Match-Up Discussion - Goro Buffs Goro needs so he doesn't lose to the whole cast

loogie said:

you can say that to a lot of variations in the game, fact is that most characters have one preferred variation over the other two.

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i didn't ask for kw buffs i just wanna the other to variations to just be playable...now the other 2 are pure shit,and in goro just like every other char i wanna alla variations to be playable...not top tier,just playable...and i play with metzos now and then,and i know how strong kw is...i also play kw,and i really like his playstyle...just the other two variations need buffs or adjastments...

4x4lo8o said:

@loogie What character are you fighting Goro with?

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Shinnok all vars
Sub GM, Cryo

loogie said:

doesn't F3 into punchwalk confirm into a combo?
why do you need d4 PW to combo? no character is able to convert a poke into a combo anyway, with that logic I would also like to ask for d4 into iceball for Sub so every counterpoke is a full combo punish on the opponent.

you don't know it, and you won't believe it and I will probably get flamed now for saying this but Goro is in no way a low tier character and his normal are one of the best in the game. I would suggest that you try to whiff punish his F3 ... and please list down list of moves he has that are punishable. there is nothing you can punish him for, he is a very safe character upclose, midscreen (f3 range) or fullscreen (less safe but still ok)
I have been playing @Metzos for the past 2 days and I am telling you Goro is in the top half of the tier list and not a bottom 5. if anything he needs a nerf on his ex punchwalk, either take away the multiple hits of armor or make it enough negative on block to get a punish.
if he has a bar of meter, you cannot press buttons, and no armored reversal would work (outside of xrays).
yeah, and corner is death ...

conclusion, Goro is a very good character and needs zero buffs - if anything he needs adjustments so he doesn't end up being broken in a while.

but knowing TYM, and how NRS react, I expect more buffs coming Goro's way ... which is sad, because I haven't seen anyone using the character to it's full potential at a HIGH LEVEL other than @Metzos and he is not in the American tournament scene for the community to realize that Goro is not a low tier character, at least not anymore.

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Please do not say a character is good when you do not play this character.

I'm not saying Goro is useless and unplayable because he isn't. The worst character in this game is still a threat, but still loses to 95% percent off the cast.

And if you are losing to Goro with Imposter or Bone Shaper Shinnok then you do not know the matchup.

Those are some of Goro's worst matchups. Maybe he is just a better player then you.

So please do not come into a character sub forum and up play a character because you seem to be unaware of the matchup.

And if you want high level Goro play watch
Myself
@BunLantern
Khaotic Armor
@FOREVER KING
@Decay

There are plenty of High level Goro players you just have to look for them.

AoK Ryan said:

Please do not say a character is good when you do not play this character.

I'm not saying Goro is useless and unplayable because he isn't. The worst character in this game is still a threat, but still loses to 95% percent off the cast.

And if you are losing to Goro with Imposter or Bone Shaper Shinnok then you do not know the matchup.

Those are some of Goro's worst matchups. Maybe he is just a better player then you.

So please do not come into a character sub forum and up play a character because you seem to be unaware of the matchup.

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when you say a character is a threat but still loses to everyone, it's contradictory ... what is making him a threat and why is then losing to everybody - I want to hear your reasoning. to me, Goro is a very good character with very good normal and a very good mixup game.
I don't play Goro but have played enough against Goro to know his strengths.

can you list down this 95% please and explain the reasons
have you played this 95% at a high level, with your high level Goro and came to this conclusion?

FYI: ex punchwalk completely nullifies hellsparks ... and u1/u2 beats tricky teleport. if you've played the matchup yourself, you'd know this as well.

loogie said:

when you say a character is a threat but still loses to everyone, it's contradictory ... what is making him a threat and why is then losing to everybody - I want to hear your reasoning. to me, Goro is a very good character with very good normal and a very good mixup game.
I don't play Goro but have played enough against Goro to know his strengths.

can you list down this 95% please and explain the reasons
have you played this 95% at a high level, with your high level Goro and came to this conclusion?

FYI: ex punchwalk completely nullifies hellsparks ... and u1/u2 beats tricky teleport. if you've played the matchup yourself, you'd know this as well.

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So you're saying Goro needs meter in order to even contest a character's regular spacing/zoning tool...sooooo how is that not a bad match-up again?

As on-disc, locked pre-order DLC, Goro should have been the Quan Chi of this game.

I had such high hopes. Goro is a lot of fun to play and I originally planned to have him pocketed, but they just didn't fully deliver with him.

Thankfully though, it's not too late to save the prince.

EVB SomeCubanGuy said:

So you're saying Goro needs meter in order to even contest a character's regular spacing/zoning tool...sooooo how is that not a bad match-up again?

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Meter for combo

EVB SomeCubanGuy said:

So you're saying Goro needs meter in order to even contest a character's regular spacing/zoning tool...sooooo how is that not a bad match-up again?

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try this:
f214 punchwalk and let me know how much meter it builds for Goro

he gets in on you, and he will build that meter - it's not like he is going through 2 rounds of no meter. plus, just having a bar of meter makes you respect ex punchwalk

loogie said:

try this:
f214 punchwalk and let me know how much meter it builds for Goro

he gets in on you, and he will build that meter - it's not like he is going through 2 rounds of no meter. plus, just having a bar of meter makes you respect ex punchwalk

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So a 21 frame move is what you are worried about? Please stop. 21 FRAMES!!!!!!

Also I play against the best Imposter Shinnok in @ArmedCalf so yes, I do know the matchup. And why would you randomly through out hell sparks if he is in PW range?

That is matchup knowledge you are unaware of. I also use Shinnok so I am familiar with both characters.

And if you want to know what characters Goro loses to feel free to look at the YOMI matchup chart, they have it pretty good.

If FK, Bun, Decay and myself who are all high level Goro mains say that he loses to pretty much the entire cast, I would take our word since we actually play our character.

AoK Ryan said:

So a 21 frame move is what you are worried about? Please stop. 21 FRAMES!!!!!!

Also I play against the best Imposter Shinnok in @ArmedCalf so yes, I do know the matchup. And why would you randomly through out hell sparks if he is in PW range?

That is matchup knowledge you are unaware of. I also use Shinnok so I am familiar with both characters.

And if you want to know what characters Goro loses to feel free to look at the YOMI matchup chart, they have it pretty good.

If FK, Bun, Decay and myself who are all high level Goro mains say that he loses to pretty much the entire cast, I would take our word since we actually play our character.

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why would you throw out a raw f214 in the neutral... that is just baffling, you would however do it on knockdowns - I don't need to tell you that. I only gave that as an example of a good meter building tool since the response was that he needs meter to contest hellsparks.

I watched your matches, and don't consider you at @Metzos level at all, same goes for ForeverKing not being at Metzos' level when playing Goro.
you still have not answered my question, why is it that he loses to 95% of the cast? match footage would help too.
you also have not answered whether a whiffed f3 is punishable

AoK Ryan said:

Please do not say a character is good when you do not play this character.

I'm not saying Goro is useless and unplayable because he isn't. The worst character in this game is still a threat, but still loses to 95% percent off the cast.

And if you are losing to Goro with Imposter or Bone Shaper Shinnok then you do not know the matchup.

Those are some of Goro's worst matchups. Maybe he is just a better player then you.

So please do not come into a character sub forum and up play a character because you seem to be unaware of the matchup.

And if you want high level Goro play watch
Myself
@BunLantern
Khaotic Armor
@FOREVER KING
@Decay

There are plenty of High level Goro players you just have to look for them.

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And this is why i rarely post on TYM these days. "but still loses to 95% off the cast". According to whom?

All i keep reading is "Goro loses this MU and Goro loses that MU" with no explanation what so ever. Before the patch his greatest issues were:

Lack of AA's, which they gave him. U1/u2 which leads to a shit load of dmg and its probably the best anti-cross up normal in the game AND it can be used for regular AA'ing too, but d2 as well, since they nerfed jump in attacks in the game.

B12u2 was a below average string before the patch, they fixed that. Now Goro has a pretty godlike up close string, which cannot be low profiled, is among the fastest mid hit normals in the game, cannot be punished, is plus on block and it launches if you hit confirm it. Now it also has a very good hitbox, since it catches opponents in the air, if they try to jump out of Goro's face after they are slightly minus on block (prime example is KL's any string to a regular hat. If he tries to jump out, or continue pressure, he will get hit by b12u2 and the ENTIRE string connects). B121 is also plus on block and from there Goro can start his offense again, if opponent blocks b12.

Stomp was slow as hell with shitty recovery on whiff. They fixed that as well. Its a lot harder now to punish a stomp on whiff, plus it has a better hitbox and tracking as well now AND its slightly faster.

The buffs Goro received after the patch are ENORMOUS, especially in KW variation.

I agree that Shinnok, QC, KL and Tanya are still his worst MU's (although they are highly winnable after the patch), but all of his other MU's are probably 5-5's or better.

It seems to me that you want a character with solutions to anything and no thinking required at all. I hope that NRS does not hear these thoughts because Goro now is fine (at least KW). Give him more time.


P.S: You want f3 to have 11 frames startup? Are you serious? Have you even checked the recovery frames on whiff, the hitbox AND the active frames this move has? If you were a high Goro player as you claim, you wouldnt have made the post you made.

Post edited.

Instead of name dropping who you play with AoK Ryan, why don't you offer more details?

Much as you say this guy could be getting outplayed, couldn't the same thing be happening to you?

Look, simply dismissing someone with, "LOL, you've never played with my training partners, you just don't know" contributes exactly 0 productive discussion.

If I came into this thread wanting to learn about Goro(and I did), your post wouldn't have told me much of anything.

I refuse to believe that a character that was buffed as much as this one was is still bad.

Poor Jason probably has it a LOT worse than Goro these days.

Goro loses to:
KL
Kitana
Scorpion
Mileena
Takeda
Cassie
Jacqui
Tanya
Predator
Shinnok
Kano
Liu Kang
Ermac
Reptile
D'Vorah
Quan Chi
Tremor.

At best 4-6 matchups.

That seems like alot of the cast to me. also yes I would like to have a faster advancing mid to actually whiff punish moves, and not with D4 Punchwalk.

Rude said:

Instead of name dropping who you play with AoK Ryan, why don't you offer more details?

Much as you say this guy could be getting outplayed, couldn't the same thing be happening to you?

Look, simply dismissing someone with, "LOL, you've never played with my training partners, you just don't know" contributes exactly 0 productive discussion.

If I came into this thread wanting to learn about Goro(and I did), your post wouldn't have told me much of anything.

I refuse to believe that a character that was buffed as much as this one was is still bad.

Poor Jason probably has it a LOT worse than Goro these days.

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I only dropped Calfs name because he stated that I was unaware of the matchup which is false information, I simply stated whom I play that specific matchup with.

AoK Ryan said:

Goro loses to:
KL
Kitana
Scorpion
Mileena
Takeda
Cassie
Jacqui
Tanya
Predator
Shinnok
Kano
Liu Kang
Ermac
Reptile
D'Vorah
Quan Chi
Tremor.

At best 4-6 matchups.

That seems like alot of the cast to me. also yes I would like to have a faster advancing mid to actually whiff punish moves, and not with D4 Punchwalk.

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Post reasons as to why he loses against the characters you named.

AoK Ryan said:

I only dropped Calfs name because he stated that I was unaware of the matchup which is false information, I simply stated whom I play that specific matchup with.

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You could have just as easily went into the nuance of the match up, and he probably would have been more convinced.

At least, that's how I prove my knowledge of fighting a character with my main. By talking about the nuances of the match.

To each his own, I guess.

When TYM finallly learns what a 6-4 match actually means, these discussions will be a lot more constructive.

Guile vs Bison is 6-4. Enough said. Now go watch Tampa Bison vs Dieminion at TFC. If you honestly think Goro has it that bad against 95% of the cast then I dunno what to say.

Off topic but his f213 string isn't all that good. 121 punch walk builds the same exact meter as f213 punch walk

Goro is good. I think he needs a small Tweak on his run, make his low not have a gap, and at least one string in TF a true block string with his flame breath

infamy23 said:

When TYM finallly learns what a 6-4 match actually means, these discussions will be a lot more constructive.

Guile vs Bison is 6-4. Enough said. Now go watch Tampa Bison vs Dieminion at TFC. If you honestly think Goro has it that bad against 95% of the cast then I dunno what to say.

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Nobody is saying Goro is bad. I am not sure HOW MANY TIMES I have to say this. The worst character in this game in still VIABLE. This is not MK9 / Injustice.

There is no Baraka or Sheeva in this game.

Goro loses to:

• KL - No need to explain all Goro players agree.
• Kitana - Out Zoned, IAF or any fans stop Goro from advancing with out taking a risk.
• Scorpion - Even after the U1/U2 Buff Goro still has issues with JIKs due the the vertical hitbox of the move. This could be closer to a 5-5
• Mileena - Out zoned, Cannot stomp. Cannot whiff anything due to her roll. Zoned out with Sias
• Takeda - Ronin Specifically - Not able to zone due to reflect or "Piecering Beam" that absorbs projectiles. Longer ranges normals. therefore Goro has to rely on MB Punchwalk
• Cassie - Outzoned, Better space Control. Funky hitbox pretty much rules out SG in this matchup.
• Jacqui - Outzone in Full Auto, cannot not do anything just advance and with Goros slow walkspeed it takes him a while.
• Tanya - No need to explain all Goro players agree.
• Predator - HQT Goro gets outzone fairly easy in this matchup, but Goro does have the advantage up close. But the zoning is really hard to get passed.
• Shinnok - No need to explain all Goro players agree.
• Kano - Fast Mid Knifes makes it hard for Goro to advance, with all of the AA buffs this character received pretty much rules out jumping in aswell.
• Liu Kang - One of the few characters that can break Goro Ex Punchwalk Armor if done correctly. Also Good Zoning keeps Goro out fairly easy.
• Ermac - One of his worst matchups IMO. Not able to do anything full screen because the risk of a trade with Soul Ball or Teleport, The risk reward is not there. Ermac does 40% Meterless and a stomp or projectile do not trade well.
• Reptile - Decent Zoning, just enough to make Goro have to come in and fight up close. Reptile can punish stomp with Armored Launcher and send you back full screen.
• D'Vorah - Better neutral game, better space control.
• Quan Chi - No need to explain all Goro players agree.
• Tremor - Goro can do nothing full screen against this character, has to get up close while Tremor can also full combo punish Telestomp pretty easy in Crystalline. Pretty much on reaction

I'm sorry, I'm not an actual Goro player although I do use him, but how can you come to the conclusion that pretty much all of his matchups are 4-6's when the patch was released like 2 fucking weeks ago? All your complaining sounds like you just want a Bane level buff where he skyrockets to top 10 in a short amount of time. I'm not doubting your skill as a player, but when other Goro mains contest your opinion maybe it's time to reconsider.

Rude said:

Instead of name dropping who you play with AoK Ryan, why don't you offer more details?


Poor Jason probably has it a LOT worse than Goro these days.

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I play both characters and God yes, that he does lol.

DownfouralitY said:

I'm sorry, I'm not an actual Goro player although I do use him, but how can you come to the conclusion that pretty much all of his matchups are 4-6's when the patch was released like 2 fucking weeks ago? All your complaining sounds like you just want a Bane level buff where he skyrockets to top 10 in a short amount of time. I'm not doubting your skill as a player, but when other Goro mains contest your opinion maybe it's time to reconsider.

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Because some of these buffs did not address the problems he has had since day 1.

He has better meter management now, that is a given. A good Anti Air now. But nothing about his full screen game, when Goro is on the defense. Normals were not changed to be faster or further advancing. B12U2 Got fixed. Stomp is still punishable just not as easy.

I love the buffs he has received, like I have stated multiple times in this thread, If Goro had a faster F2 or F3 I would be complete with this character. I am not asking for buffs that would make him top tier. Just something that would help his neutral game more.

Maybe I'm playing Goro differently, but I find him to be a heavily meter dependent counter character, unlike a lot of characters in the game, you can't just flowchart your way through the match, you have to react to what they are doing, he definitely has the tools to win, He just has to use them and his meter at the right time or he will likely lose.

AoK Ryan said:

Because some of these buffs did not address the problems he has had since day 1.

He has better meter management now, that is a given. A good Anti Air now. But nothing about his full screen game, when Goro is on the defense. Normals were not changed to be faster or further advancing. B12U2 Got fixed. Stomp is still punishable just not as easy.

I love the buffs he has received, like I have stated multiple times in this thread, If Goro had a faster F2 or F3 I would be complete with this character. I am not asking for buffs that would make him top tier. Just something that would help his neutral game more.

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Jesus

F3 is already very good
He does have d4, d1, f4 ok it is slow but once opponent is respecting the f3 there is no way they are reacting that easily to an f4 which is +2 on blk

And why does every character have to have every option there is in the game - let this not be another Kitana-style-buff-request diatribe please. Kuatan does well from fullscreen, and stands his own.

like @Metzos explained, the buffs Goro got were pretty significant and have helped immensely his viability