Breakthrough - Scorpion D4 hit at point blank range only guarantees F3. Max range you get nothing, armour beats all options

This is something that not many seem to know of, I mentioned this to my local training partners and it instantly changed match ups drastically. @theGabStandard @Phosferrax

I do want to test this against the whole cast to see just exactly how devastating this is for Scorpion but that's going to take a lot of time so if anyone can help out that would be great. If you do want to test it for a particular character also keep in mind that at max range you can be armoured, so any character with an armoured launcher can blow up both B1 and F3 follow ups.

I thought of using F2 as well when hitting a D4 point blank but this can also be armoured as it's a few frames slower. It's a tight window but is possible. F3 is the only thing that will jail off a D4 on hit point blank, which is better than nothing I guess.

@Eddy Wang
@YOMI MITYEAP
@Slips
@STRYKIE
@Triplswing

TL: DR Version

Max range on hit D4 you do not have to respect any of scoprions options, point blank range his only guaranteed follow up is F3 which outside of Hellfire will leave you at -8 right next to your opponent.

Update.

Max range D4 on hit, every single option Scorpion has can be armoured. Nothing will jail.

Point blank range on hit, every option can be back dashed, character specific situations will get him punished. For example, Mileena can back dash then roll if B12 is attempted.

I've been aware of this, some other characters with longer reaching D4s have this issue too, I just wanted some time to get my info straight before I brought it to attention. Hopefully it can be looked at by NRS before they call curtains on patches.

STRYKIE said:

I've been aware of this, some other characters with longer reaching D4s have this issue too, I just wanted some time to get my info straight before I brought it to attention. Hopefully it can be looked at by NRS before they call curtains on patches.

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Post what you have man, all we can do is go by past events and if that's any indication there won't be much time left. I have known this for weeks now but was determined to find some way around it, when people know this and utilise it in a match up it is a huge problem.

The only reason i hit F3 with scorpion is when i know for sure that will hit, otherwise i rather just walk on the edge of a max range D4, and play the mind game of faking a going in and then walkback out again, if they press a button, then i F3 (inferno) or F2 (Ninjutsu).

OP updated with more information, testing this took less time than I thought it would.

Eddy Wang said:

The only reason i hit F3 with scorpion is when i know for sure that will hit, otherwise i rather just walk on the edge of a max range D4, and play the mind game of faking a going in and then walkback out again, if they press a button, then i F3 (inferno) or F2 (Ninjutsu).

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F3 is hit confirmable in Hellfire though due to cancels though and the range you're talking about when not in ninjutsu is the range Scorpion struggles with the most.

All of his mids, lows and OH's have terrible range apart from F4 but you're not using that in the neutral and staying at the edge of max range of D4 is useless. When hit at max range your opponent can literally back dash every single option (besides yolo spear) that you have and armour through any attempt at offence.

I doubt too many people are aware of this but as I said in the OP once people know this it makes him struggle in the nuetral even more than he did before. F2 is not universally safe in Ninjutsu either, this is a huge problem for Scorpion.

JTB123 said:

OP updated with more information, testing this took less time than I thought it would.



F3 is hit confirmable in Hellfire though due to cancels though and the range you're talking about when not in ninjutsu is the range Scorpion struggles with the most.

All of his mids, lows and OH's have terrible range apart from F4 but you're not using that in the neutral and staying at the edge of max range of D4 is useless. When hit at max range your opponent can literally back dash every single option (besides yolo spear) that you have and armour through any attempt at offence.

I doubt too many people are aware of this but as I said in the OP once people know this it makes him struggle in the nuetral even more than he did before. F2 is not universally safe in Ninjutsu either, this is a huge problem for Scorpion.

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yeah, that is indeed true, that is why i don't do a F3 after landing a D4, i like my punishes clean, that is why i said, instead of rushing knowing my character lacks mids, up close i let them mash, armor do whatever they want thinking i'm going in.

Also a lot of people rarely use B1, its just natural that Scorpion gets low profiled all the time, i believe i said that before, he only has 1 mid starting move and lots of highs.

This wasn't much of a evidence before because vanilla Scorpion (Fatal 8) had armor on teleport without necessarily being a wakeup attack, when the day 1 patch came, he got hurt by it and a big hole was open on his defense, things that Ex teleport covered, like lack of solid mids, slow walkspeed, bad wakeup and a good range, he would literally take a risk of a blow for a ex teleport, but that was clearly way too strong on his side.

So now, Scorpion needs his normals to not suck on a long run, i suggested before that standing 1 hitting mid would solve a lot of his footsies problems, but that ain't happening either.
If he could have a better walkspeed forward and backwards, playing his neutral would be a little bit more manageable.

Does he really need to jail into anything off of d4? Can't armor just be baited? Also I don't think it's a good idea to armor after d4 vs ninjitsu.

Is this really an issue and something that wasn't known? The fact that a player has options after getting hit with a d4 doesn't mean it's a problem.

JTB123 said:

OP updated with more information, testing this took less time than I thought it would.



F3 is hit confirmable in Hellfire though due to cancels though and the range you're talking about when not in ninjutsu is the range Scorpion struggles with the most.

All of his mids, lows and OH's have terrible range apart from F4 but you're not using that in the neutral and staying at the edge of max range of D4 is useless. When hit at max range your opponent can literally back dash every single option (besides yolo spear) that you have and armour through any attempt at offence.

I doubt too many people are aware of this but as I said in the OP once people know this it makes him struggle in the nuetral even more than he did before. F2 is not universally safe in Ninjutsu either, this is a huge problem for Scorpion.

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B2 or run can counter back dashing pretty well. Also backdashing is moving the other player closer to the corner which is good for spacing. I don't think this is really an issue considering how much range d4 has. There's so many different things that can be done after a d4 with conditioning and etc.

Scoot Magee said:

Does he really need to jail into anything off of d4? Can't armor just be baited? Also I don't think it's a good idea to armor after d4 vs ninjitsu.

Is this really an issue and something that wasn't known? The fact that a player has options after getting hit with a d4 doesn't mean it's a problem.

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I was just about to post almost the same thing. Plus scorp is not the only character who can get armored when going for pressure off of a long range hit d4. It just adds another level of mindgames to a matchup. If you hit a max range d4 and read they will spend a bar on armor just either block and blow it up or if they have a safe armor move that you can stuff with f2 (ninjitsu) you can really blow it up. And they just spent a bar to be blown up by a full combo. Sure if they read right that you are going to throw another normal after the d4 you get knocked down or combo'd depending on their armor move but that is what fighting games are all about. Conditioning and reading your opponents. Plus they are spending a bar for a chance to blow you up which means if they are wrong most likely they won't have a breaker

Scoot Magee said:

B2 or run can counter back dashing pretty well. Also backdashing is moving the other player closer to the corner which is good for spacing. I don't think this is really an issue considering how much range d4 has. There's so many different things that can be done after a d4 with conditioning and etc.

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Matix218 said:

I was just about to post almost the same thing. Plus scorp is not the only character who can get armored when going for pressure off of a long range hit d4. It just adds another level of mindgames to a matchup. If you hit a max range d4 and read they will spend a bar on armor just either block and blow it up or if they have a safe armor move that you can stuff with f2 (ninjitsu) you can really blow it up. And they just spent a bar to be blown up by a full combo. Sure if they read right that you are going to throw another normal after the d4 you get knocked down or combo'd depending on their armor move but that is what fighting games are all about. Conditioning and reading your opponents. Plus they are spending a bar for a chance to blow you up which means if they are wrong most likely they won't have a breaker

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That's part of the problem. At the ranges you would realistically use D4 over D1 or D3, that's where you don't get anything. Even in Ninjutsu the only thing that 100% keeps them in check is B2, which could be punished heavily if scouted.

As it stands, with the exception of Scorpion, Kotal Kahn, Kitana and Sub-Zero (maybe there's others, if there are I also encourage them to be concerned about this), everyone, variation wide, gets at least 1 safe guaranteed option from any range of their D4 on hit into a run. I think it's safe to assume this is supposed to be a universal mechanic, and could end up as catastrophic as MK9 Scorp's D4 not granting advantage.

I'm okay with Scorpion categorically falling short in some areas, but IMO being stripped of a universal part of the neutral with no apparent compensation is not something we can afford to wait and see how it plays out, or to have NRS tell us "we'll make sure it won't happen in the next game" when WB forces them to pull the plug on patch support.

I'll say this though, JTB is milking it a little bit in the OP, from a point blank D4 you can check with F3, B3, standing 1 etc. But you shouldn't have to be point blank for that.

The fact that after a d4 on hit we have to make a read on what the opponent is going to do is ridiculous, hitting a low poke should get you something, it shouldn't put you in a guessing game with regards to a follow up where you can be full combod for it. I'm not saying we should have a boat load of options afterwards but I don't think being able to check with a B1 is out of the question.

Scorpion already lacks range outside of D4 so the one tool we do have actually being kind of terrible is a big deal.

I already mentioned in the OP about point blank D4s strykie but that's irrelevant because at point blank you should be using D1 not D4 as it's faster and at that range they do have to respect your options.

Of course this sucks for the character. Stop pretending that it doesn't. This characters footsies ability outside of ninjitsu seemingly get worse every day. This is almost like MK9, where his pokes just didn't work properly like everybody else's.

Even d1 and d3 on hit have issues.

I just don't think D4 has to lead to guaranteed pressure. Scorpions d4 is fast and grants enough advantage go move in slightly and try to bait whiffs with ninjitsu. Rc B32f2 besides at maximum range hits out of back dash with the 2nd hit due to how far it chases. Rc into a string is very useful after d4 imo as well as just inching forward after it hits.

D4 does not have to be used as a guaranteed pressure tool. It's used to set up an advantageous situation where you can improve your position on the screen and condition the other player. It's not like they can just back dash and armor for free after every d4. Having the option to armor or backdash after being hit by a d4 is not that crazy imo. They're both a risk and cost meter and stamina. Backdash also moves to the corner where d4 leads to more options and plenty of armor is punished on block.

What are the issues with d1 and d3 on hit?

STRYKIE said:

That's part of the problem. At the ranges you would realistically use D4 over D1 or D3, that's where you don't get anything. Even in Ninjutsu the only thing that 100% keeps them in check is B2, which could be punished heavily if scouted.

As it stands, with the exception of Scorpion, Kotal Kahn, Kitana and Sub-Zero (maybe there's others, if there are I also encourage them to be concerned about this), everyone, variation wide, gets at least 1 safe guaranteed option from any range of their D4 on hit into a run. I think it's safe to assume this is supposed to be a universal mechanic, and could end up as catastrophic as MK9 Scorp's D4 not granting advantage.

I'm okay with Scorpion categorically falling short in some areas, but IMO being stripped of a universal part of the neutral with no apparent compensation is not something we can afford to wait and see how it plays out, or to have NRS tell us "we'll make sure it won't happen in the next game" when WB forces them to pull the plug on patch support.

I'll say this though, JTB is milking it a little bit in the OP, from a point blank D4 you can check with F3, B3, standing 1 etc. But you shouldn't have to be point blank for that.

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I agree with most of this post but the thing is to get out of a d4 follow up they can't just throw out a normal and beat your follow up. They have to spend meter on armor and most armored specials can be blown up if scouted. I agree I would rather get a guaranteed follow-up and not worry about their armor at all but like I said before, if you scout they will try to armor after your hit d4 from range just block or armor break (depending on the character) and blow them up for it. They are taking a risk too and theirs costs them a bar of meter.

Scoot Magee said:

I just don't think D4 has to lead to guaranteed pressure. Scorpions d4 is fast and grants enough advantage go move in slightly and try to bait whiffs with ninjitsu. Rc B32f2 besides at maximum range hits out of back dash with the 2nd hit due to how far it chases. Rc into a string is very useful after d4 imo as well as just inching forward after it hits.

D4 does not have to be used as a guaranteed pressure tool. It's used to set up an advantageous situation where you can improve your position on the screen and condition the other player. It's not like they can just back dash and armor for free after every d4. Having the option to armor or backdash after being hit by a d4 is not that crazy imo. They're both a risk and cost meter and stamina. Backdash also moves to the corner where d4 leads to more options and plenty of armor is punished on block.

What are the issues with d1 and d3 on hit?

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The issues with D1 and D3 are that due to the breathing hit boxes you can also back dash these on hit as well at max range, D1 doesn't have to be absolute max range though. This is much less of a problem though as it's very inconsistent so if an opponent did this it's one hell of a risk. It's just one of those things that seems to happen in moments where it's the only thing that could go wrong in a close situation.

I don't disagree with your points but wanting Scorpions only mids to follow up after a D4 on hit as opposed to having to read what your opponent is going to do is not that big of a deal. It's also not as if his mid follow ups lead to much anyway.

RC's into anything other than mids can be armoured though and highs can be low profiled after a D4 hit on max range. At close range this does work but at that range you don't need to use D4.

I just did some testing with max range d4 vs reversal back dash. I only tested against the top half of the character select screen from jason to tanya.

After d4 on hit I would forward dash b32f2, forward dash f2 (ninjitsu) and forward dash f2(normal) vs a reversal back dash. These options beat a majority of reversal back dashes that I tested. Here is a list of characters who's back dash could evade.

Kung Lao - B32f2
Kenshi - B32f2
Sub Zero - All 3
Jacqui - B32f2 and normal f2
Kung Jin - Normal f2

These only evade off a max range d4, if closer they lose. This just shows that players can not just back dash for free vs Scorpions d4. This means they actually do have to respect Scorpions options after a d4, even at max range.

There's moves like hellfire that universally work on all back dashes after a hit d4.

As for armor you just have to condition and bait. Also ninjitsu is great for blowing up armor.

I too was testing Ninjutsu with this as it has the best armour breaking properties and it does work very well. Some characters get a lot more out of this than others, Kung Lao for example can take 40% from you.

Also I was testing Jax earlier as well and depending on the range you do F2 in Ninjustu he can backdash it. The timing is extremely tough but it's possible. If you're using the training mode backdash keep in mind that will back dash as soon as possible out of hit or block stun, you can delay it if you do it manually and back dash things that the a.i. cannot by doing this.

Do you mean regular foward dash or RC to follow up? Regular forward dashes aren't quick enough to guarantee F2 in Ninjutsu.

Hellfire after a D4 on hit is a massive risk though for only 6% damage but granted it is an option I suppose.

JTB123 said:

I too was testing Ninjutsu with this as it has the best armour breaking properties and it does work very well. Some characters get a lot more out of this than others, Kung Lao for example can take 40% from you.

Also I was testing Jax earlier as well and depending on the range you do F2 in Ninjustu he can backdash it. The timing is extremely tough but it's possible. If you're using the training mode backdash keep in mind that will back dash as soon as possible out of hit or block stun, you can delay it if you do it manually and back dash things that the a.i. cannot by doing this.

Do you mean regular foward dash or RC to follow up? Regular forward dashes aren't quick enough to guarantee F2 in Ninjutsu.

Hellfire after a D4 on hit is a massive risk though for only 6% damage but granted it is an option I suppose.

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I know hellfire is pretty much always a massive risk, I was just stating it's an option.

After d4 a normal, full forward dash into f2 will beat any reversal back dash unless stated otherwise. Options don't have to be guaranteed, this is why we have other options. Sure if they delay the back dash with super tight timing they can make f2 whiff but it's crazy to think people will do that instead of blocking for the most part.

Sure forward dashing into f2 after a d4 can just be poked out of but in order for them to do that they have to not back dash and press a button which opens up other options. After hitting a d4 Scorpion is left in an advantage and the other player a disadvantage, this is a good thing.

My list was to show one set of options that need to be respected. |When those options are respected there's other options like just following up with a f2 without dashing (this is just an example, there's a lot that can be done). You said that Scorpions options after d4 on hit don't have to be respected which is not true, that's why I posted that list. He has a ton of options that need to be respected.

STRYKIE said:

That's part of the problem. At the ranges you would realistically use D4 over D1 or D3, that's where you don't get anything. Even in Ninjutsu the only thing that 100% keeps them in check is B2, which could be punished heavily if scouted.

As it stands, with the exception of Scorpion, Kotal Kahn, Kitana and Sub-Zero (maybe there's others, if there are I also encourage them to be concerned about this), everyone, variation wide, gets at least 1 safe guaranteed option from any range of their D4 on hit into a run. I think it's safe to assume this is supposed to be a universal mechanic, and could end up as catastrophic as MK9 Scorp's D4 not granting advantage.

I'm okay with Scorpion categorically falling short in some areas, but IMO being stripped of a universal part of the neutral with no apparent compensation is not something we can afford to wait and see how it plays out, or to have NRS tell us "we'll make sure it won't happen in the next game" when WB forces them to pull the plug on patch support.

I'll say this though, JTB is milking it a little bit in the OP, from a point blank D4 you can check with F3, B3, standing 1 etc. But you shouldn't have to be point blank for that.

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The thing is, in order for your followup pressure after a hit d4 to not be almost guaranteed the other player has to totally commit to back dashing or using armor which can both be beaten (pretty safely) and both require resources.

I don't really see the problem. If the opponent would rather armour and risk getting punished with the likely possibility of Throw + EX Hellfire for 50% instead of holding a B12 or a Throw or whatever, that's great for us. Plus frames are plus frames. An option doesn't have to be guaranteed for the plus frames to be good.

Scoot Magee said:

I just did some testing with max range d4 vs reversal back dash. I only tested against the top half of the character select screen from jason to tanya.

After d4 on hit I would forward dash b32f2, forward dash f2 (ninjitsu) and forward dash f2(normal) vs a reversal back dash. These options beat a majority of reversal back dashes that I tested. Here is a list of characters who's back dash could evade.

Kung Lao - B32f2
Kenshi - B32f2
Sub Zero - All 3
Jacqui - B32f2 and normal f2
Kung Jin - Normal f2

These only evade off a max range d4, if closer they lose. This just shows that players can not just back dash for free vs Scorpions d4. This means they actually do have to respect Scorpions options after a d4, even at max range.

There's moves like hellfire that universally work on all back dashes after a hit d4.

As for armor you just have to condition and bait. Also ninjitsu is great for blowing up armor.

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Not saying this isn't great info Scoot, but the CPU will dash on the first frame available to backdash. The problem with that is most of the invincible frames are at the start of the backdash. Ultimately for the greatest results you should backdash just as the attack is about to land.

OutworldKeith said:

Not saying this isn't great info Scoot, but the CPU will dash on the first frame available to backdash. The problem with that is most of the invincible frames are at the start of the backdash. Ultimately for the greatest results you should backdash just as the attack is about to land.

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I was doing the back dashes manually because I don't know how to get the cpu to reversal back dash after being hit. Still though in order to back dash a move like f2 for example you have to guess, people aren't backdashing normals on reaction. If anyone is going to back dash out of hitstun it's most likely going to be a reversal back dash. If they delay their back dash there's a million other options that can be used. B32f2 will also beat delayed back dashes because of it's chase.

Also I specifically stated that the testing was against a reversal back dash out of hitstun meaning it was done as soon as possible. I understand that if a back dash is delayed it could cause a move to whiff but like I said that opens other options.

Scoot Magee said:

I was doing the back dashes manually because I don't know how to get the cpu to reversal back dash after being hit. Still though in order to back dash a move like f2 for example you have to guess, people aren't backdashing normals on reaction. If anyone is going to back dash out of hitstun it's most likely going to be a reversal back dash. If they delay their back dash there's a million other options that can be used. B32f2 will also beat delayed back dashes because of it's chase.

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I see, good stuff regardless.

I don't really see the big deal.

OutworldKeith said:

I see, good stuff regardless.

I don't really see the big deal.

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It's not a big deal. This has been pretty common for me to deal with for quite some time now. I never thought of being at advantage on hit as a situation where my options aren't respected. Basically it's being stated that d4 isn't good because you can't get guaranteed block pressure off it on hit.

Scoot Magee said:

It's not a big deal. This has been pretty common for me to deal with for quite some time now. I never thought of being at advantage on hit as a situation where my options aren't respected. Basically it's being stated that d4 isn't good because you can't get guaranteed block pressure off it on hit.

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Yeah exactly.

After dealing with scorpions pokes in mk9 this is like a vacation lol