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General/Other - Raiden God of thunder has to stop falling to nerf abyss!!

Vaiist

Noob
It honestly sounds like this whole thread can be boiled down to b1 needing to be fixed. I think a reliable 8 frame mid would be the perfect compromise to the whole "should f1 be high?" debate. On paper he's balanced, but the whiffing issues really hurt his pressure and change how I think he was intended to work.

I love Raiden and will continue to play him no matter what his competitive viability is. The only things I have problems with are when the practical function of something doesn't work as intended. I have to think that b1 is one of those issues.

All the other characters that have gotten buffs can almost directly be traced back to how vocal the community is about it. I think we even saw a little bit of that with MoS and Displacer. This thread is a good thing because it's blowing up and getting a little attention, but I think we need to be realistic. Raiden has a lot going for him, but he suffers a lot because of a string that you simply can't rely on. I don't know about you, but I'm never going for b1 in a clutch situation because you're essentially rolling the dice on something that should be predictable.

In the end I think a 6 frame high and an 8 frame mid are reasonable tools. The problem is the random factor and I just can't believe NRS intended b1 to land the way it does. If that was fixed I'd have nothing further to say about whatever shortcomings he has and be perfectly happy with his strengths.
 

Nivek

Athena guide me, the thunder God...
I'm hesitant to say 8 or 9, but if his F1 was to be made a mid and raise it's start up frames, would you be cool with that? Or any other Raiden main that reads this?
naaaah.. he needs his 6f high.. what i think he needs and MAYBE IS OK..
1) NON low profiled,fixed b11
2) His damage from lighting string not being scaling so much
3) His low pokes dont be so much punishable and/or give enough frame advantage on hit

for the other 2 variations:

1) No gap on f12b2 (really why there is a gap? its -2)
2) MOS orbs better recovery
3) Fixed his prepatch combo f12b2 x3 bf3
4) b34 exdf2 connect more consistant
5) Revarsal balance (ex df2 safe[edit: -10~11??] because its a high but can be canceled on strings, or ex db3 fix damage scaling)
 
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Derptile

RIP Ex Smash
naaaah.. he needs his 6f high.. what i think he needs and MAYBE IS OK..
1) NON low profiled,fixed b11.
2) His damage from lighting string not being scaling so much
3) His low pokes dont be so much punishable and/or give enough frame advantage on hit

for the other 2 variations:

1) No gap on f12b2 (really why there is a gap? its -2)
2) MOS orbs better recovery
3) Fixed his prepatch combo f12b2 x3 bf3
4) b34 exdf2 connect more consistant
5) Revarsal balance (ex df2 safe[-7~8] because its a high or ex db3 fix damage scaling)
Ex Shocker shouldn't be safe, everything else you said is fine. I also think TG should get the prepatch lightning chip, and if you really wanted you could ask for a minuscule range increase on B1(which probably won't happen though).
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
naaaah.. he needs his 6f high.. what i think he needs and MAYBE IS OK..
1) NON low profiled,fixed b11
2) His damage from lighting string not being scaling so much
3) His low pokes dont be so much punishable and/or give enough frame advantage on hit

for the other 2 variations:

1) No gap on f12b2 (really why there is a gap? its -2)
2) MOS orbs better recovery
3) Fixed his prepatch combo f12b2 x3 bf3
4) b34 exdf2 connect more consistant
5) Revarsal balance (ex df2 safe[edit: -10~11??] because its a high but can be canceled on strings, or ex db3 fix damage scaling)
I agree with this. I would just add one thing: fix his (EX) DB3 so on block Raiden doesn't end up behind the opponent at like -100f (or some such). The hit box on that move is iffy. It should push them back enough so when he drops to the ground, he is in front of them.
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
naaaah.. he needs his 6f high.. what i think he needs and MAYBE IS OK..
1) NON low profiled,fixed b11
2) His damage from lighting string not being scaling so much
3) His low pokes dont be so much punishable and/or give enough frame advantage on hit

for the other 2 variations:

1) No gap on f12b2 (really why there is a gap? its -2)
2) MOS orbs better recovery
3) Fixed his prepatch combo f12b2 x3 bf3
4) b34 exdf2 connect more consistant
5) Revarsal balance (ex df2 safe[edit: -10~11??] because its a high but can be canceled on strings, or ex db3 fix damage scaling)
Ex shocker should be unsafe. He has other armored moves and they all lead to combos which usually means unsafe.

B34xxDF2 would probably need less knockback on b34. Only change I could think of that wouldn't affect a lot of things.

MoS needs way more than better recovery.

But I agree with everything else.

However, I will forever be a member of the "f1 should be a mid" camp.
 

The PantyChrist

Rest in Pantiez
I agree with this. I would just add one thing: fix his (EX) DB3 so on block Raiden doesn't end up behind the opponent at like -100f (or some such). The hit box on that move is iffy. It should push them back enough so when he drops to the ground, he is in front of them.
what difference does it make if he's punishable af in front or behind the opponent?
 

Vaiist

Noob
what difference does it make if he's punishable af in front or behind the opponent?
I think he's saying that if the first hit has more knock back on block then the second hit wouldn't whiff. As it is it's safe, it just has a slightly unmanageable trajectory.
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
I think he's saying that if the first hit has more knock back on block then the second hit wouldn't whiff. As it is it's safe, it just has a slightly unmanageable trajectory.
Correct, that's what I meant to say. And also, when you are landing behind them, it seems like they turn towards you much faster than you do. That doesn't make a huge difference, because regardless of which way you are facing you are still at a frame disadvantage, but in some cases when the opponent fails to punish or is slow in doing so, Raiden has to wait that little bit of extra time it takes to turn before he can do anything.

Either way though, fixing the hitbox on (EX) DB3 would take care of this problem as well.
 

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
Ex Shocker shouldn't be safe, everything else you said is fine. I also think TG should get the prepatch lightning chip, and if you really wanted you could ask for a minuscule range increase on B1(which probably won't happen though).
DUDE NO WAY RAIDEN IS 80/100 HE WENT FROM 100/100 TO 80/100


:DOGE fool
 

Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
Nivek is one of the 3 best scrach that 2 best raiden in the world since Dizzy said fuck this mid low garbo, and you think you know more about the game and character than him and foxy?
This is BS!!! You don't know if this guys is actually better than both of them! I'm just tired of people putting down others just cause they can't afford the luxury of traveling around the world to show case their gameplay at a competitive level!
Someone already suggested this, but we disagreed.
I thought they had said to make it an 11 or 12 frame mid.
naaaah.. he needs his 6f high.. what i think he needs and MAYBE IS OK..
1) NON low profiled,fixed b11
2) His damage from lighting string not being scaling so much
3) His low pokes dont be so much punishable and/or give enough frame advantage on hit

for the other 2 variations:

1) No gap on f12b2 (really why there is a gap? its -2)
2) MOS orbs better recovery
3) Fixed his prepatch combo f12b2 x3 bf3
4) b34 exdf2 connect more consistant
5) Revarsal balance (ex df2 safe[edit: -10~11??] because its a high but can be canceled on strings, or ex db3 fix damage scaling)
So mainly you'd be happy with them fixing his b11 so no one can low profile it? And keeping the same start up frames it has right now?
 

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
This is BS!!! You don't know if this guys is actually better than both of them! I'm just tired of people putting down others just cause they can't afford the luxury of traveling around the world to show case their gameplay at a competitive level!
Esl and every other online tournament from here to the moon are places to prove how good of a player you are if you can't travel. Local tournament footage is another. Sounds like some bs.
 
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Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
Esl and every other online tournament from here to the moon are places to prove how good of a player you are if you can treavel. Local tournament footage is another. Sounds like some bs.
Some nerve to say online tournaments prove your skill. More than half the community looks down on online players. It does sound like some bs.
 

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
Some nerve to say online tournaments prove your skill. More than half the community looks down on online players. It does sound like some bs.
The player who won esl (sonic fox), also won evo. Thats says alot.

So are you trying to say the online doesnt represent your skill level at all? Cause that completely disproves that point.


If the connection is right, online can absolutely represent your skill level. You might be even better offline but its not a night and day difference if the connections right. <-- big emphasis on connection being right
 
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Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
The player who won esl (sonic fox), also won evo. Thats says alot.

So are you trying to say the online doesnt represent your skill level at all? Cause that completely disproves that point.


If the connection is right, online can absolutely represent your skill level. You might be even better offline but its not a night and day difference if the connections right. <-- big emphasis on connection being right
You are so lost man. It IS night and day. No matter how you put it, good connection, decent connection, great connection.
But I do give credit to online play. I'm just saying most of the community doesn't. So to me it doesn't even matter anymore either cause I know any effort will go wasted as it's happened in the past years that I've been playing online. You won't get recognition online.
Now, you mentioned SonicFox, people is so hypocritical that will give credit to those that win online ONLY if they've won offline before, and the name you picked is the perfect example of such. This is waaaaay off 'cause before all, SonicFox is and has been an offline champion. Like I said, you're lost.

All that aside, I wish you were right, I don't have the money to be traveling to all or most majors across the country.
 

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
You are so lost man. It IS night and day. No matter how you put it, good connection, decent connection, great connection.
But I do give credit to online play. I'm just saying most of the community doesn't. So to me it doesn't even matter anymore either cause I know any effort will go wasted as it's happened in the past years that I've been playing online. You won't get recognition online.
Now, you mentioned SonicFox, people is so hypocritical that will give credit to those that win online ONLY if they've won offline before, and the name you picked is the perfect example of such. This is waaaaay off 'cause before all, SonicFox is and has been an offline champion. Like I said, you're lost.

All that aside, I wish you were right, I don't have the money to be traveling to all or most majors across the country.
Lol wat.

You're saying that this random tym poster could be a better player then nivek and dizzy/digit but has no tournament footage because maybe he cant travel, no online footage or online tournament wins, which actually mean nothing apparently unless you've won offline, no local's footage, and hasn't played against any top players.

And btw, of course i use sonic fox as the example since he won the biggest online tournament for the game we're talking about, and the biggest offline tournament right after. Proving that if you're good online, you're also good offline, and vice versa. It's extremely relative to the topic. You're talking about other no named people's opinions about things that aren't my opinion and using it to argue with me lol.

You sound very lost
 

Airvidal

"You play weird" It's called being unorthodox ;)
Lol wat.

You're saying that this random tym poster could be a better player then nivek and dizzy/digit but has no tournament footage because maybe he cant travel, no online footage or online tournament wins, which actually mean nothing apparently unless you've won offline, no local's footage, and hasn't played against any top players.

And btw, of course i use sonic fox as the example since he won the biggest online tournament for the game we're talking about, and the biggest offline tournament right after. Proving that if you're good online, you're also good offline, and vice versa. It's extremely relative to the topic. You're talking about other no named people's opinions about things that aren't my opinion and using it to argue with me lol.

You sound very lost
"Proving that if you're good online, you're also good offline, and vice versa"
Go ask any pro players and see what they tell you. Btw, those "no names" you mentioned are actually the most known pro players. And yes it is their opinion, but they are like gods for every one else and so people follow their beliefs....shouldn't...

Oh, and for the record, you're the one that's looking to argue with me. I was defending online or unknown players. Now you seem to be making it seem as if I'm the one that doesn't recognize their skill. So if we're on the same side in that regard, I have no clue why we're exchanging this argument.
 

Dinosaur

Data Collecting
"Proving that if you're good online, you're also good offline, and vice versa"
Go ask any pro players and see what they tell you. Btw, those "no names" you mentioned are actually the most known pro players. And yes it is their opinion, but they are like gods for every one else and so people follow their beliefs....shouldn't...

Oh, and for the record, you're the one that's looking to argue with me. I was defending online or unknown players. Now you seem to be making it seem as if I'm the one that doesn't recognize their skill. So if we're on the same side in that regard, I have no clue why we're exchanging this argument.
When I say good online, I don't mean a good ratio on ranked matches or player matches, i mean a good player is a good player. Regardless if they're offline or online. The arguments pointless cause I disagree with your first comment i quoted. This random player isn't better then nivek or dizzy.