Are Nrs Games The Scrubbiest Games (easiest to learn) in the Fgc?

This insistence that SF outperforms MK on a competitive scale purely based on the game itself is actually pretty funny.

SF outperforms games a lot of fighting game players hold in really high regards in terms of popularity, amount of competition, etc. The only thing it doesn't dominate is Smash. And hint...Smash isn't popular because it's the greatest game mechanically. Melee is broke as fuck, imbalanced as fuck, and the game itself requires community-built rules that the game itself does not enforce in order to be a playable game in a competitive format. It also has one of the higher execution barriers of games currently played, and even games played back then. So why would people want to continue to play it at a competitive level...? Idk...Nintendo characters that just about every gamer has grown up with beating the shit out of each other. Marvel is popular due to the arcade history and the survival of MvC2 for 10 years. Even MK's popularity is fueled an insane amount by its brand.

A brand has so much power, it's not even funny. The legacy of SF backs its current scene so much. There are so many games that are literally considered masterpieces in terms of gameplay by many, that don't come close to seeing the light of day at tournaments. Just because no one cares about the brand itself.

Also, using EVO numbers solely is dumb. For one, EVO is an international major built around Capcom games. Like, EVO literally got its start from that. Smash is the absolute largest non-Capcom game, period, and Melee is fueled by almost 2 decades of extensive community support. For MKX to get a 4th place at this past EVO with the general stigma it has is actually great.

Slips said:

As I said, no fighting game is gonna touch SF. It's the staple fighting game and I think everyone is content with that. MKX get's 4th and that's bad? Many people consider Smash to be it's own entity since it became huge outside of the FGC. So outside of Smash, MKX is 2nd to Street Figher (making it 'Pepsi') and that makes the game trash? How does that make sense? How are you not just being a pure hater with that information staring you in the face?

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I don't get it. We're going in circles because to you if I don't say MKX is the best it translates in your brain as "bad". If I say the fgc's common complaints with nrs games are this, this and this you go on about Ultras doing a lot of damage once upon a time. As if convincing me or more accurately yourself that they're equal will change thousands of minds. When I say there's nothing wrong about playing nrs games, you tell me I'm a hater. Half the time I have to unpack all this baggage from these hit and run points coming from people who don't pay attention until they find something they can nitpick. Like, look at this for example:

Zoidberg747 said:

Its funny because you were rambling on about how Marvel pulls in more than MKX yet choose to use an example where Marvel had a few hundred less than MKX. Bur you ignore that.

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I can't recall saying MKX only. I said "nrs games" which entails alot more than one Evo at MKX's Prime vs a game that has more evos than any nrs game. But of course I can count on Zoidberg to make me reply over and over until even I forget what the hell the thread was even about.

Stopping to address all the points like this only dilutes my main point and I drown in posts like:

Undergroundepict said:

Lastly, your assertion that we are attempting to defend the game because we see criticism of it as "an indictment of our skill" is flat out wrong. We are defending the game against cries of "simplicity" or "scrubbery" because such statements are objectively incorrect.

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I wasn't asserting anything. It was a suggestion at best. Also opinions about the game aren't "objectively wrong" because they're opinions. That's all I wanted to say.

Slips said:

Congrats on KI probably getting it's 3rd year at Evo. NRS games are going on their 5th. We've already been there. You act like MKX is dying and it's been pulling good numbers all year.

You haven't provided any facts to say why MKX is bad other than the FGC says it's bad. Everything you hate MKX for is prevalent in all fighting games which I've already pointed out yet you just want to ignore. Until you can actually provide real legitimate reasons as to why MKX is bad then it's pretty obvious you are being a 'sheep' since you can't even articulate your argument outside of, 'NRS games are bad because that's what everyone else says.'

All I hear is 'Bahahahaha'

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That's a weird stealth shot to take at KI, a game that boasts 1. Life after 2 years and 2. 3rd official evo for the only competitive iteration if it's kind 3. not having 4 dlc character for half the price of the game 4. or a functional online 5. how about one of the best communities 6. let me stop there before my valid criticisms are called hate. ...But hey, maybe Injustice 2 right?

Again with the absolutes. If i say something is "unpopular" it's "dead?" Also I can't factually prove opinions on MKX, you got me.

Serious answer is you lack contextualization or are willfully ignorant towards understanding degrees. All games can be scrubby. Some games can be more scrubby than others. Not everyone has the same tolerance for scrubbiness. People feel nrs games contain too much scrubbiness. Less people play nrs games. It's that simple. I have nothing else to add.

THTB said:

This insistence that SF outperforms MK on a competitive scale purely based on the game itself is actually pretty funny.

SF outperforms games a lot of fighting game players hold in really high regards in terms of popularity, amount of competition, etc. The only thing it doesn't dominate is Smash. And hint...Smash isn't popular because it's the greatest game mechanically. Melee is broke as fuck, imbalanced as fuck, and the game itself requires community-built rules that the game itself does not enforce in order to be a playable game in a competitive format. It also has one of the higher execution barriers of games currently played, and even games played back then. So why would people want to continue to play it at a competitive level...? Idk...Nintendo characters that just about every gamer has grown up with beating the shit out of each other. Marvel is popular due to the arcade history and the survival of MvC2 for 10 years. Even MK's popularity is fueled an insane amount by its brand.

A brand has so much power, it's not even funny. The legacy of SF backs its current scene so much. There are so many games that are literally considered masterpieces in terms of gameplay by many, that don't come close to seeing the light of day at tournaments. Just because no one cares about the brand itself.

Also, using EVO numbers solely is dumb. For one, EVO is an international major built around Capcom games. Like, EVO literally got its start from that. Smash is the absolute largest non-Capcom game, period, and Melee is fueled by almost 2 decades of extensive community support. For MKX to get a 4th place at this past EVO with the general stigma it has is actually great.

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What community enforced rules does Melee require? I know there are some banned techniques in 2v2, but was not aware of any existing for 1v1's.

Agree about its balance, though. That's what happens when a game is 10 years old and has never received one iota of support.

Project M was going to be the savior of Melee, but Nintendo fucked all of that up by being Nintendo, and the community itself pretends that it was their idea to drop Project M instead of fighting back or finding loopholes.

Smash 4 is a steaming pile of shit and I cannot believe that people pretend to play it competitively. It's like all the rejects and guys who couldn't win in Melee moved over to it, and they all think they are good now, but really it's just because not a single player worth a damn plays Smash 4.

I am so glad I never got into Smash. One of my best friends lives in the UK, and is one of the better players there (not top 10 or anything, just really good), so I would get to hear a whole fuckload about what was going on in the Smash community.

He retired recently, because apparently the Smash community is shit as well. That, and PM no longer being a thing.

And yeah, I am legit straight up afraid to criticize Street Fighter in the FGC. Anytime you posit that perhaps it might not be the greatest fighting game of all time, people look at me like I have schizophrenia.

Undergroundepict said:

What community enforced rules does Melee require? I know there are some banned techniques in 2v2, but was not aware of any existing for 1v1's.

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Items, certain stages are banned, etc.

THTB said:

This insistence that SF outperforms MK on a competitive scale purely based on the game itself is actually pretty funny.

SF outperforms games a lot of fighting game players hold in really high regards in terms of popularity, amount of competition, etc. The only thing it doesn't dominate is Smash. And hint...Smash isn't popular because it's the greatest game mechanically. Melee is broke as fuck, imbalanced as fuck, and the game itself requires community-built rules that the game itself does not enforce in order to be a playable game in a competitive format. It also has one of the higher execution barriers of games currently played, and even games played back then. So why would people want to continue to play it at a competitive level...? Idk...Nintendo characters that just about every gamer has grown up with beating the shit out of each other. Marvel is popular due to the arcade history and the survival of MvC2 for 10 years. Even MK's popularity is fueled an insane amount by its brand.

A brand has so much power, it's not even funny. The legacy of SF backs its current scene so much. There are so many games that are literally considered masterpieces in terms of gameplay by many, that don't come close to seeing the light of day at tournaments. Just because no one cares about the brand itself.

Also, using EVO numbers solely is dumb. For one, EVO is an international major built around Capcom games. Like, EVO literally got its start from that. Smash is the absolute largest non-Capcom game, period, and Melee is fueled by almost 2 decades of extensive community support. For MKX to get a 4th place at this past EVO with the general stigma it has is actually great.

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That's cool cause I never said SF's superiority in the fgc stems exclusively from it's gameplay. Slips and I have different opinions between how the two play, that's all. I'm glad we could bring the discoure about 2 steps backwards but at least you got some likes so it wasn't a total loss.

I used Evo as 1 example because more people from all scenes make an extra effort to perform in this tournament that any other, a taking of the pulse. I noted that nrs getting these numbers was an accomplishment within the community despite it's mostly negative perception. For a game I'm told is very popular in the fgc I just expected a little more than slightly ahead of Marvel.


Smash is hard to play. I saw some people in this thread saying it was th easiest, too.

Zoidberg747 said:

Items, certain stages are banned, etc.

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Oh ok. I knew about that. I thought that character specific stuff or move types were what he was referring to. I know things like Luigi Laddering are banned in 2v2, but 1v1 stuff seems to be OK. Items would be stupid in a tournament setting. The idea should be to play on a neutral field.

Shyyzmm said:

1. Life after 2 years and 2. 3rd official evo

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I don't mean to dump on KI because I think it's cool but how can anyone deny that the game isn't on life support? It can barely get entrants...plus Evo actually isn't official yet, it's very possible that even with the KI World Cup (A not great idea) it wouldn't be worth the low amount of entrants. I'm all for KI but pretending like it's going to survive over...well, most games is a bit of a stretch.

I agree Slips is a bad arguer

KingHippo said:

I don't mean to dump on KI because I think it's cool but how can anyone deny that the game isn't on life support? It can barely get entrants...plus Evo actually isn't official yet, it's very possible that even with the KI World Cup (A not great idea) it wouldn't be worth the low amount of entrants. I'm all for KI but pretending like it's going to survive over...well, most games is a bit of a stretch.

I agree Slips is a bad arguer

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This. Didn't they say there's only going to be 7 games this year? SFV, marvel, mkx, melee, xrd, and tekken 7 are probably locks. after that it's whether they have two smashes again or two street fighters, and it will probably be (at least) one of the two. With 8 games that have a much higher probability of making evo, I'll actually be surprised if KI makes it to evo next year, and if it does it'll most likely just come from microsoft $$$. The studio supports it, but the support in entrants and community don't make me optimistic for it.

Btw, mk9 made it to 3 evo's in NRS's first real competitive fg, with a large side tournament for an unofficial 4th, but that game didn't receive any less hate towards it.

KingHippo said:

I don't mean to dump on KI because I think it's cool but how can anyone deny that the game isn't on life support? It can barely get entrants...plus Evo actually isn't official yet, it's very possible that even with the KI World Cup (A not great idea) it wouldn't be worth the low amount of entrants. I'm all for KI but pretending like it's going to survive over...well, most games is a bit of a stretch.

I agree Slips is a bad arguer

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It is quiet right now. It's in that lull similar to nrs community where veterans are waiting for dlc and a return to form to it's "roots" with specific Season 3 updates. But a game previously limited to xb1 coming to a whole new platform can't be called dead just yet. Too early to call it.

I think KI is like a little happy secret xb1 players have. Hopefully PC platform opens up more doors for people who won't understandably buy an x1 for 1 game.

Shyyzmm said:

It is quiet right now. It's in that lull similar to nrs community where veterans are waiting for dlc and a return to form to it's "roots" with specific Season 3 updates. But a game previously limited to xb1 coming to a whole new platform can't be called dead just yet. Too early to call it.

I think KI is like a little happy secret xb1 players have. Hopefully PC platform opens up more doors for people who won't understandably buy an x1 for 1 game.

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Let's be real, its always been quiet. Im with Hippo and liked the game. But it has never been that successful as far as tournament entrants go. In fact, all the things you've said about MKX being the low tier game of the FGC and being largely ignored would apply much better to KI, as it seemed to have promise but has never taken off. Not saying it never will, but KI often has the lowest entrants at major tournaments and most of the tournament players I have talked to are not that optimistic.

Shyyzmm said:

But a game previously limited to xb1 coming to a whole new platform can't be called dead just yet.

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I agree that this will probably help, as will people seeing that Iron Galaxy has a vision and is committed to making the game whereas the transition from 1 to 2 had the big change in developer, style, menus, etc. I mean I would argue KI has a similar thing to MK games where it's so vastly different in how it performs that it's super polarizing, hence the low numbers.

KingHippo said:

I agree that this will probably help, as will people seeing that Iron Galaxy has a vision and is committed to making the game whereas the transition from 1 to 2 had the big change in developer, style, menus, etc. I mean I would argue KI has a similar thing to MK games where it's so vastly different in how it performs that it's super polarizing, hence the low numbers.

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I'd have to agree. The breaker system in general turns a lot of people off. Which is a shame because thats one of the most interesting thing about it.

I hope im wrong and it finally finds its footing eventually.

Zoidberg747 said:

I'd have to agree. The breaker system in general turns a lot of people off. Which is a shame because thats one of the most interesting thing about it.

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I honestly think it's also the weakest part of the game, judging from what I can see from talking to some of the KI players about it. I do not know much about the breaker system, so definitely correct me on it, but with what IG did in ensuring there were a larger quantity of times to break, and making combo options more break-friendly, the weaknesses of a breaker-based combo system like that really shine through. I don't play, so Idk if actual unbreakable combos exist, but if they don't, then the addition of weak, but unbreakable low damage combos would really help the game, and maybe upping the reward a bit the more you add breakable stuff...like it is now, but moreso.

KingHippo said:

I agree that this will probably help, as will people seeing that Iron Galaxy has a vision and is committed to making the game whereas the transition from 1 to 2 had the big change in developer, style, menus, etc. I mean I would argue KI has a similar thing to MK games where it's so vastly different in how it performs that it's super polarizing, hence the low numbers.

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Mmm, I wasn't around for it's beginnings but I've heard the drop off point for people came with the the changes brought with season 2. The manual system (manuals essentially make reacting to normals in combo impossible with single hitting moves, leaving the defender to a guessbreak) rework facilitates guess-breaking and S2 characters are clearly not desgined by the the S1 team. I'm sure Keits will make the right call with Season 3.

Whether the fgc rejects the game is up in the air, but at least now it has a fair shake being brought to a larger audience. I know there's definitely buzz about it and regardless of it being evo-worthy the game will not die anytime soon.

There are unbreakable combos.

Zoidberg747 said:

Let's be real, its always been quiet. Im with Hippo and liked the game. But it has never been that successful as far as tournament entrants go. In fact, all the things you've said about MKX being the low tier game of the FGC and being largely ignored would apply much better to KI, as it seemed to have promise but has never taken off. Not saying it never will, but KI often has the lowest entrants at major tournaments and most of the tournament players I have talked to are not that optimistic.

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The barrier of entry is way more real with KI. MKX also has it's brand to piggyback of off along with two audiences. I didn't know how good KI was til I played it myself. I know the top players in KI aren't nostalgic for past KIs either this is their first real experience with the franchise. The game itself was rushed to meet the xb1 release and born a dumpster baby only survived through quality in all aspects with great devs behind it. I trust that it can rise to the challenge of 2016 but it requires people to actually be able to play it first. I'm excited to see what happens and pray we get to set ai to reversal in training.

Undergroundepict said:

Mortal Kombat/NRS players have to defend their game more than any other community, it seems. The game is good. Deal with it.




The thing is, though, that making a game more accessible does not have to be a marketing ploy aimed at attracting casuals. MKX's accessibility is not "scrubby," it is an objectively positive pro to Street Fighter's con. There is absolutely no reason to make basic inputting and execution more difficult than it needs to be.

In the case of a game like Blaz Blue, however, you have a high execution barrier because the game itself offers an abundance of tools that add to the overall depth of the game. Inputs and basic combos themselves do not generally have execution barriers, it is understanding all the different types of tech rolls and block types and neutral game stuff.

I simply do not see how anyone can consider MKX "scrubby" next to SFIV, simply because it is easier to perform special moves and link basic combos. Both games are relatively straightforward and not overly complicated in terms of their gameplay mechanics. Literally the only thing that makes SFIV seem more complicated is the pretentious decision to make special moves and combos needlessly difficult.

I am not arguing that any one game is better than the other. Both are awesome games, and even if I do not personally care for Street Fighter, I can still acknowledge that it is fucking quality. I am simply pointing out that simplicity, widely considered a flaw or used in a pejorative context, is actually a good thing for a game.

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scrubby usually means easy to use/little to no learning curve.
In my opinion this is a good thing that NRS games have, even capcom has said multiple times that sf5 will be more noob friendly to attract new players.
MKX is what cod is to the FP shooters, easy to get into, but hard to compete at a high level.

THTB said:

I honestly think it's also the weakest part of the game, judging from what I can see from talking to some of the KI players about it. I do not know much about the breaker system, so definitely correct me on it, but with what IG did in ensuring there were a larger quantity of times to break, and making combo options more break-friendly, the weaknesses of a breaker-based combo system like that really shine through. I don't play, so Idk if actual unbreakable combos exist, but if they don't, then the addition of weak, but unbreakable low damage combos would really help the game, and maybe upping the reward a bit the more you add breakable stuff...like it is now, but moreso.

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But the thing is, the breakers aren't a "breaker" in the traditional sense. Rather than a free ticket out of a combo, it's just a risk-reward system. So if you f it up and guess wrong, you end up locked out for a while and your opponent has a chance to go ham/max out with whatever he chooses. When to break and what to break with, and how to occasionally bait breakers, becomes a whole interesting game of prediction and chance.

Imo that's not a weakness, just a difference. Some people won't like it, but others will love it.

PENIS

CrimsonShadow said:

But the thing is, the breakers aren't a "breaker" in the traditional sense. Rather than a free ticket out of a combo, it's just a risk-reward system. So if you f it up and guess wrong, you end up locked out for a while and your opponent has a chance to go ham/max out with whatever he chooses. When to break and what to break with, and how to occasionally bait breakers, becomes a whole interesting game of prediction and chance.

Imo that's not a weakness, just a difference. Some people won't like it, but others will love it.

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The way it is, it takes away the idea that you get rewarded for landing hits at times. Punishing an opponent turns into more than getting the combo. Now you have to outguess your opponent in a component of a fighting game that isn't really known for requiring guesswork to get rewarded out of. Granted, the guesswork is pretty skewed in the aggressor's favor. But at the same time, just one wrong guess means you drop a crucial opportunity that would have otherwise been a great punish.

Like I said, it's interesting, but from what I've talked to some players about it, it's a hindrance, too.

Shyyzmm said:

When I say there's nothing wrong about playing nrs games, you tell me I'm a hater. Half the time I have to unpack all this baggage from these hit and run points coming from people who don't pay attention until they find something they can nitpick. Like, look at this for example:




I can't recall saying MKX only. I said "nrs games" which entails alot more than one Evo at MKX's Prime vs a game that has more evos than any nrs game. But of course I can count on Zoidberg to make me reply over and over until even I forget what the hell the thread was even about.

Stopping to address all the points like this only dilutes my main point and I drown in posts like:


I wasn't asserting anything. It was a suggestion at best. Also opinions about the game aren't "objectively wrong" because they're opinions. That's all I wanted to say.




That's a weird stealth shot to take at KI, a game that boasts 1. Life after 2 years and 2. 3rd official evo for the only competitive iteration if it's kind 3. not having 4 dlc character for half the price of the game 4. or a functional online 5. how about one of the best communities 6. let me stop there before my valid criticisms are called hate. ...But hey, maybe Injustice 2 right?

People feel nrs games contain too much scrubbiness. Less people play nrs games. It's that simple. I have nothing else to add.

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Very well said!

Shyyzmm said:

Serious answer is you lack contextualization or are willfully ignorant towards understanding degrees. All games can be scrubby. Some games can be more scrubby than others. Not everyone has the same tolerance for scrubbiness. People feel nrs games contain too much scrubbiness. Less people play nrs games. It's that simple. I have nothing else to add.

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I guess here is what it boils down to and our definition of scrubbiness is simply different. To me, outside of the phenoms like JWong, Chris G, Tokido, Daigo and maybe SonicFox, it's incredibly hard to master any fighting game no matter how hard or easy they are to play.

Skill goes beyond the execution of moves, combos and braindead tools. There is a sense of risk/reward that must be mastered and that seems to be very hard to grasp.

Hell even DOA, the paper/rock/scissors of fighting games has consistent winners and it doesn't get much scrubbier than that in the FGC's eyes. But there is obviously 'something' that their top players are doing that everyone is missing. And it's the sense of strategy of how the risk/reward system works in that game. That's the ultimate skill. That's why my talking points go to the extreme because that skill should be held above all regardless of the ease of execution or how derpy the tools might be.

Maybe I'm being naïve? I don't know. I've tried to be good at many games and the only one I've been able to say I truly mastered is Namco games. I'm 'good' at NRS games but I am no SonicFox, DJT, or Wound. Or at least haven't been able to prove it yet.

So if you want to crucify me for admiring skill outside of easy execution and overpowered special moves then be my guest. I just don't look at it the way you do.

Any company that isn't capcom could release the best fighting game ever and street fighter would still get more entrants. We know what is going on here, we don't need to pretend why capcom games are the end all be all. Street fighter and marvel just have a bigger history and a lot of these players will play it whether it is shitty or not.

Undergroundepict said:

And yeah, I am legit straight up afraid to criticize Street Fighter in the FGC. Anytime you posit that perhaps it might not be the greatest fighting game of all time, people look at me like I have schizophrenia.

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Most legit SF players I know think SF4 is the weakest street fighter game out there(not counting 1 and some obscure s***). So I don't think it's controversial to criticize sf. I just think it's controversial to say that a game like mkx has the same level of depth that sf does. depth isn't me saying MK is bad, just that it objectively has a simpler strategy because of nrs design choices.

Edit: inb4 I get blown up for saying SF has more depth than MK.

This has lasted so much longer than anticipated, well done but if possible stop.

FL Rushdown said:

Most legit SF players I know think SF4 is the weakest street fighter game out there(not counting 1 and some obscure s***). So I don't think it's controversial to criticize sf. I just think it's controversial to say that a game like mkx has the same level of depth that sf does. depth isn't me saying MK is bad, just that it objectively has a simpler strategy because of nrs design choices.

Edit: inb4 I get blown up for saying SF has more depth than MK.

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So deep...

GAV said:

So deep...

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Yeah at least the sf dive kicks can cross up or have multiple angles and require pinpoint spacing to make them safe. I mean are you saying MK doesn't have divekicks? Besides it's an objective fact that SF has more mechanics and more complicated versions of the shared game mechanics. That's not opinion it's a fact.