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Wondering why buff Quan's poke to 6 and not sub's?

GGA Jeremiah

GGA Jeremiah

Sheeva
Forget debating whether Quan needed to receive that buff or not, but what do you guys think the reasoning behind buffing someone like Quan with a 6 frame poke and leaving some characters like Sub Zero with 9 frame pokes?

Is NRS worried that a 6f poke on Sub is too powerful? If they do then why would a 6f poke on Sub be too strong?

Did they feel that Quan's defense was too weak, and maybe Subs was strong enough so they could leave them at 9?

Is it because Quan has not done well lately at tournaments?

Just wondering what your guys thoughts on this is.
 
JJV Phoenix

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
Because Sub has:
-the best d4 in the game
-a solid d3
-a fast, reliable armor move with which to get out of corner pressure via exploiting gaps, wake up, or reversal
-a fast parry in one variation


Sub didn't get put in block infinites by pressure characters, in fact no one aside from Quan did. They rectified that with the 6f d1, which is only +3 on hit and -9 on block. It only guarantees him a turn, maybe a throw, nothing else. His d1 exists separately from whatever other tools he has that leads people to question why he received it.
 
DT Tundra

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
JJV Phoenix said:
Because Sub has:
-the best d4 in the game
-a solid d3
-a fast, reliable armor move with which to get out of corner pressure via exploiting gaps, wake up, or reversal
-a fast parry in one variation


Sub didn't get put in block infinites by pressure characters, in fact no one aside from Quan did. They rectified that with the 6f d1, which is only +3 on hit and -9 on block. It only guarantees him a turn, maybe a throw, nothing else. His d1 exists separately from whatever other tools he has that leads people to question why he received it.
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I don't think it is THE best D4 but its certainly up there, and i dont think i have ever seen unbreakable's parry used as a positive point before (for good reason) but the rest is spot on. The narrative used to go "Quan has his unbelievable offensive game with his vortex because if you knock him down and pressure him he has no reliable armor or poke." But now people are questioning the buff because it made that narrative lopsided.
 
JJV Phoenix

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
Tundra_Arctos said:
I don't think it is THE best D4 but its certainly up there, and i dont think i have ever seen unbreakable's parry used as a positive point before (for good reason) but the rest is spot on. The narrative used to go "Quan has his unbelievable offensive game with his vortex because if you knock him down and pressure him he has no reliable armor or poke." But now people are questioning the buff because it made that narrative lopsided.
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That's a fair point, but downplayers shouldn't come into a balance discussion. That narrative may have made people feel better about asking for buffs given his offense but there is no truer hell than being bullied to death via chip by a pressure character in the corner and knowing your only hope is for them to screw up. I hate to side with the downplayers but he really did need something or we would've needed to nerf the pressure characters "into the ground" (their main defense being "but there are gaps!") for balance. I think Quan Chi's offensive tools are absolutely nuts and something should change (personally would like to see the hard-to-blockable go the way of parachute pants), but I think the 6f d1 was a better decision than making every pressure character eat dirt.

Fun fact: In a MU with QC Jax will occasionally say "You're the DEVIL!"...after bullying Quan to death with hella + frames in the corner.
 
DT Tundra

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
JJV Phoenix said:
That's a fair point, but downplayers shouldn't come into a balance discussion. That narrative may have made people feel better about asking for buffs given his offense but there is no truer hell than being bullied to death via chip by a pressure character in the corner and knowing your only hope is for them to screw up. I hate to side with the downplayers but he really did need something or we would've needed to nerf the pressure characters "into the ground" (their main defense being "but there are gaps!") for balance. I think Quan Chi's offensive tools are absolutely nuts and something should change (personally would like to see the hard-to-blockable go the way of parachute pants), but I think the 6f d1 was a better decision than making every pressure character eat dirt.

Fun fact: In a MU with QC Jax will occasionally say "You're the DEVIL!"...after bullying Quan to death with hella + frames in the corner.
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Here is where i have to respectfully bow out. I wont pretend that I have the knowledge of what Quan needs or doesn't as i have never played a game as quan in my life. I see the reasoning behind why they gave it to him and i see the reason why people dislike it. I agree that the hard-to-blockables have to go the way of the mullet, so once they tone that a bit i think he would be perfectly balanced. Im also going to admit something, I try to choose Sub for every matchup (minus Dvorah,yuck),but i get some sort of sick satisfaction from going FF liu kang against a Quan and then beating him down in the corner.
 
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JJV Phoenix

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
Tundra_Arctos said:
Here is where i have to respectfully bow out. I wont pretend that I have the knowledge of what Quan needs or doesn't as i have never played a game as quan in my life. I see the reasoning behind why they gave it to him and i see the reason why people dislike it. I agree that the hard-to-blockables have to go the way of the mullet, so once they tone that a bit i think he would be perfectly balanced. Im also going to admit something, I try to choose Sub for every matchup (minus Dvorah,yuck),but i get some sort of sick satisfaction from going FF liu kang against a Quan.
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I alt Quan and despise the players that use the hard-to-blockable loops online. You can block it offline with a little practice (though I still think it needs a larger frame buffer wherein one of the hits registers as a mid) but there's no way you're getting out of that in a lag quagmire. I give them one game to show me if they're a legit Quan main or a bandwagoning gimmicky bastard. If they loop me to death I just break out Hollywood Cassie and vortex their asses to death or A-list Johnny and watch them hope they practiced enough to utilize that 6f d1. :REO
 
M.D.

M.D.

Spammer. Crouch walk hater.
Sure, give Sub a 6 frame d1, and revert the clone back to mk9 functionality, where it wouldn't come out unless you were half a screen away. Then sure, I'll take it.
 
DT Tundra

DT Tundra

Steam Name:Tundra_Arctos Twitter: @tundraarctos
M.D. said:
Sure, give Sub a 6 frame d1, and revert the clone back to mk9 functionality, where it wouldn't come out unless you were half a screen away. Then sure, I'll take it.
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I Dont think hes asking for a sub buff, just curious as to why Quan got a 6f poke while others did not. He just happened to use Sub as an unfortunate example as Sub is on very shaky ground with a lot of people here at TYM.
 
The_Tile

The_Tile

Your hole is mine!
GGA Jeremiah said:
Reading this still gets me emo that Jason was nerfed and Quan Chi was buffed during that big patch. They did hotfix a buff to Jason later, which means they are starting to get back on track. But my #1 major problem was that they nerfed Jason's fun :(
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It's not Quan's fault NRS took a big steaming pile of feces all over Jason's face. Leave Quan alone.
 
JJV Phoenix

JJV Phoenix

I'm not Vak goddamnit
haketh said:
Nah, it can be fine depending on character tools


If they are that's fine with that characters design IMO
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Good defense should be rewarded, and bad defense should be punished (maybe not full combo punished, but you should at least lose your turn). Same for using low pokes as an offensive tool; you shouldn't be rewarded when your opponent makes a correct read.
 
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