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General/Other - Raiden God of thunder has to stop falling to nerf abyss!!

SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
infamy23 said:
Yes I know. I was trying to get him to go in to detail so that I could point out that it doesn't actually work against people who know the matchup.

Think about the moves that you would actually want to use this on. Sure, you can easily stuff Tremor, or Predator, but why would you? If you think those characters are gonna armor then just block and take your full combo. There's no point guessing with b32 in this situation and risk whiffing it over a delayed wakeup, or having them block it and giving up your corner advantage for the chance at a measly 25%

So when would you actually want to stuff someone's wakeup? Well, against wakeups that you can't punish on block. Jax's straight dash punch. Cage's shadow kick. Tanya's rekka, Jason's command grab, Goro's punchwalk etc...

The problem is, all of these types of moves are too fast to be stuffed out, if your opponent knows the matchup and does a tech roll after superman in the corner. If you try to go for b32[h] after a superman to stuff these characters, you will get beat by their armor if they tech the knockdown. (and they always will because there's no reason not to if they are planning on doing a wakeup anyway).

So, superman into b32 to stuff armor is not a viable tactic. It only works against people who don't know what they're doing, or against moves that you shouldn't be trying to stuff anyway.

If you want to stuff the faster, safer wakeups, you are going to have to end your combo in b111+3 (which is fine because that's what you should be ending with anyway in the corner).

This string is a HKD which allows you to go for b32 much earlier, and therefore allows you to stuff something like Tanya's rekkas. The problem is, since you're doing it so much earlier, the Tanya player can easily see the b3 coming, and she will simply react to it and not do the wakeup. Now you've just wasted your opportunity for a mix-up on her knockdown and have given up your offensive momentum.

"Raiden is amazing at breaking armor" is just another in a long line of misconceptions from people who don't play the character at a high level. I can name 5 characters off the top of my head who have armor breakers that are actually practical in a high level match and I'm sure there's more that I don't know about.
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Technically speaking, my point still stands that he can break armor easily, and I pointed out it's weakness, so you didn't need to point it out. I was only saying that he does break armor well, but against a tech roll it doesn't matter.
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
brizzle said:
The blockstun on f2 is long. If they block it they have all the time in the world to realize your not going to go for the 2+4. Then they know the only real follow up you have after a blocked f2 is b11. Which wiffs half the time. Not very good stagger pressure if you ask me
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throw and d1 are frame traps after a blocked F2 or F2 2+4 And if you cancel them into EX lightning ball it frame traps as well and leaves you plus double digits if they block which frame traps into F2 again. you can also cancel into normal teleport to be -1 or neutral after F2 2+4 and be at perfect range for a F4 or cancel the F2 2+4 into EX teleport for more double digit plus frames that grant a free mix up that they can't armor out of

B1 is not his only option
 
SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
Wetdoba said:
throw and d1 are frame traps after a blocked F2 or F2 2+4 And if you cancel them into EX lightning ball it frame traps as well and leaves you plus double digits if they block which frame traps into F2 again. you can also cancel into normal teleport to be -1 or neutral after F2 2+4 and be at perfect range for a F4 or cancel the F2 2+4 into EX teleport for more double digit plus frames that grant a free mix up that they can't armor out of

B1 is not his only option
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Seriously? I'm gonna use that then.
 
BlackJackSnack

BlackJackSnack

Bags of mostly water
I'm gonna live or die by the character I think is the koolest. That being said I am gonna play Raiden no matter what.

In his current state however I can't believe that some people don't see the underlying weaknesses he has.

It would be nice for some things to be addressed but to be honest I have no idea if anything drastic will happen. (Not that he needs anything drastic)

Best thing to do is leave it up to the elder gods
 
WATCHD0G

WATCHD0G

Noob
BlackJackSnack said:
I'm gonna live or die by the character I think is the koolest. That being said I am gonna play Raiden no matter what.

In his current state however I can't believe that some people don't see the underlying weaknesses he has.

It would be nice for some things to be addressed but to be honest I have no idea if anything drastic will happen. (Not that he needs anything drastic)

Best thing to do is leave it up to the elder gods
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Agreed the only character i think i will have more fun playing as is Fujin.....if he comes out.
 
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B

brizzle

MKKI
Wetdoba said:
throw and d1 are frame traps after a blocked F2 or F2 2+4 And if you cancel them into EX lightning ball it frame traps as well and leaves you plus double digits if they block which frame traps into F2 again. you can also cancel into normal teleport to be -1 or neutral after F2 2+4 and be at perfect range for a F4 or cancel the F2 2+4 into EX teleport for more double digit plus frames that grant a free mix up that they can't armor out of

B1 is not his only option
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F2,24 is only slightly plus in two variations. In TG it's highly negative. His throw leaves them full screen where he can't continue pressure and has bad zoning. His d1 doesn't guarantee a mix up or a f2 meaning his pressure ends there. Not to mention they could just armor with all that blockstun to react.

No one is saying he doesn't have options just that they are sub par and can't compete with the top 10. Raiden is only opening you up with his highly unsafe armor, highly unsafe 50/50s or a bad throw. All the top Raidens know this but I gues they need tym to tell them they don't know their character lol
 
SonicNinja3532

SonicNinja3532

The Wannabe Prodigy
brizzle said:
F2,24 is only slightly plus in two variations. In TG it's highly neg

brizzle said:
F2,24 is only slightly plus in two variations. In TG it's highly negative. His throw leaves them full screen where he can't continue pressure and has bad zoning. His d1 doesn't guarantee a mix up or a f2 meaning his pressure ends there. Not to mention they could just armor with all that blockstun to react.

No one is saying he doesn't have options just that they are sub par and can't compete with the top 10. Raiden is only opening you up with his highly unsafe armor, highly unsafe 50/50s or a bad throw. All the top Raidens know this but I gues they need tym to tell them they don't know their character lol
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Out of curiosity, what do you guys feel his buffs should be if he gets more? I personally can't think of any besides going back to Vanilla Raiden(obviously without the scaling bug), fixing that god damn "mid" b1, and for me a personal request would be for standing 3 to be a mid. I agree that he needs better options, but the question is what they should properly be.
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A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
l
Wetdoba said:
throw and d1 are frame traps after a blocked F2 or F2 2+4 And if you cancel them into EX lightning ball it frame traps as well and leaves you plus double digits if they block which frame traps into F2 again. you can also cancel into normal teleport to be -1 or neutral after F2 2+4 and be at perfect range for a F4 or cancel the F2 2+4 into EX teleport for more double digit plus frames that grant a free mix up that they can't armor out of

B1 is not his only option
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I could probably count the amount of times I've blocked a f2 from Nivek on my fingers, cause I'm so busy hammering d4 all match.

:DOGE
 
buyacushun

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
I still haven't seen a legitimate reason for making f1 a high. Like I'm really curious what was wrong with it besides the block infinite (was it actually a block infinite on some characters?). Even now with MoS and displacer getting new strings.

Raiden's 50/50 is actually a reasonable 50/50 since he can't just pick an option and get best results regardless. Still a 50/50 though.
Superman makes for great corner carry.
Anti-airs are at least decent. (I play online so I'm too scared to do anything besides D2, which has been wonderful for me on both jump-ins and crossups.)

But everything else about his game is like his 50/50. He picks an option but instead of getting combo damage or punished or he touches you one time. It's not super bad and destroys him but it's not like he couldn't use a few adjustments here and there. Variation specific and base Raiden.

brizzle said:
All the top Raidens know this but I gues they need tym to tell them they don't know their character lol
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Why do people do this crap?
 
Nivek

Nivek

Athena guide me, the thunder God...
Wetdoba said:
Which is why Raidens low crushing mid got buffed
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you're not getting the point..your 2 option are two MID 15f and 24f!!
for example kung lao has 1 TRUE mid 11f and a low low-profile under 10f!!
and many more character have more or less like dvorah,cassie,jax .. etc
you just cant fight them in neutral!

and if you are correct with the f4 what do you get?? a hardknockdown.. what they get? a raiden -3 on their face, so its their turn..(at least we arent punishable now) and of course its too slow so it can be interrupted or armored easily..
 
LionHeart

LionHeart

Whisper within a sigh
Nivek said:
you're not getting the point..your 2 option are two MID 15f and 24f!!
for example kung lao has 1 TRUE mid 11f and a low low-profile under 10f!!
and many more character have more or less like dvorah,cassie,jax .. etc
you just cant fight them in neutral!

and if you are correct with the f4 what do you get?? a hardknockdown.. what they get? a raiden -3 on their face, so its their turn..(at least we arent punishable now) and of course its too slow so it can be interrupted or armored easily..
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Doesn't KL's f2 whiff on small-crouching characters from max distance? His true mid is 16f.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I love fighting against Raiden, but rarely do I see him anymore. I generally like to leave the creative designs of characters to the design team because I think they do a really good job, but I think the nerfs went too far on Raiden and Fisticuffs Johnny Cage. Both are hype to watch and fight against - and we rarely see them much anymore.
 
B

brizzle

MKKI
buyacushun said:
I still haven't seen a legitimate reason for making f1 a high. Like I'm really curious what was wrong with it besides the block infinite (was it actually a block infinite on some characters?). Even now with MoS and displacer getting new strings.

Raiden's 50/50 is actually a reasonable 50/50 since he can't just pick an option and get best results regardless. Still a 50/50 though.
Superman makes for great corner carry.
Anti-airs are at least decent. (I play online so I'm too scared to do anything besides D2, which has been wonderful for me on both jump-ins and crossups.)

But everything else about his game is like his 50/50. He picks an option but instead of getting combo damage or punished or he touches you one time. It's not super bad and destroys him but it's not like he couldn't use a few adjustments here and there. Variation specific and base Raiden.



Why do people do this crap?
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because top players know Raidens struggles in high level. I don't, I just say what I think based on casual lag filled online. But when the only tourney rep Raiden has left, all agree on the same weaknesses that the Raiden forums say, then that means something. The only people that still say Raiden is fine do not play him. Just like every time any other character is low tier/over nerfed
 
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Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
Jesus christ you guys act like hes worse of than Jason now and the biggest shitter in the game. Not even close. Nothing wrong with being a solid mid tier character that requires a little brainpower and maybe even a variation switch for a bad match up (gasp!), but I know thats not the kind of character most people want in this game they want easymode top tier. If Raiden started out Ferra Torr tier at the beginning instead of braindead and got buffed to his current status you would be praising him for being viable now like I am with FT, instead no one can get past the fact they they dont have F1 as a mid anymore so they cant use it as their one and only string
 
Big Pampering

Big Pampering

Noob
LionHeart said:
Doesn't KL's f2 whiff on small-crouching characters from max distance? His true mid is 16f.
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Yeh and you can low profile it unless you are really close. Trying to low profile kung lao is a bad idea though, because kung lao has b2 overhead, b321 and a really good d4.

B3 is 15 frames.
 
A F0xy Grampa

A F0xy Grampa

Problem X Promotions
Wetdoba said:
Jesus christ you guys act like hes worse of than Jason now and the biggest shitter in the game. Not even close. Nothing wrong with being a solid mid tier character that requires a little brainpower and maybe even a variation switch for a bad match up (gasp!), but I know thats not the kind of character most people want in this game they want easymode top tier. If Raiden started out Ferra Torr tier at the beginning instead of braindead and got buffed to his current status you would be praising him for being viable now like I am with FT, instead no one can get past the fact they they dont have F1 as a mid anymore so they cant use it as their one and only string
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Tell me, what characters do you think Raiden can compete with in the neutral game without resorting to retarded NJPs?
 
DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

DOOMSDAY-15RUS-

i'LL DESTROY YOU ALL
still have a 50/50 (not everyone had a 50/50 so why this nigga should have a safe one ? ), fast move across full screen, good meter gain on block, good damage in corner and opponent is always is in corner against him.

I think it's not a crime to be something like A tier.

I can understand he was nerfed but the problem is'nt he is too bad, they just should nerf more S and A+ tiers
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
A F0xy Grampa said:
Tell me, what characters do you think Raiden can compete with in the neutral game without resorting to retarded NJPs?
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Considering he only needs one touch in the neutral to put you in the corner and he has 3 variations that handle neutral differently I would say everyone, I think he has all the tools he needs to compete and I am sticking by that
 
Wetdoba

Wetdoba

All too easy...
DOOMSDAY-15RUS- said:
still have a 50/50 (not everyone had a 50/50 so why this nigga should have a safe one ? ), fast move across full screen, good meter gain on block, good damage in corner and opponent is always is in corner against him.

I think it's not a crime to be something like A tier.

I can understand he was nerfed but the problem is'nt he is too bad, they just should nerf more S and A+ tiers
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Can't you see this is a downplay thread? Get that logic out of here
 
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