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Question - Kotal Kahn Good defense separates top players from the rest

Geoffmeister

PS4/EU Ermac main
I agree with the message, if you practiced enough so you can fuzzy and punish everything.
Although in MKX your defense can be best there is but that doesn't mean you'll be able to compete with every single character, there's many characters that benefit off your opponent blocking. Build bar, spend meter on +frames or a mixup, rinse and repeat.
If you can't fuzzy it or don't do it perfectly 100% of the time a character with the best meter synergy (safe mid/mixup pressure into +frames after mixups or armored reversals or creating 50/50's during strings) will make your defense obsolete. From my experience, offense is rewarding and defense (blocking) is not, latest patch made sure of that.
 
Gotta say, people seriously overestimate a player's reactions in just about every FG. A human being can only "react" but so fast. If someone appears to be "blocking everything" they're usually making reads on something, or are subconciously feeling out a rhythm of when their opponent wants to go low/OH or whatever the mixup is.

I could name a bunch of instances where "reactable" moves landed against the best players in big tourneys, lol.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
We've all seen matches at all levels end in 20 seconds. Whole sets end in 40 seconds. I think the thing that separates the usual top 8s from everyone else is a better ability to start whatever BS their character can throw out. Now that could entail different things coming into play. Better poking and neutral game. Maybe they are so in tune on offense that once they get momentum they mixup and block armor like they were controlling their opponent. Maybe they go with the safe low a dozen times but on the 13th they use the overhead (that's probably also safe). Even Predator got to make a semi skillful read with an up shot.

I think the best in MKx are best at utilizing whatever offense their character has the best and are also good at recognizing the ways their opponent's are getting opened up.
 

Nuovo_Cabjoy

G O R O B O Y S
@Cabjoy
Thoughts?
Swear this is the truth. In a game full of dirt, being able to avoid dirt is the most consistent style of play.
Yeah I'm inclined to agree man. Defense can be hard to establish in this game, but if you do it picks your game up immensely. I think more so in MKX than other fighters you have to make as many reads when defending as you do when applying pressure. Conventional spacing only gets you so far, so when you're forced to block someones offense it becomes a game of:
- What's their frame data after that string?
- What are their possible follow ups?
- Can they armour?
- Can I armour?
- What's the risk/reward if I counterpoke as opposed to walk back for spacing?
- Are they going to throw?
- Do I need to block because of fast mids after a barely negative string?
- Or can I reliably neutral duck to avoid pressure from highs + the throw?"

I think this is the reason players like the YOMI guys get so far (especially when they're using characters they haven't even got optimised bnbs for). They play the game enough to develop great reads to defend against peoples offense, which is huge if you can build a consistent defense in this game.

I think you have the best defense in Aus btw, so I think you'll have more to say about this than I can properly articulate haha. Weigh in, brother.
 

Skkra

PSN: Skkra
A favorite baseball quote of mine from Casey Stengel is good pitching will always stop good hitting, and vice-versa.

While I don't think this is quite true for MKX, there's no doubt that the best players find ways to either mitigate offense using their character's defensive options, or to avoid being put in bad situations in the first place.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
A favorite baseball quote of mine from Casey Stengel is good pitching will always stop good hitting, and vice-versa.

While I don't think this is quite true for MKX, there's no doubt that the best players find ways to either mitigate offense using their character's defensive options, or to avoid being put in bad situations in the first place.
Maybe it's just me but I feel like defense in this game just feels like ways to start your offense. By that I mean no one plays for a nuetral position and chips at their opponent. It's either 5 characters try to get full screen to spew projectiles or everyone else gets in your face pressing buttons until one eventually hits. Which makes me go back to my point about the best being able to push their character's game plan the best.

So if someone uses a defensive option it's to score damage and a set up. Pokes lead to pressure (or sometimes getting pressured if they're blocked), armor starts combos or at least scores you knockdown time, AA gives combos, backdash to take advantage of the horrid whiff recovery on strings. Nothing seems to be defensive just to be defensive.

And if someone is avoiding a bad situation, they probably either break a combo or are doing their own unfavorable situation on their opponent.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
A favorite baseball quote of mine from Casey Stengel is good pitching will always stop good hitting, and vice-versa.

While I don't think this is quite true for MKX, there's no doubt that the best players find ways to either mitigate offense using their character's defensive options, or to avoid being put in bad situations in the first place.
That's correct, but I think a more accurate parallel would be players using offense to stop other players getting their offense going
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Maybe it's just me but I feel like defense in this game just feels like ways to start your offense. By that I mean no one plays for a nuetral position and chips at their opponent. It's either 5 characters try to get full screen to spew projectiles or everyone else gets in your face pressing buttons until one eventually hits. Which makes me go back to my point about the best being able to push their character's game plan the best.

So if someone uses a defensive option it's to score damage and a set up. Pokes lead to pressure (or sometimes getting pressured if they're blocked), armor starts combos or at least scores you knockdown time, AA gives combos, backdash to take advantage of the horrid whiff recovery on strings. Nothing seems to be defensive just to be defensive.

And if someone is avoiding a bad situation, they probably either break a combo or are doing their own unfavorable situation on their opponent.
Very true, but isn't this the nature of defence in every game? What is the point of a defensively play if it is just delaying into more defensive play and never getting any offense going? I can't think of any game you can win by playing purely defensively other than maybe MtG
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Very true, but isn't this the nature of defence in every game? What is the point of a defensively play if it is just delaying into more defensive play and never getting any offense going? You can't win many games by playing purely defensively.
I don't know exactly how to word this correctly but . . .

Armor moves don't have to lead to full bnb damage. Hell, none of them have to combo. It just the way NRS designed it.

Instead of say reacting to a whiffed poke and getting a poke plus more in damage. You're reward would be your characters main gameplan. We've all seen it where someone looks like they're about to lose but then they get that one lucky break and then 100-0 their opponent like what was just happening to them. There isn't a lot of situation reset in this game. Breakers, which could be a situation reset like how I think they were in injustice, you are basically a sitting duck and have to play harder than ever without actually being able to play MKx.

Trying to avoid game comparisons lol. But in other games it's possible a person makes a correct defensive play and just continues to do that to win. It's not them being constantly in danger but in reality they pretty much controlled the match without bullying their opponent into submission.

I think this is part of the reason for the lack of timeouts or even low timer matches.
 

Doombawkz

Trust me, I'm a doctor
One simply has to ask themselves:

Does the win come from ones ability to take advantage of an opprotunity,
Does the win come from ones ability to create an opprotunity
 

Hidan

Where the hell is Reiko's wheel kick
mkx creates situations where you don't have any other option but block. Some characters are made to win because their opponent blocks. In a way, blocking means you have lost a certain phase in the round. Now your opp will build some bar and if he feels comfortable, some more.

If you had choices like
1) backdash without stamina
2) throw being your fastest move
3) invicibility frames without bars

blocking would separate you as a player because you cast the above aside, took a "risk" and chose to face the mixup in order to punish something
 

Juggs

Lose without excuses
Lead Moderator
Pfft, how in the hell does blocking all day separate top players from the rest? What a joke.

#ScrubQuotes
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
It's not defense that makes a good player.
It's defense and everything else, too.

It's like saying it's the sauce that makes Pizza good.
Yeah, defense is important, but it's one set of things - besides, footsies also make a good player and that is so much offense as defense.
 

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
Pfft, how in the hell does blocking all day separate top players from the rest? What a joke.

#ScrubQuotes
??? Blocking "all day" was not a concept included in the post. I spoke only of key blocks (and general ability to make key blocks) within matches.

I'll remain open to the possibility that you were just trolling tho, or being sarcastic
 

TackyHaddock

Salty Mashers Krew
It's not defense that makes a good player.
It's defense and everything else, too.

It's like saying it's the sauce that makes Pizza good.
Yeah, defense is important, but it's one set of things - besides, footsies also make a good player and that is so much offense as defense.
Your argument boils down to "everything matters" which of course is no argument at all. I never said ONLY defense matters. It is an attribute of gameplay that a smaller percentage of players master.
 

GLoRToR

Positive Poster!
It is an attribute of gameplay that a smaller percentage of players master.
That can be said about anything; my argument is that good players aren't good because of ONE SET of skills, but the amalgamation of all that's required.
Think of it as weak points and strong points.
Not-so-good players may have better defense than offense too, it doesn't make them a BetterNotSoGoodPlayer than those NotSoGoodPlayers whose Offense is better.
 

Gilbagz

Joker here~
Yeah I'm inclined to agree man. Defense can be hard to establish in this game, but if you do it picks your game up immensely. I think more so in MKX than other fighters you have to make as many reads when defending as you do when applying pressure. Conventional spacing only gets you so far, so when you're forced to block someones offense it becomes a game of:
- What's their frame data after that string?
- What are their possible follow ups?
- Can they armour?
- Can I armour?
- What's the risk/reward if I counterpoke as opposed to walk back for spacing?
- Are they going to throw?
- Do I need to block because of fast mids after a barely negative string?
- Or can I reliably neutral duck to avoid pressure from highs + the throw?"

I think this is the reason players like the YOMI guys get so far (especially when they're using characters they haven't even got optimised bnbs for). They play the game enough to develop great reads to defend against peoples offense, which is huge if you can build a consistent defense in this game.

I think you have the best defense in Aus btw, so I think you'll have more to say about this than I can properly articulate haha. Weigh in, brother.
Lol had good defense in IGAU maybe. SXC highlighted a lot of holes in my game.
I know what I got to work on now.
But yeah you hit the nail on the head, good defence lets you play a much safer reactionary style game. Doesn't work against some characters in particular, but in those situations generally throw caution to the wind in terms of risk reward. [Only character who seems to break this trend right now is Cassie, after playing nader's jesus christ this character is ridiculously good]
Having good defence just means less risks on your part and you can just play off the momentum you get from punishes.
Yeah you can't react to some 50/50s, but good defence also entails knowing your spacing and ranges to avoid the 50/50 situation in the first place.
 

shura30

Shura
I understand how most characters work better than most understand their own mains just for the purpose of knowing what to exploit against them.
I believe the answer to this thread is embededd in foxy's words


the "mk is heavy rushdown game" excuse is just a meme thrown out by players that won't remember opponent's strings and hit levels so they get hit all the time blaming other things (pseudos aside, obviously)
in every single fighting game, if you succumb to the opponent's tools, you have lost the round/match, why should this be different in mkx?
so, knowing your opponent's character you will always have a general idea on what to expect to try and react accordingly. Also, players nowadays have tons of footage around showing their patterns and habits.

what separates the good players from the rest is a deep knowledge of the game tied to good execution and fast reactions
 

Lokheit

Noob
It's why I hate online. Theres no way to play a good defense, attempting to react to anything will get you blown up. The game is 100% offense online, as it's mostly whoever is pressing the most buttons wins. Anyone who has played an online cryomancer sub knows what I mean.
Are you saying that Cryomancer is better or worse online? I didn't get it right from the phrasing.

Cryomancer is one of the characters that underperforms the most online, his whole game is based on making reads and punishing without any tool like his other variations. He doesn't posses any kind of pressure as his strings aren't fast enough for that and don't have block advantage to keep pressing buttons, he will get eaten alive in a poke battle and his mixup is one of the few that is slow enough to be read and reacted online.

He has damaging combos but very few ways to get them. Without the ability to properly punish, which online removes, Cryomancer underperforms compared with offline play. Offline he is decent (far from top tier, but at least decent) but online it's a different story.
 

@MylesWright_

I'll be back 3ing
This is a pretty misleading upbeat thread. Top players aren't any better at blocking 50/50s or chip pressure, they are better at consistently avoiding the entire situation. I'm sure anyone could take DJTs lifebar if you sat him down and put him in a vortex