: What do most people define as "the highest level of play"? (I don't think we've seen the highest level for this game yet.)

But take into consideration that, experience plays a huge part in this. If you're a top player and you end up playing the same handful of top players for a long stretch of time, (casuals, tourneys, majors, top 8s), you start to build your entire gameplan off of their habits. You start making decisions that don't make sense to outsiders. Why? Because you're no longer playing your usual gameplan. You're so familiar with each other that you're starting on Plan B or C. Once you get to that stage, it's almost literally a guessing game to see who makes the biggest mistake first.

If you play a character who is low risk/high reward, at this highest level, there's no way you CAN'T be carr-- err... "assisted" by your character if you're facing someone of similar skill with less options. Especially in THIS game. Momentum shifts in MKX are so severe. Skill is always apparent, but no amount of skill can create options where they don't already exist.
Click to expand...
This is the most logical thing I've heard so far, well said dude. I was typing something very similar, great read.
 
Harlequin969

Harlequin969

Always press buttons
Another thing to factor in is the skill ceiling to a character. Does the player have the ability to play the character to their maximum ability? Comparing Dragon or Dabs dragon to some rando isn't the same. Hell Foxy, PL, King and Slayer are all amazing players and yet all play very different forms of Tempest Lao.

I'd argue it's 60/40 Player/Character. The character needs to have the tools to be strong and the player needs to have the knowledge to bring out that strength.

Case and point: Remember when Reptile was in need of help pre evo and than Milky made top 8?
 
Darth-Nero

Darth-Nero

Come Thunder! Come Lightning!
It's all about the character and the mastery level it takes, You don't have to have mad skills to pickup someone like Shinnok and dominate with him since he has no mastery, takes zero skills to learn and have no losing mu. Contrary to Lao who also doesn't have a losing mu but takes a lot of skills to master in order to dominate with.

Some characters are brain dead while others have to work harder and have higher combo drop rate, this is where practice and experience come in play. It's just practice combos into your muscle memory and earn experience through learning matchups, the rest is just luck, reflexes and a little bit of strategy.

Bottom line is that an easy S-tier character in the hands of an average player will always beat a mid/low-tier character in the hands of a pro. most recent example of that is the last cR Dragon vs Madzin match (even though i don't really recognize Madzin as a pro)

I'd say the ratio is 65% character 35% skills.
 
Skkra

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
FL Rushdown said:
Honestly I feel like Dan gets bad rap. He's not good, but he's not the worst character in SF. Those knees....
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I actually agree here, but I think my Ixion example is still valid. Considering the level of talent required to do as well as he has, I imagine that if he suddenly picked a character with a large, complete toolset, he would possibly have shown himself to a serious top contender.
 
Crathen

Crathen

Death is my business
So many factors to count in but summing it up i think it's 60% player and 40% character , the 60% player has A LOT of stuff to do with matchup knowledge , your knowledge about the character and the fundamental core aspects of MKX like the risk / reward , how to play the neutral and how to adapt to certain situations so even if it sounds like "giving too little credit" it's not , that 60% is a huge amount of skill to reach before being able to give play like that.

40% character because you can be playing a character that does play MKX to the fullest and win vs players that could surpass you in the skill department but end up using a worse character ( or a bad matchup ) , there are characters like say Tanya Kobu that requires minimal effort and some meta 1 and 2 mindgames to be actually a "threat" when playing a ft2 or even a ft3 , then there are characters like KL where you've got to put in time to know when to do this option #1 and when to do the option #4 in this situation let's say in the neutral , the character has plenty of options but when using them requires a highly skilled player so to be a "threat" with Kung Lao you need to also be a "good" player , then there are characters like Jason that no matter how skilled you are you're gonna have a bad time with multiple bad matchups where your tools have bad risk reward and to win it's an uphill battle all the time.
 
ZigZag

ZigZag

That Welsh Guy
If you are within those group of people who think it's more character than player in this game i've got news for you...
 
Qwark28

Qwark28

Joker waiting room
Crathen said:
So many factors to count in but summing it up i think it's 60% player and 40% character , the 60% player has A LOT of stuff to do with matchup knowledge , your knowledge about the character and the fundamental core aspects of MKX like the risk / reward , how to play the neutral and how to adapt to certain situations so even if it sounds like "giving too little credit" it's not , that 60% is a huge amount of skill to reach before being able to give play like that.

40% character because you can be playing a character that does play MKX to the fullest and win vs players that could surpass you in the skill department but end up using a worse character ( or a bad matchup ) , there are characters like say Tanya Kobu that requires minimal effort and some meta 1 and 2 mindgames to be actually a "threat" when playing a ft2 or even a ft3 , then there are characters like KL where you've got to put in time to know when to do this option #1 and when to do the option #4 in this situation let's say in the neutral , the character has plenty of options but when using them requires a highly skilled player so to be a "threat" with Kung Lao you need to also be a "good" player , then there are characters like Jason that no matter how skilled you are you're gonna have a bad time with multiple bad matchups where your tools have bad risk reward and to win it's an uphill battle all the time.
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@Hidan
 
Salad Petresky

Salad Petresky

Noob
Character matters when one is on a very high level. Lets say a player plays a mid tier character vs a player play the best character with equal skill. In order to win you have to beat about 13-16 players (so in this case lets say 14)

Lets say the mid tier character has 25% bad match up, 50% 5-5, 25% good MU

Lets say the mid tier player (who is godlike) has a chance to win 7 out of 3 in bad MU, 9 out of 1 in 5-5, and 10 out of 0 in good match up.
So in the tournament he has to play about 3 bad match up, 7 5-5 match up, and 4 good match up.

The % of winning is about 20% (70%^3 * 90%^3 * 100%^3)




top tier has 50% 5-5, and 50% good matchup (which is common in top tier)
Lets say the top tier player (who is also godlike and equal skill) has a chance to win 9 out of 1 in 5-5, and 10 out of 0 in good match up.

The % of winning is about 35% (90%^7 * 100%^7)

So character will give you about 15% in this case, since a good player can also lose to a player with lessor skill there is always a probability that you can be eliminated. Nothing is ever 100%.

15% means that out of 20 tournaments, the top tier player would get about 7 trophies while the mid tier player only has 4. Thats a significant figure just due to character change.

Note: this is just based on objective stand point, in the real world there of course are more consideration (player match up, probability per tournament round, probability of getting a good bracket, ect)
 
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