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Match-Up Discussion - Goro Buffs Goro needs so he doesn't lose to the whole cast

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BunLantern

BunLantern

Long live b13 minigun
I'm all for TF and actually prefer it to his other 2 variations but let's not get out of hand here.

Liu Kang, Kitana, Cassie, HQT Pred, Full Auto Jacqui, Kano, Ermac, GrandMaster Sub Zero, Piercing Mileena, and Kenshi are all characters who outzone TF Goro. Not saying the above characters are better, but they clearly outzone TF Goro
 
chief713

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
I don't think Goro is built to sit there and have a fireball war. Not saying he outzones characters, just that it's not something Goro should be losing to a lot as, against most chars, he has the tools to stop it.
 
DarkSomethinG

DarkSomethinG

Noob
Vintagesoul said:
I dunno about pre patch, cause I didn't play much Goro before the Gorolives patch, but I assure you that TF has a very solid zoning game. I reckon there are not more than 5 characters in the game who can clearly outzone TF Goro.

- It doesn't matter that Flameball can be ducked. Outside of Cassie's B1 range, Flameball is close to neutral on whiff. At full screen, it is very plus on whiff. This is the key to everything. Unless Goro is fighting a teleporter, someone with a faster projectile (faster than 17 frames), or someone that has a projectile that's fast and knocksdown on trade (That's maybe just Quan Chi?), Goro has a clear advantage in the zoning game- he can walk back and lob FBs until the opponent overextends himself and eats f3.

- Flameball is very high and very hard to jump. This means that the opponent has to commit to jumping. If they guessed wrong and jumped when TF didn't throw a FB, they now eat up to 28% no meter damage thanks to the buffed U1/2.

All in all I feel that TF has a slight zoning advantage over KW when it comes to non teleporters, and a much better zoning game when it comes to teleporters (KW quake is free to jump teleports).
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look as i explained goro is nor a zoning char...read my post again...even if you want to believe that he is good at zoning(and lets suppose he is good),ZONING IS NOT GOOD AT MKX!!!I can't put it any simpler...yeah ok i give you that he has better zoning,but that does not make him good...and again,against better zoners or teleporters he is crap cause he lose even to the thing he is supposed to be good...and KW does not have to zone,he don't have a reason to throw fbs he just need to get in...you just gave me 2 points that show that he is a good zoner.i gave you 5 points why this is not comparable to KW tools...but whatever,feel free to play what u like,for the moment i just hope TF to get buffs in order to be playable...
 
V

Vintagesoul

Noob
BunLantern said:
I'm all for TF and actually prefer it to his other 2 variations but let's not get out of hand here.

Liu Kang, Kitana, Cassie, HQT Pred, Full Auto Jacqui, Kano, Ermac, GrandMaster Sub Zero, Piercing Mileena, and Kenshi are all characters who outzone TF Goro. Not saying the above characters are better, but they clearly outzone TF Goro
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Just to clarify, when I say Goro doesn't get significantly outzoned, I mean that Goro isn't forced to go in, and he can still use FB/stomp to match the opponent's zoning until he gets a knock down.

Of those characters, I'll comment on those that I have some experience against:

- Cassie in no way outzones Goro with that pea shooter. I can only disagree with you outright on this one. She beats Goro once she gets into b1 range, but outside of that you're going to have to explain this one to me.

- FA Jacqui outzones Goro, but not significantly. Duck handcannon, return fire. If she shoots again, the trade is in Goro's favour. As long as you get trades in your favour, she's forced to run in.

- Liu Kang (at least DF Liu, haven't fought a FF yet) also loses on trades. Liu actually stands up immediately after a low fireball. In my experience, low fireballs trade with FB as long as Goro fires first.

- Ermac is a zoning match up that's actually pretty even for both players. Ermac only gets one good shot every few seconds and teleports can't be done on reaction to Flameball.

DarkSomethinG said:
look as i explained goro is nor a zoning char...read my post again...even if you want to believe that he is good at zoning(and lets suppose he is good),ZONING IS NOT GOOD AT MKX!!!I can't put it any simpler...yeah ok i give you that he has better zoning,but that does not make him good...and again,against better zoners or teleporters he is crap cause he lose even to the thing he is supposed to be good...and KW does not have to zone,he don't have a reason to throw fbs he just need to get in...you just gave me 2 points that show that he is a good zoner.i gave you 5 points why this is not comparable to KW tools...but whatever,feel free to play what u like,for the moment i just hope TF to get buffs in order to be playable...
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I'm not suggesting that TF wins alone by zoning. What I'm saying is that TF's zoning is good enough that most characters need to take some risks spacing wise (E.g, jump/run/slide attack) to get in on Goro... and that's normally when they run into a f3, d4, vertical jump bunch or even a raw Ex PW.
 
DarkSomethinG

DarkSomethinG

Noob
Vintagesoul said:
Just to clarify, when I say Goro doesn't get significantly outzoned, I mean that Goro isn't forced to go in, and he can still use FB/stomp to match the opponent's zoning until he gets a knock down.

Of those characters, I'll comment on those that I have some experience against:

- Cassie in no way outzones Goro with that pea shooter. I can only disagree with you outright on this one. She beats Goro once she gets into b1 range, but outside of that you're going to have to explain this one to me.

- FA Jacqui outzones Goro, but not significantly. Duck handcannon, return fire. If she shoots again, the trade is in Goro's favour. As long as you get trades in your favour, she's forced to run in.

- Liu Kang (at least DF Liu, haven't fought a FF yet) also loses on trades. Liu actually stands up immediately after a low fireball. In my experience, low fireballs trade with FB as long as Goro fires first.

- Ermac is a zoning match up that's actually pretty even for both players. Ermac only gets one good shot every few seconds and teleports can't be done on reaction to Flameball.



I'm not suggesting that TF wins alone by zoning. What I'm saying is that TF's zoning is good enough that most characters need to take some risks spacing wise (E.g, jump/run/slide attack) to get in on Goro... and that's normally when they run into a f3, d4, vertical jump bunch or even a raw Ex PW.
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i don't think that those two variations are even close in power and i don't see why someone would take a risk and jump or anything against a fireball that is duckable(ofc you can jump the low fb on reaction).when someone is at jump range and you whiff a fb,TF is at a disadvantage.and f3 can be low profiled pretty easilly...
 
ForeverKing

ForeverKing

Patreon.com/MK_ForeverKing
chief713 said:
I don't think Goro is built to sit there and have a fireball war. Not saying he outzones characters, just that it's not something Goro should be losing to a lot as, against most chars, he has the tools to stop it.
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They should buff his fireballs to make him able to outzone characters and force characters to come to him. Faster startup and faster recovery on all his fireballs would be nice
 
Alright RyRy

Alright RyRy

Florida Kombat
Honestly Goro maybe beats 1 or 2 certain variations, not a character as a whole.

While these buffs were amazing, they did not address his main problem which was his normals. The lack of a faster mid really hurts this character, characters like Sub, Tanya, Cassie just a few off my head have 12 frame or less advancing mids that lead into 35-40% easily, Goro has to whiff punish with a 16f or a 21f advancing mid since he run speed is by far the worst in the game. While his pokes are amazing, they do not confirm into anything. D4xPW should not be what Goro relies on to whiff punish while 90% of the cast can pretty easily whiff punish for full combos. (Or if playing KW chest lunge is now a true mid so that is an option.)

I have been saying this since the first days of the games release, and I will continue to say this. Up close his normals are Ok, but a neutral range they are awful.

This is the last thing Goro needs F3 or F2 11-12 frames. Please make this happen. So Goro can compete with the rest of the cast.
 
chief713

chief713

Vertebral Subluxationist
FOREVER KING said:
They should buff his fireballs to make him able to outzone characters and force characters to come to him. Faster startup and faster recovery on all his fireballs would be nice
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I think Flame ball in TF is fine. I would give the ground flames faster startup/recovery though and make the far ground flame go full screen instead of 3/4. It should be like Predator's beams. The fireball in KW is fine since Goro has GP; I wouldn't mind it being a bit faster but it does it's job as a deterrent to jumping over GP. In fangs, I honestly think his fireball should hit mid. That variation has no screen presence unless Goro is directly on top of you.

Also, I 100% agree with Ryan's post above. Cancelling everything into safe punch walk that can be hit confirmed into a combo sounds really awesome and it is, until the opponent learns that Goro has very few strings/buttons that are true blockstrings into PW. Anybody with a safe armor move has no reason not to contest Goro's pokes. And then we're right back to wasting meter to guess with EX PW.
 
juicepouch

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
DarkSomethinG said:
i don't think that those two variations are even close in power and i don't see why someone would take a risk and jump or anything against a fireball that is duckable(ofc you can jump the low fb on reaction).when someone is at jump range and you whiff a fb,TF is at a disadvantage.and f3 can be low profiled pretty easilly...
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why are you throwing out fireballs at jump range in the first place

Just because he has a fireball doesn't mean you need to spam it when you know you can get punished for it
 
juicepouch

juicepouch

blink-182 enthusiast
DarkSomethinG said:
first look at what i replied,then you will understand...
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Drop the condescension, that shit gets old fast.

Mortal Komhat said:
because he hasn't proven to me he can beat it yet.

also varying timing on fireballs makes them harder to react to. you also trade favorably vs. certain characters.
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naturally but if you shoot in a predictable pattern you're going to get blown up, which is more so what I was asking. TF isn't bad because you can't just try and play like vanilla sagat and shoot fireball all game. It might be bad but it isn't bad because of a fault in player strategy
 
loogie

loogie

Noob
AoK Ryan said:
Honestly Goro maybe beats 1 or 2 certain variations, not a character as a whole.

While these buffs were amazing, they did not address his main problem which was his normals. The lack of a faster mid really hurts this character, characters like Sub, Tanya, Cassie just a few off my head have 12 frame or less advancing mids that lead into 35-40% easily, Goro has to whiff punish with a 16f or a 21f advancing mid since he run speed is by far the worst in the game. While his pokes are amazing, they do not confirm into anything. D4xPW should not be what Goro relies on to whiff punish while 90% of the cast can pretty easily whiff punish for full combos. (Or if playing KW chest lunge is now a true mid so that is an option.)

I have been saying this since the first days of the games release, and I will continue to say this. Up close his normals are Ok, but a neutral range they are awful.

This is the last thing Goro needs F3 or F2 11-12 frames. Please make this happen. So Goro can compete with the rest of the cast.
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doesn't F3 into punchwalk confirm into a combo?
why do you need d4 PW to combo? no character is able to convert a poke into a combo anyway, with that logic I would also like to ask for d4 into iceball for Sub so every counterpoke is a full combo punish on the opponent.

you don't know it, and you won't believe it and I will probably get flamed now for saying this but Goro is in no way a low tier character and his normal are one of the best in the game. I would suggest that you try to whiff punish his F3 ... and please list down list of moves he has that are punishable. there is nothing you can punish him for, he is a very safe character upclose, midscreen (f3 range) or fullscreen (less safe but still ok)
I have been playing @Metzos for the past 2 days and I am telling you Goro is in the top half of the tier list and not a bottom 5. if anything he needs a nerf on his ex punchwalk, either take away the multiple hits of armor or make it enough negative on block to get a punish.
if he has a bar of meter, you cannot press buttons, and no armored reversal would work (outside of xrays).
yeah, and corner is death ...

conclusion, Goro is a very good character and needs zero buffs - if anything he needs adjustments so he doesn't end up being broken in a while.

but knowing TYM, and how NRS react, I expect more buffs coming Goro's way ... which is sad, because I haven't seen anyone using the character to it's full potential at a HIGH LEVEL other than @Metzos and he is not in the American tournament scene for the community to realize that Goro is not a low tier character, at least not anymore.
 
DarkSomethinG

DarkSomethinG

Noob
loogie said:
doesn't F3 into punchwalk confirm into a combo?
why do you need d4 PW to combo? no character is able to convert a poke into a combo anyway, with that logic I would also like to ask for d4 into iceball for Sub so every counterpoke is a full combo punish on the opponent.

you don't know it, and you won't believe it and I will probably get flamed now for saying this but Goro is in no way a low tier character and his normal are one of the best in the game. I would suggest that you try to whiff punish his F3 ... and please list down list of moves he has that are punishable. there is nothing you can punish him for, he is a very safe character upclose, midscreen (f3 range) or fullscreen (less safe but still ok)
I have been playing @Metzos for the past 2 days and I am telling you Goro is in the top half of the tier list and not a bottom 5. if anything he needs a nerf on his ex punchwalk, either take away the multiple hits of armor or make it enough negative on block to get a punish.
if he has a bar of meter, you cannot press buttons, and no armored reversal would work (outside of xrays).
yeah, and corner is death ...

conclusion, Goro is a very good character and needs zero buffs - if anything he needs adjustments so he doesn't end up being broken in a while.

but knowing TYM, and how NRS react, I expect more buffs coming Goro's way ... which is sad, because I haven't seen anyone using the character to it's full potential at a HIGH LEVEL other than @Metzos and he is not in the American tournament scene for the community to realize that Goro is not a low tier character, at least not anymore.
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kw is a good variation but the other 2 are pure shit...
 
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