Are Nrs Games The Scrubbiest Games (easiest to learn) in the Fgc?

I GOT HANDS said:

Then I guess I'm a pretty massive scrub. I have a personal rule where I won't use the perceived strongest characters - because winning with them sucks the fun out, I much prefer winning with a lower tier character and not opening the door up the the age old excuse "you only beat me because of tiers blah blah", which, to be quite honest - is actually a fairly good excuse sometimes. Some characters simply cannot compete with a half decent Tempest or Quan even if you out skill your opponent. So yeah, I don't play casually, I do play to win - but more importantly I play to have fun, it is a game after all, and to have fun I have self-imposed rules - I don't expect anyone else to do the same and I couldn't care less if they did, I personally just don't get any enjoyment out of winning with broke tier characters. Unless people don't realise their broke. Then it's fun to show people what some poorly perceived characters are capable of my top 10 would probably make a lot of people cry blasphemy lol but I'm pretty confident that when all is said and done that I'll be closer to the truth than this Tanya/Predator/Erron conception

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I am one of the few that respects much more someone who picks top tier knowing that many won't acknowledge their playstyle, than someone who picks low tier because they know that'll give them another excuse to say "you didn't outplay me".

I GOT HANDS said:

PS. my last post was responding to the street fighter book writing guys opinions, not your summary of them, I never blame things for being cheap, or unbalanced, I just accept my loss.

However it is definitely frustrating playing for fun and playing against people who refuse to pick until you do, and make sure that they counter pick and that the odds are completely against them ever having to risk losing a game - "oh you picked Hat Trick? Better pick Tempest to make sure I'm playing one of the best characters in the game against your low tier variation. Oh you picked Grandmaster this time? Better swap to DVorah to make sure I can't possibly lose". However it is super satisfying beating these people. Then tea bagging. Yeah bitch. You like that, don't you. Taste those balls of ice. Open your retarded little bug mouth and take them all in, look me in eyes with those pitch black eyeballs you got. That's right, who's your daddy now huh.

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You say you just accept your loss, but "'you only beat me because of tiers' [...] is actually a fairly good excuse sometimes".
I think you should never teabag. Counterpicking isn't disrespectful; teabagging is.

Kingshootahz said:

Brood mother BnBs are optimal at 1 frame links in fact, Jax, Liu kang,erron black and I think high tech Jacqui have a few 1 frame links...that I have never pulled off.

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Erron black doesn't have a 1f link

Some of the best fighting game players in the world have had trouble grasping the meta of these games and being able to win at them, so I'm going to say no.

There's a lot more to the mechanics of a fighting game engine (and how easy they are to pick up) than just the move inputs.

I GOT HANDS said:

Then I guess I'm a pretty massive scrub. I have a personal rule where I won't use the perceived strongest characters - because winning with them sucks the fun out, I much prefer winning with a lower tier character and not opening the door up the the age old excuse "you only beat me because of tiers blah blah", which, to be quite honest - is actually a fairly good excuse sometimes. Some characters simply cannot compete with a half decent Tempest or Quan even if you out skill your opponent. So yeah, I don't play casually, I do play to win - but more importantly I play to have fun, it is a game after all, and to have fun I have self-imposed rules - I don't expect anyone else to do the same and I couldn't care less if they did, I personally just don't get any enjoyment out of winning with broke tier characters. Unless people don't realise their broke. Then it's fun to show people what some poorly perceived characters are capable of my top 10 would probably make a lot of people cry blasphemy lol but I'm pretty confident that when all is said and done that I'll be closer to the truth than this Tanya/Predator/Erron conception

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Bruh, scrub mentality.

The whole 'I don't play top tier' mentality is the age old option select. If your favourite character is top, would you not play them just because of that?

Ultimately, if you make excuses you're not playing to win because you're not looking for an answer to win, you're looking for a reason for loss.

A F0xy Grampa said:

Bruh, scrub mentality.

The whole 'I don't play top tier' mentality is the age old option select. If your favourite character is top, would you not play them just because of that?

Ultimately, if you make excuses you're not playing to win because you're not looking for an answer to win, you're looking for a reason for loss.

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Desperdicio said:

I am one of the few that respects much more someone who picks top tier knowing that many won't acknowledge their playstyle, than someone who picks low tier because they know that'll give them another excuse to say "you didn't outplay me".



You say you just accept your loss, but "'you only beat me because of tiers' [...] is actually a fairly good excuse sometimes".
I think you should never teabag. Counterpicking isn't disrespectful; teabagging is.

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I think you guys both missed my follow up post where I clarified that I never use that excuse. If Noob is released and is top tier, I'll pick him. But as I don't have a favourite character in this roster I'll avoid jumping on a top tier, and lower tier characters are just as capable and very unique, and at my level (or, any level that's not the highest) I really don't think tiers are going to be something really costing me a whole lot of games. However, I do think the excuse can be a pretty good one at times e.g. If I were to pick QC, best the shit outta someone with the most broken crap in game, and he turns around and says "well yeah you best my Kano, but I think characters had a lot to do with it"... Then yeah, I really can't argue that too much. That's why I pick lower tiers so I knowmy victories came from pure skill, it also makes the victory taste much nicer. However I NEVER blame tierings for a loss, nor do I even think like this, and I will say now I don't feel that I've ever lost a single game where I wasn't outplayed and where there wasn't a million things I could have done better. Except for online lag slap fights lol.

Also I don't teabag, that whole post from that sentence onwards was purely intended as humour. However I really don't care when someone does it - meh you are pressing the down direction as fast as you can OH NO IM INSULTED BY THIS. The only thing I care about is getting to the next match, and if they ain't wasting both our time with a fatality than I'm cool with whatever antics they get up to during the 5 second dizzy spell. Usually gives me time to take an extra sip of whatever I've been pouring =) teabag and stance switch spam away friends

I GOT HANDS said:

Exactly it, same for me with every game - I main Terrorblade in Dota, Skytoss in Starcraft, I make sure I have at least one or two UU pokes in every OU team, I never net list for any tabletop game always build myself and deliberately stray away from Xenoxing shit, in MtG I set myself $50 and under limits for competitive play, I take 1v10 fights in Eve Online even in a frigate, dual daggers in Dark Souls, etc etc, I just love playing games against the odds I mean isn't it the best fckin thing it's pretty much what I play these games for. its also part of the reason I'm so disgusted by this community at times. The downplay is fucking horrific. The QC community makes my head hurt.

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Yes! Dark souls is a prime example, everyone was running around with the havel mom chaos blade/rapier meta. Then there's me going to town on them with sun bro cosplay or my zero poise claymore build. I loved fighting vs gankers too 1v3 darksouls invasions, the sheer satisfaction of taking down 3 overleveled opponents by yourself is the greatest feeling you can get in the gaming world, it's like a big fuck u, despite all odds I reign victorious.

The term scrub is thrown around abit too liberality in the FGC, people will always find something to complain about though even when you use lower tier, playing harley in injustice I'd regularly get hate mail from people using top tier calling me a spammer for using her guns as space control and cupcakes on prediction of their jump ins. I'm like dude, i'm not spamming, if I was I wouldn't be punishing all your batgirl teleports. It helps though that some people notice and send messages like yo dude your harley is sick, or bodying someone multiple times with kotal and getting messages thanking me for rekindling their desire to play him despite them giving up on him in the past. Feel like I've done my job then, showing people the potential of the more obscure characters.

Wait easy = scrubby? Soo smash 4 and SF4 are for srcubs only?

Omg you're right. You know what game has easy execution? Chess. It must only attract scrubs without skill.

I see some people bringing up the block button aspect. I never understood why a game would not have a block button honestly. It seems outdated to me to hold back to block.... like 20 yr ago outdated. I am sure many would argue that, but that is just how I feel.

big j gleez said:

I see some people bringing up the block button aspect. I never understood why a game would not have a block button honestly. It seems outdated to me to hold back to block.... like 20 yr ago outdated. I am sure many would argue that, but that is just how I feel.

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Cross ups bruh. I would've said the same thing before injustice, but fell in love with cross ups when injustice dropped.

I think naturally NRS games are easier to pick up and play. I also think NRS tries to make the game easier to play by making tools overpowered. I consider that more scrubby than the actual execution but I still think it takes just as much effort to be a top player in any game. You, as a top player, must have something that separates you from the "good" player

virtiqaL said:

Ease of execution is most likely at the bottom of the list of criticisms that players from other communities have for MKX and NRS games. There's plenty of other reasons for them to consider a game such as MKX 'scrubby'.

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^ I don't like getting into these topics simply because there' a LOT to give input on and despite all the facts pointed out, you still get your blind loyalists saying otherwise anyways.

What I find "scrubby" in this particular game and it has been gradually getting "scrubbier" after mk9, is the auto pilot, massive hit box, speed, recovery, frame data, and ease of input, that fill the top tiers' movelists. You have NORMALS that have massive range, fall under 12f, are safe/plus/neutral or can be canceled into safe specials or safe run cancels/cancels in general. I find NRS "scrubby" for that simple fact that their top 10 notoriously is easy mode in terms of picking up and execution. While SOME characters require a little more practice than others, its NOWHERE near SF/GG/KI/etc execution level.

Its the general risk and reward that they give to select characters and it's WAY more obvious in this game than in previous ones. Also, the way jump attacks and general air control is in this game, is stupidly easy, auto pilot, and the tracking is either shit or unnecessarily good for such a simple input and quick speed. Its really just a basic bitch fest with this game because 99% of the cast play the same exact way, just with different animations and inputs.

try doing Kabal's 2NDC as a carry in MK9 and then talk to me about NRS games having scrubby execution.

Granted, I'm not doing an overall side by side comparison with other fighting games, but there are PLENTY of NRS characters with very difficult execution.

Javierich0 said:

Wait easy = scrubby? Soo smash 4 and SF4 are for srcubs only?

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Sf4 has one frame links. You must be momochi or infiltration. If that's the case, you're right.

big j gleez said:

I see some people bringing up the block button aspect. I never understood why a game would not have a block button honestly. It seems outdated to me to hold back to block.... like 20 yr ago outdated. I am sure many would argue that, but that is just how I feel.

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I think its the opposite. I'd say most other games have it right and it's time for MK to move on from the outdated block button.

TackyHaddock said:

try doing Kabal's 2NDC as a carry in MK9 and then talk to me about NRS games having scrubby execution.

Granted, I'm not doing an overall side by side comparison with other fighting games, but there are PLENTY of NRS characters with very difficult execution.

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There are exceptions to the rule, but other than Kabal 2NDC, Mk9 was a very easy execution game.

MK9's counter poking mechanic was difficult enough few had mastered it. In fact not many even really understood the meta. The number of ppl who I played that mastered that was low.

Likewise not many were good at stuffing wakeups in injustice, something I spent a great deal of time working on. Like mk9 counter poking you get a sense many who even post here don't know what they're talking about.

These games all have their hidden nuances that create a skill gap. Always be skeptical of those saying games are simple, they're usually dudes who can't get out of pools, which is funny if they're right cause you'd think it'd be easy for them.

Tony at Home said:

Honestly, the attitude that easy execution = scrubby is itself a scrub attitude.

If you do something unsafe in this game, even an average opponent can hit you hard. I think it's more scrubby to be let off your mistakes because your opponent was one frame off.

And at high level, execution is really not different between players, so it ceases to be a differentiator. Diago and Momochi are going to hit all their links, so the "execution game" is already a wash.

That's another reason the "easy execution = scrub" idea is just scrubbiness in itself. Execution plays less and less of a role as the players become more high level. So if people complain x rays are just triggers in MKX its because they're still low level enough that it even matters.

I mean, remember the people RIOTING when MvC announced an easy input mode that would give you 1 button specials at the cost of a ton of your moveset? Yeah, those were scrubs who were foolish enough to think that would actually give people an advantage.

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There's an anecdote in Sirlin's chapter on Scrubs in Playing to Win where he describes beating someone who kept trying complex moves just by repeatedly throwing him.

I once played a scrub who was actually quite good. That is, he knew the rules of the game well, he knew the character matchups well, and he knew what to do in most situations. But his web of mental rules kept him from truly playing to win. He cried cheap as I beat him with “no skill moves” while he performed many difficult dragon punches. He cried cheap when I threw him five times in a row asking, “Is that all you know how to do? Throw?” I gave him the best advice he could ever hear. I told him, “Play to win, not to do ‘difficult moves.’” This was a big moment in that scrub’s life. He could either ignore his losses and continue living in his mental prison or analyze why he lost, shed his rules, and reach the next level of play.

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This is one of my favorite anecdotes, because the moral of it is that the complexity of what you're doing does not equate to better chances of winning.

Slymind said:

In terms of execution, Smash would be easily the easiest, but there is more to fighting games than doing a command and pressing a button.

In general the games are just different, it's hard to measure, since each game will bring different elements to the table.

So, no, i don't consider MK to be the "scrubiest", nor do i believe there is one, at least among modern fighting games.

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dude melee is hard

i don't give a fuck how easy it.....i love the gameplay, the characters, the fighting style/pace, and most of all the lore. i am more than content with these things

Slymind said:

In terms of execution, Smash would be the easiest

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Maybe at a casual level, but I would disagree when it comes to the highest level. The amount of inputs per second you have to do to get anywhere in high level Melee play is insane and Smash 4 isn't much easier. Players like Mew2King are already getting arthritis-like problems with their hands even though they're not that old.

Your premise is flawed.

Low execution =/= scrubby

If that were the case, then Rising Thunder is striving to be the scrubbiest of all.

Can you make a poll

d3v said:

Except he's right. Ther term scrubby has nothing to do with ease of execution, or the game itself.

From David Sirlin's (former SF top player and game developer) book Playing to Win.
http://www.sirlin.net/ptw-book/introducingthe-scrub


Basically, a scrub is a player that complains that something in the game is "cheap" or "unbalanced", and that they lost because of it. Therefore, the true scrub believes that "cheap" tactics, moves and even characters are unacceptable for competitive play.

Therefore the term scrub can only be applied to players, or maybe a community. Applying it to a game is almost impossible, because a scrub is someone who doesn't subscribe by the "rules" of the game (basically, anything allowed by the game's code), but rather layers their own set of rules on top of it.

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Don't feed the animals, but thank you for this accurate and insightful post .

SneakyTortoise said:

I've never understood what people mean when they describe a game as "scrubby"

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TYM is like a political campaign that uses "buzzwords" and half the time they don't mean what people say they mean. Plus, we gotta justfiy why we aren't doing work.

Eldriken said:

@d3v, just let Mafia troll, lol. You're not gonna get anywhere with him when he's in a trolling mood.

<3 you, Mafia. =D

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Make sure to wipe your chin after