General/Other - Raiden God of thunder has to stop falling to nerf abyss!!

SonicNinja3532 said:

I understand why I can't have the same weight behind my arguments, unfortunately, I can't go to any tournaments as there aren't any in Birmingham, England. Anyways, I never said that Liu Kang could stuff armor better, but he is the on person that can come close to stuffing armor as good as Raiden. Raiden is the best at stuffing armor. It seems I may have phrased it wrong, my apologies.

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That's where the UK's biggest tournament was lol. There'll also be another one coming up soon in October

BlackJackSnack said:

Option selects being removed, fine

F1 being a high, fine its still good for punishing and leads to corner carry

F4 being plus, who cares it's still slow as balls

His mids are still slow and don't lead into what they need and if you use f2,4 RC or b11 RC to set up a 5050 you still run the risk of running out of stamina making his combos having decent damage.

Ex shocker should stay high in my opinion, it is one of the best anti airs in the game. Plus you have ex db3 which hits mid and leads to 24 percent with corner carry.

In my opinion I would just like faster downpokes, not sure how much faster just something to not let him get bullied when someone is in your face.

He is still good character and is still awesome in the corner, however he does have weakness in the neutral and if you disagree you do not play the character.

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SonicNinja3532 said:

B12. B1 is a 9 mid that has two hits, and is spe

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SneakyTortoise said:

That's where the UK's biggest tournament was lol. There'll also be another one coming up soon in October

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I just missed VSF lol I was pretty pissed. What's the one in October though? I haven't found any mention of it.

SonicNinja3532 said:

I understand why I can't have the same weight behind my arguments, unfortunately, I can't go to any tournaments as there aren't any in Birmingham, England. Anyways, I never said that Liu Kang could stuff armor better, but he is the on person that can come close to stuffing armor as good as Raiden. Raiden is the best at stuffing armor. It seems I may have phrased it wrong, my apologies.

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Birmingham? The home of the largest active offline scene for MK in the UK? Who are also the organizers of VS Fighting?

Son...

infamy23 said:

lol, I know how Liu breaks armor, I'm asking you to elaborate on exactly how Raiden breaks armor.

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Oh lol my mistake. Obviously, short of

infamy23 said:

lol, I know how Liu breaks armor, I'm asking you to elaborate on exactly how Raiden breaks armor.

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Oh my mistake man Lol anyway all lighting strings in thunder god. I'm guessing you knew that already alongside the tech roll escape. But it does break armor.

STRYKIE said:

Birmingham? The home of the largest active offline scene for MK in the UK? Who are also the organizers of VS Fighting?

Son...

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Wait what? I was looking for locals and didn't find a thing... If you know any places, please help me find them. I'm damn near desperate to get some actual tournament play with skilled players and no lag. it would be a godsend for me.

SonicNinja3532 said:

I understand why I can't have the same weight behind my arguments, unfortunately, I can't go to any tournaments as there aren't any in Birmingham, England. Anyways, I never said that Liu Kang could stuff armor better, but he is the on person that can come close to stuffing armor as good as Raiden. Raiden is the best at stuffing armor. It seems I may have phrased it wrong, my apologies.

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There have been 2 tournaments in Birmingham since launch, gotta keep ya eyes peeled.

If you're able to get round Europe then we have red fight district in Amsterdam this coming weekend, you can get there pretty cheap too.

A F0xy Grampa said:

There have been 2 tournaments in Birmingham since launch, gotta keep ya eyes peeled.

If you're able to get round Europe then we have red fight district in Amsterdam this coming weekend, you can get there pretty cheap too.

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Unfortunately I only really wanted to go to the tourneys after both of them So I ended up missing them.
Currently, as I just started my GCSEs, international travel isn't gonna be on my agenda. But if the next tourney is around the weekend and near the holidays, I hopefully can make it. With that being said, I'm gonna be on the scout for local tournaments and trying to get to out to them if it's possible. Thank you for the suggestion though.

A F0xy Grampa said:

Why would anybody hate having a 9f, 9f mids in this game are good things to have.

He might lose a 6f punish, but look at KL, his fastest mid is 11, his fastest high is 8 and he has no 6f punisher, does fine without it.

Now imagine if Raiden retained his 9f mid and still has his 5050s, just the threat of having a mid in some situations will make his 5050s more applicable.

Anybody that says Raiden doesn't struggle in neutral is wrong, it's not even opinion it's fact, you can't play neutral all that well in this game with just highs and slow low pokes, and he doesn't have anything else to cover up that hole.

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Well maybe its player specific then. I much rather have the 6f high, 9f mid would guarantee pressure,but force me to give up punishes that Raiden players cling to at least keep them in the match up. I think making F1 9f is a nerf which is definitely not beneficial. In MK9 I sat and watch my character continue to be nerfed to garbage. Hector laughed while back when I said Yes,I still play Raiden. I really like Raiden as is honestly if they won't buff him leave him be. This is for Displacer mainly, but I run TG because I didn't want too lose every match between now and the tele port buff NRS half hazard blessed us with. You know what if my tele was a few frames faster and started up like it use to be, NRS can keep the poke. Ill take back all I said.

Airvidal said:

Just the same way you said it, no offense but I think the whole Raiden community needs to level up instead of asking for buffs. I agree Master of Storms and Displacer need buffs, but I see people want Thunder God buffed. I also agree he took too many hits from the consecutive patches but Thunder God is still good. He doesn't need to be overpowered or easier to use. People complain because his 6 frame mid became a high, when in reality it's still a mid. You gotta force/condition your opponent to respect it, and it's crazy that it's only 6 frames. Even then people complain. What they need is learn better spacing to put such a fast move to use. At times it would seem as if all they want is just a character that will give them free wins instead of working for them.

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Raiden has some of the better defensive tools in the game, those are his neutral game options, but they aren't as prevalent against better players because they know better than to throw out projectiles when they shouldn't, not to run into NJPs, not to jump for no reason, etc. Better players also know when to not respect your options if you have poor/slow mids/pokes.

Against better players, that won't run/jump into your armored specials or NJPs, Raiden gets his damage opportunities through reversal pressure, which means the opponent is more than likely going to be pressuring you first and will more than likely be getting more pressure opportunities throughout the match. Just thinking about it logically, the player applying more pressure is more than likely going to do more damage, therefore, more likely to win.

Just to be clear, I don't think the character is unviable, nor would I say he's one of the worst in the game, but I feel a lot of people are undervaluing just how important the neutral game is in higher level play. Raiden's tools were dominant in the earlier stages of the game's meta, but now that people realize how to play footsies, that's where most matches are won, and that's where Raiden is weak.

A F0xy Grampa said:

Jacqui has an 8f mid, still not useful in neutral because its got shitty range, same as Raiden.
Raidens 15f F2 isnt that strong of a mid either. When have you ever seen a Raiden player get milage from F2?

His D4 is more use, and thats not that good either. Perhaps having a 9f D4 would make Raiden really good.

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With that being said I think its a simple fix make 11 a mid? its 11f that way the opponent has options and the raiden player has options?

infamy23 said:

lol, I know how Liu breaks armor, I'm asking you to elaborate on exactly how Raiden breaks armor.

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Meaty thunder strings break armor.

Zoidberg747 said:

Meaty thunder strings break armor.

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Yep. I'd put Raiden right behind Liu for breaking armor. Raiden definitely does it easier. The timing is way more lenient. But if Liu gets that armor break he's going to get you in a BnB for nice damage.

Enexemander said:

Yep. I'd put Raiden right behind Liu for breaking armor. Raiden definitely does it easier. The timing is way more lenient. But if Liu gets that armor break he's going to get you in a BnB for nice damage.

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If Raiden breaks armor in the corner he gets a combo IIRC.

His corner game is still pretty strong. He struggles in neutral but once he hits you its to the corner where he does well. I think he is still probably in the upper half of the cast although he is way more manageable now. I wouldnt mind him getting a 6f poke but thats because my main Tanya wouldnt give a fuck lol.

So how good are Raiden's d1, d3 and d4?

Zoidberg747 said:

Meaty thunder strings break armor.

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Yes I know. I was trying to get him to go in to detail so that I could point out that it doesn't actually work against people who know the matchup.

Think about the moves that you would actually want to use this on. Sure, you can easily stuff Tremor, or Predator, but why would you? If you think those characters are gonna armor then just block and take your full combo. There's no point guessing with b32 in this situation and risk whiffing it over a delayed wakeup, or having them block it and giving up your corner advantage for the chance at a measly 25%

So when would you actually want to stuff someone's wakeup? Well, against wakeups that you can't punish on block. Jax's straight dash punch. Cage's shadow kick. Tanya's rekka, Jason's command grab, Goro's punchwalk etc...

The problem is, all of these types of moves are too fast to be stuffed out, if your opponent knows the matchup and does a tech roll after superman in the corner. If you try to go for b32[h] after a superman to stuff these characters, you will get beat by their armor if they tech the knockdown. (and they always will because there's no reason not to if they are planning on doing a wakeup anyway).

So, superman into b32 to stuff armor is not a viable tactic. It only works against people who don't know what they're doing, or against moves that you shouldn't be trying to stuff anyway.

If you want to stuff the faster, safer wakeups, you are going to have to end your combo in b111+3 (which is fine because that's what you should be ending with anyway in the corner).

This string is a HKD which allows you to go for b32 much earlier, and therefore allows you to stuff something like Tanya's rekkas. The problem is, since you're doing it so much earlier, the Tanya player can easily see the b3 coming, and she will simply react to it and not do the wakeup. Now you've just wasted your opportunity for a mix-up on her knockdown and have given up your offensive momentum.

"Raiden is amazing at breaking armor" is just another in a long line of misconceptions from people who don't play the character at a high level. I can name 5 characters off the top of my head who have armor breakers that are actually practical in a high level match and I'm sure there's more that I don't know about.

YoloRoll1stHit said:

So how good are Raiden's d1, d3 and d4?

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d1 & d3 both have 8frame startup but are -8 & -9 on block and d4 is only like -3 or 4 but startup is like 14 frames

What is all come down to is as @infamy23 says. He is a coin flip character. Sure the low is safe, but the oh is so unsafe its laughable. He has no plus frames like cage for pressure. He cannot stagger his normals like Lao because his normals are vary nagative or have long block stun. He has no oki like erron black because none of his Enders are hard knock down.

You can't condition to block low because b2, shocker sends them full screen without a hard knockdown. This leads Raiden at a disadvantage because he has no zoning either. So what can he do? Armor you on a read, hope you go to the corner and then what? No chip, no pressure, no hard knockdowns, only oh/low to mix up. And if you block the oh you'll probably get more damage on a punish then Raiden would deal to you lol.

A whiffed armor breaking electric string can be punished with jabs on wake up @A F0xy Grampa knows it..

brizzle said:

What is all come down to is as @infamy23 says. He is a coin flip character. Sure the low is safe, but the oh is so unsafe its laughable. He has no plus frames like cage for pressure. He cannot stagger his normals like Lao because his normals are vary nagative or have long block stun. He has no oki like erron black because none of his Enders are hard knock down.

You can't condition to block low because b2, shocker sends them full screen without a hard knockdown. This leads Raiden at a disadvantage because he has no zoning either. So what can he do? Armor you on a read, hope you go to the corner and then what? No chip, no pressure, no hard knockdowns, only oh/low to mix up. And if you block the oh you'll probably get more damage on a punish then Raiden would deal to you lol.

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F2 and F2 2+4 are both plus on block, I stagger this string all the time. EX lightning ball is plus double digits. Hit them with one superman to put them in the corner before you go crazy with you coin flipping and you wont have to worry about sending them full screen.

I GOT HANDS said:

Damn I just logged in saw this thread and was gonna post this to gank it off you lol

missed it by 6 minutes









Raiden F1 doesn't need to be a mid and he does not need Quan Chi damage. Can we be realistic here.



And for all the wrong reasons. You didn't grasp any of his weakenesses, you complained about his damage being 6/10 and his defensive options too and a bunch of other stuff that doesn't ruin him.

Raiden is a good character. Mid tier at worst. This character needs very little. Stop downplaying.

Play the fucking game lol

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Yeah he is still very decent! VERY decent! Not a bad character

Wetdoba said:

F2 and F2 2+4 are both plus on block, I stagger this string all the time. EX lightning ball is plus double digits. Hit them with one superman to put them in the corner before you go crazy with you coin flipping and you wont have to worry about sending them full screen.

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f2 is 15 frame and ex bolt is double or more! you cant play neutral with this frames..also f2 can be low profiled by pokes or small character on full range!

btw youre telling me tha he has strong antiair game,so as long you dont jump to raiden you are ok...you can beat him on the ground with his weak pokes..
boom anti-raiden strategy!!

Nivek said:

f2 is 15 frame and ex bolt is double or more! you cant play neutral with this frames..also f2 can be low profiled by pokes or small character on full range!

btw youre telling me tha he has strong antiair game,so as long you dont jump to raiden you are ok...you can beat him on the ground with his weak pokes..
boom anti-raiden strategy!!

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F4 goes over low pokes and is half screen and safe, this move needs to be used more, it was buffed for a reason

Vanilla Raiden got f*cked too in MK9 for no reason.

Wetdoba said:

F2 and F2 2+4 are both plus on block, I stagger this string all the time. EX lightning ball is plus double digits. Hit them with one superman to put them in the corner before you go crazy with you coin flipping and you wont have to worry about sending them full screen.

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The blockstun on f2 is long. If they block it they have all the time in the world to realize your not going to go for the 2+4. Then they know the only real follow up you have after a blocked f2 is b11. Which wiffs half the time. Not very good stagger pressure if you ask me