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General/Other - Kano KANO IS LIKE, BOTTOM ZERO GUYS

VoyagersRevenge

VoyagersRevenge

AUGMENTED
DougDFC said:
I wouldnt list EX up ball as a cybernetic thing. It's clearly flawed, and needs fixing anyway. I think people should really separate buffs from fixes. People think "Kano needs a little help and love" is "MAKE KANO HAVE 40% METERELESS 50/50 WITH AIR PROJECTILES"
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Yeah, I am praying that Kano in general receives that Ex Up Ball fix. A little help indeed is deserved, I haven't dropped the character since day one.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
ando1184 said:
No it's not, I also stated that kanos tools that "are similar" don't work as well or as intended. I'm not downplaying, I'm simply pointing out unbalanced comparison. Since kitana received the buffs she did, she has a more solid foundation and comparing it to a character that still needs some maintenance is wrong. I'm not saying he needs over the top buffs or anything but he does need more help and attention. I do firmly believe kitana is a better character than Kano and I've believed that since the game was released because she hit hard and had unbreakable damage. That's incredibly strong in a game that uses so many resourses for breaker, on top of that Kano doesn't have unbreakable damage, 1 bar 40% midscreen combos, or aerial zoning. So yeh, unfair comparison. Kano has great zoning, yeh, thank you captain obvious, but that's it in the similarities department.
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But he's not a character that "still needs some maintenance" if by maintenance you're implying that he needs buffs. Kitana got buffs because she was one of the worst characters in the game, like Kenshi and Shinnok did too. Kano is not that bad therefore buffing him is not a necessity. Cybernetic does have unbreakable damage, even if it is as small as EX Knives, EX Knives, EX Knives, Knife. Even then that's more than a lot of characters get actually. Oh how bad it is he gets 36% when she gets 40%, that's a 4% difference and hardly worth complaining about. But in saying that I do think he needs a slight damage buff to compete better with other characters/variations because it's the only reason he loses to some of them. Kano has zoning that makes the opponent jump, Kitana doesn't (or at least shouldn't if you know the matchup). If you jump on Kitana that's your choice but you're going to eat a lot of damage for it. As I said you can downplay all you want but if he was as bad or unviable as you make him out to be he wouldn't even have made it out of pools. Infact you probably saw on stream that Coach Steve beat a Kitana with Cybernetic!
VoyagersRevenge said:
For Cybernetic variation. Up laser needs to be tweaked or removed, and either give him more plus on ex knives or make the ex up ball safe and NO WHIFFING! No crying here, just sharing some viable ideas that have been listed around before. Kano is top 10 no doubt.
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Woah there soldier, I'm all for reaffirming Kanos viability and all but top 10 is a stretch.
 
DFC

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
36% is a stretch, as he gets 37% as most optomized damage off his 112 string(which is again, a very unsafe string to be throwing out at these points unless you can guarantee it'll hit). My beef with the laser scaling is in the corner. 112 xx DB1 B312 into anything ends up being ~1% greater damage.

EDIT: It's B31 xx DB1 that is 1% more. 112 xx DB1 adds 4%
 
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SaltShaker

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
General M2Dave said:
I agree with this assessment.

An interesting but highly unlikely Cybernetic buff would be to make the regular horizontal ball cancelable with d,d to gain minor block advantage after certain strings. The cancels would cost stamina so Cybernetic Kano would be able to create some offense similarly to Predator's Plasma Caster cancels. And if you improved the up laser, this variation would definitely become viable.
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This, this here, would actually be an amazing idea.
 
SaltShaker

SaltShaker

In Zoning We Trust
Youphemism said:
I was going to write out a whole big post about my disgust at some of the shit arguments and insane downplaying coming from this forum but I think I'll just let this sentence make my opinion clear instead.

PS. Why are you even still coming in here downplaying when most of you have switched to another character anyway? We're trying to NOT be the Kitana community, remember?
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Answer: Because Kitana now wins EVO's. :DOGE
 
O

Oh My Zod

Noob
Youphemism said:
The truth is if Kano was as bad as the rest of the community made him out to be he'd never have made it out of pools. The truth is all the Commandos didn't bother with tick throws and parries, as in WHAT MAKES THE VARIATION A VARIATION ON KANO'S MOVESET, and the Cybernetics were playing sloppy. The fact that there are people willing to play Cybernetic and Commando over Cutthroat must show something about how decent the character is. If they needed help to compete they wouldn't make it out of pools yet the majority did. Patches should apply to fixes most importantly but for some reason the rest of them have decided that patches are for them to request buffs and insinuate Kano is unviable.


And the fact you still ignore that throws are part of mixups tells me you're nothing but an ignorant ass that knows nothing about playing the character and you need to go back to the lab before coming in this thread and telling the actual Kano mains what's up. The community is downplaying, simple.

And SUPER LOL at the idea that the factions should represent how good a character is hahahahahahaha. Get the fuck out of here with that stupid shit.

Yeah Sonic did win ESL with Kitana, which proves that characters without overheads and zoners can clearly compete, which makes your incessant bitching for one void.

There have been some before, there may be more to come if I'm disgusted enough that it begins to affect the rest of the community.
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Clearly Kitana and Kano are absolutely identical in gameplay in every way shape and form ....... lol. I really never have come after someone personally in a post, but Youphemism is a total fucking clown at this point. Yah Kitana's fricking X-Ray that the guy landed seemingly at will is an OverHead. Kitana was in crazy worse shape than Kano ever was at launch of the game, they got their buffs and the character is represented by the number one player in the world in EVO top 8. I mean this idiot comes in this thread arguing that a mixup is laying in a throw here and there? I would love for some internet troll to call me ignorant 2 feet away from me in the same room. Your mixups and throws wouldnt help you there son. So sick of this clown non stop arguing that this character is ok. The best thing is, he has a picture of Mileena as his avatar with a cybernetic flag lol. I cant wait for this clown to show us how he went undefeated through ANY tournament, (online or offline), with any Kano variation since the character is top 5 in his ONLY opinion.
 
KingHippo

KingHippo

Alternative-Fact Checker
EX Upball whiffing actually seems like quite a boon on wakeup for Commando, as his buffs in general did. I actually believe Commando to be a lot better than the bills being sold.

Think about it this way; you now have a safe wakeup that the ONLY way to really avoid is to crouch at a certain distance. Now that's dandy against the other two variations, but Commando's grabs do a great job of regulating that space to where if you just wait and crouch for it, you will likely get grabbed. I don't doubt there's a certain amount of low profile things that may beat both, but that's life.

Either way, this makes Kano's far trickier to pressure, since most armor beating moves aren't fast enough to beat Upball since it's so fast, and I'll bet most can't actually do like a d4 and beat both options, and command grab leads to a pretty effective okizume (TM) game for him.

Also, the choke. By far the biggest change for Commando and what now ties it together (Which it didn't before; without it, Commando made very little sense). NOW he has something that can make his strings and f4 safe as well as build meter AND set up a guessing game on block. -4 is almost perfect, since his parrys are either 4 or 2 frames, which would mean a character's reversal would likely be a 6-8 range startup or more. Add in EN command grab basically beating most everything but a jump or possibly a really low profile move, PLUS he has his own really fast two hitting EN move that is also safe (and no doubt would hit twice at that range), and Kano can actually make the opponent do SOMETHING after choke is blocked. This also means d3 xx choke and d3 xx command grab become different options because most will get out of ticks by jumping or going for an airborne move, which the choke will beat and now it can be safe for the effort (Armor still beats both, but when in Rome).

None of this probably adds up to super top, or even high mid, mind you, and it could probably use a little more tweaking here and there to be like super top, but it's a pretty decent variation now I think, and a dedicated specialist could probably do just fine with it. A lot of it is guesswork, and the damage isn't completely scary, but it's a variation that now makes sense. Those two buffs, small as they were, were probably more effective than you think, although getting the community to collectively get off its ass and stop feeling sorry for themselves is most certainly out of the question. And yes, I did move away from Kano to play Liu Kang, but I think I can spot a couple of good tools when I see them.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
Oh My Zod said:
Clearly Kitana and Kano are absolutely identical in gameplay in every way shape and form ....... lol. I really never have come after someone personally in a post, but Youphemism is a total fucking clown at this point. Yah Kitana's fricking X-Ray that the guy landed seemingly at will is an OverHead. Kitana was in crazy worse shape than Kano ever was at launch of the game, they got their buffs and the character is represented by the number one player in the world in EVO top 8. I mean this idiot comes in this thread arguing that a mixup is laying in a throw here and there? I would love for some internet troll to call me ignorant 2 feet away from me in the same room. Your mixups and throws wouldnt help you there son. So sick of this clown non stop arguing that this character is ok. The best thing is, he has a picture of Mileena as his avatar with a cybernetic flag lol. I cant wait for this clown to show us how he went undefeated through ANY tournament, (online or offline), with any Kano variation since the character is top 5 in his ONLY opinion.
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Yes because low or throw isn't a mixup, not like Sonic was doing that a ton at ESL with Kitana or anything, great logic. You must win all sorts of shit with your new meta tactics of not knowing how to play the character.

You're the one coming in here with arguments like suggesting FACTIONS should have an effect on the tier list and that my PROFILE PICTURE ON A FORUM (which I haven't changed since I signed up the site) is any sort of evidence of who I play. I don't even play Mileena in this game, nor Sub Zero. Maybe if you didn't have such shitty arguments and logic then people would listen to you. The only Kano actually out there competing offline that posts on these forums also thinks Kano is fine, so between him and you I think his word is probably worth listening to. Nice overexaggeration by the way with the whole "undefeated" shit and insinuating I think he's top 5 when you haven't got any evidence to back it up. Typical TYM...

Get back to me once you go to an offline competition :)
KingHippo said:
EX Upball whiffing actually seems like quite a boon on wakeup for Commando, as his buffs in general did. I actually believe Commando to be a lot better than the bills being sold.

Think about it this way; you now have a safe wakeup that the ONLY way to really avoid is to crouch at a certain distance. Now that's dandy against the other two variations, but Commando's grabs do a great job of regulating that space to where if you just wait and crouch for it, you will likely get grabbed. I don't doubt there's a certain amount of low profile things that may beat both, but that's life.

Either way, this makes Kano's far trickier to pressure, since most armor beating moves aren't fast enough to beat Upball since it's so fast, and I'll bet most can't actually do like a d4 and beat both options, and command grab leads to a pretty effective okizume (TM) game for him.

Also, the choke. By far the biggest change for Commando and what now ties it together (Which it didn't before; without it, Commando made very little sense). NOW he has something that can make his strings and f4 safe as well as build meter AND set up a guessing game on block. -4 is almost perfect, since his parrys are either 4 or 2 frames, which would mean a character's reversal would likely be a 6-8 range startup or more. Add in EN command grab basically beating most everything but a jump or possibly a really low profile move, PLUS he has his own really fast two hitting EN move that is also safe (and no doubt would hit twice at that range), and Kano can actually make the opponent do SOMETHING after choke is blocked. This also means d3 xx choke and d3 xx command grab become different options because most will get out of ticks by jumping or going for an airborne move, which the choke will beat and now it can be safe for the effort (Armor still beats both, but when in Rome).

None of this probably adds up to super top, or even high mid, mind you, and it could probably use a little more tweaking here and there to be like super top, but it's a pretty decent variation now I think, and a dedicated specialist could probably do just fine with it. A lot of it is guesswork, and the damage isn't completely scary, but it's a variation that now makes sense. Those two buffs, small as they were, were probably more effective than you think, although getting the community to collectively get off its ass and stop feeling sorry for themselves is most certainly out of the question. And yes, I did move away from Kano to play Liu Kang, but I think I can spot a couple of good tools when I see them.
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F4 is safe though, it's -5.
 
FlappyDaniel

FlappyDaniel

Snappin' spines all day e'ry day.
Nobody says kano is top 5, he's pretty much agreed to be mid tier. The thing is Mid tiers can compete in this game if the player is using them to their full potential. We have a 1 Frame armor move that we can cancel to interrupt any gap, go back and watch the matches and tell me how many times Kanos used this OR our 2/4 frame parries that can be used in a similar way, the same with the tick throws Youphemism pointed out. It's possible that many characters are not being used to their absolute full potential still right? and that is what is happening here and with other characters who were not as prominent in the top 64 that is pointed out. It does not mean they are bad. People put so much stock in the character over the player. Obviously there are objective arguments based on characters' tool sets that can be made, but even they are hypothetical when you add in the element of human reaction and execution. Nobody is executing absolutely perfectly all the time yet, so I don't think we can really judge JUST the character so blankly until the Gap between what they theoretically can do and what is actually executed lessens. Kanos will figure it out in time with or without changes, just gotta keep playing.
 
Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
FlappyDaniel said:
Nobody says kano is top 5, he's pretty much agreed to be mid tier. The thing is Mid tiers can compete in this game if the player is using them to their full potential. We have a 1 Frame armor move that we can cancel to interrupt any gap, go back and watch the matches and tell me how many times Kanos used this OR our 2/4 frame parries that can be used in a similar way, the same with the tick throws Youphemism pointed out. It's possible that many characters are not being used to their absolute full potential still right? and that is what is happening here and with other characters who were not as prominent in the top 64 that is pointed out. It does not mean they are bad. People put so much stock in the character over the player. Obviously there are objective arguments based on characters' tool sets that can be made, but even they are hypothetical when you add in the element of human reaction and execution. Nobody is executing absolutely perfectly all the time yet, so I don't think we can really judge JUST the character so blankly until the Gap between what they theoretically can do and what is actually executed lessens. Kanos will figure it out in time with or without changes, just gotta keep playing.
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THANK

GOD

there is another optimist in here. You're the most sensible Commando I've seen (although the majority of Commandos seem to be cool too).
 
DFC

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
It's one of those things where I don't feel Kano is terrible. I think that 95% of the cast is viable at any level, But he is due for all the fixes that we constantly talk about, and could use a little love in places. I don't think anybody is asking for a King's Ransom here when it comes to Kano patch notes. Nobody suggest Kanos' OH B1 have the range that Quan Chi's OH has, just like nobody is asking for Commando to have every string tick into grab(My only issue is that F33 is an entirely terrible string, and a tick setup that whiffs almost every time doesn't make it worthwhile, at least to me). If Kano ended up getting all these things that pushed him to the top, I'd be overjoyed at the fact that Kano is Elder God tier, but I wouldn't agree with NRS's doing of it.

Yes I have to post this every time. It validates my posts on a fighting game messageboard and makes me look cool to fellow Kano players.
 
D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
Right, and neither was Goro. Kano is mid to top tier compared to him. But knowing how your community whines louder, Kano will get buffs goro won't. He probably won't get as many as the Kitana, Reptile and Kenshi crowd since they whined loudest
 
DFC

DFC

Cutthroat Truther
D_Matt_Ma said:
Right, and neither was Goro. Kano is mid to top tier compared to him. But knowing how your community whines louder, Kano will get buffs goro won't. He probably won't get as many as the Kitana, Reptile and Kenshi crowd since they whined loudest
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This is not the fault of the Kano community though. It's on NRS to see what needs changing and what doesn't.
 
D_Matt_Ma

D_Matt_Ma

Sheeva isn't Goro's wife. Goro is her husband.
DougDFC said:
This is not the fault of the Kano community though. It's on NRS to see what needs changing and what doesn't.
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Like I now always say, FUCK NRS. They don't care about balance. They only buff based on people they want to win. Since there are so many Kitana Reptile Lao Kenshi fan boys, they will listen to them.
 
O

Oh My Zod

Noob
Youphemism said:
Yes because low or throw isn't a mixup, not like Sonic was doing that a ton at ESL with Kitana or anything, great logic. You must win all sorts of shit with your new meta tactics of not knowing how to play the character.

You're the one coming in here with arguments like suggesting FACTIONS should have an effect on the tier list and that my PROFILE PICTURE ON A FORUM (which I haven't changed since I signed up the site) is any sort of evidence of who I play. I don't even play Mileena in this game, nor Sub Zero. Maybe if you didn't have such shitty arguments and logic then people would listen to you. The only Kano actually out there competing offline that posts on these forums also thinks Kano is fine, so between him and you I think his word is probably worth listening to. Nice overexaggeration by the way with the whole "undefeated" shit and insinuating I think he's top 5 when you haven't got any evidence to back it up. Typical TYM...

Get back to me once you go to an offline competition :)

F4 is safe though, it's -5.
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Obviously the Kano competing in offline tourneys must be content with mediocrity. When you take Kano into a top 10 matchup there isnt much you can do when his tools get outclassed. You see the point was , there is no area in which Kano is a viable threat. Mixups..... there is no such thing if the opponent doesnt have to alter his blocking stance, and slapping a throw out there once in a while isnt a mixup. Nice PeeWee Herman "I know you are but what am I" response in regards to offline tourneys. I'm sure your resume with triple digit championships rivals Perfect Legend. Because the whole point here is not about fixing Kano, its all about whether or not people who disagree with your clown like mentality are worthy enough to play Mortal Kombat. I mean god forbid someone offer ideas to get the character improved. Bottom Line, QUESTION.... If Kano was buffed or fixed in any way in a future patch, Would YOU stop playing him? This is a yes or no answer. Because honestly, if he doesnt get ANY fixes at all, there arent a lot of people that will keep playing him if they play with any goal of winning in mind. Key word by the way was FIXES, buffs would be nice.
 
I GOT HANDS

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
GAV said:
I give Ketchup props for sticking with Quan Chi and reaching the absolute ceiling with him, but Quan is so limited in the corner.
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Ketchup is great but nowhere near the absolute ceiling, or even close to approaching any ceiling at all. No-one is. SonicFox for example is very beatable, he's not at the ceiling yet. Unless Ketchup is beating him consistently his Quan chi still has miles and miles to improve
 
ando1184

ando1184

Noob
Youphemism said:
But he's not a character that "still needs some maintenance" if by maintenance you're implying that he needs buffs. Kitana got buffs because she was one of the worst characters in the game, like Kenshi and Shinnok did too. Kano is not that bad therefore buffing him is not a necessity. Cybernetic does have unbreakable damage, even if it is as small as EX Knives, EX Knives, EX Knives, Knife. Even then that's more than a lot of characters get actually. Oh how bad it is he gets 36% when she gets 40%, that's a 4% difference and hardly worth complaining about. But in saying that I do think he needs a slight damage buff to compete better with other characters/variations because it's the only reason he loses to some of them. Kano has zoning that makes the opponent jump, Kitana doesn't (or at least shouldn't if you know the matchup). If you jump on Kitana that's your choice but you're going to eat a lot of damage for it. As I said you can downplay all you want but if he was as bad or unviable as you make him out to be he wouldn't even have made it out of pools. Infact you probably saw on stream that Coach Steve beat a Kitana with Cybernetic!

Woah there soldier, I'm all for reaffirming Kanos viability and all but top 10 is a stretch.
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Dude stop calling me a downplayer, for one I never said he needs any top tier-like buffs or anything. My only argument with you is that he shouldn't be compared to kitana because at this point, she has become a jack of all trades and a better character than Kano based on design.

By maintenance I mainly was referring to fixes because he's still buggy to all hell. Ex Upball still whiffs at times and doesn't AA half the time, commando ex command throws still whiff vs characters doing strings, 112 still whiffs vs crouch blocking opponents, etc.... Also about the damage, when in a matchup and you dish out 36% off of a read and punish but your opponent nets around 40 or more then yeh it's actually a big difference in competitive play. It's a psychological mind fuck that we are accustomed to. Why do you think things we buy are always presented at 19.99 and whatnot instead of the big 20? It's because it messes with us psychologically, and in competitive play every % matters.
 
Error

Error

DF2+R2
I know we like to argue just to argue, but I thought the community for the most part had agreed that Commando just needed the hitbox fixes, the safe choke, which he got, and more tick options to make up for Erron Black existing, nothing extreme.

This game has way too many characters and MUs for me to actually care about tier positions so early in the game's life, so I'm probably never serious when I say Kano is bottom 5.
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
I GOT HANDS said:
Ketchup is great but nowhere near the absolute ceiling, or even close to approaching any ceiling at all. No-one is. SonicFox for example is very beatable, he's not at the ceiling yet. Unless Ketchup is beating him consistently his Quan chi still has miles and miles to improve
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Did you see what Ketchup was pulling off consistently? When he wasn't in the corner, he was just doin' work. He would land a hit and it would be over just like that.

Once Quan is in the corner, he doesn't have anything to mix his opponent up with to get out.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
Kano has all the tools in a game that easily shits on them with the run button. He has everything he DIDN'T have in MK9, yet they found a way to still handicap him. Really a bad mechanic in regards to the game as they gave him a GREAT moveset. I still wished they had an option of some sorts to use the traditional "block" for dash cancelling and stuff like that and to turn the meter off. Characters like Jacqui, Tanya and Reptile would easily be better as a result of their already good/great/excellent mobility.
 
Skylight1

Skylight1

Noob
Youphemism said:
I was going to write out a whole big post about my disgust at some of the shit arguments and insane downplaying coming from this forum but I think I'll just let this sentence make my opinion clear instead.

PS. Why are you even still coming in here downplaying when most of you have switched to another character anyway? We're trying to NOT be the Kitana community, remember?
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Too late for that......

:DOGE
 
GAV

GAV

Resolution through knowledge and resolve.
Skylight1 said:
Kano has all the tools in a game that easily shits on them with the run button. He has everything he DIDN'T have in MK9, yet they found a way to still handicap him. Really a bad mechanic in regards to the game as they gave him a GREAT moveset. I still wished they had an option of some sorts to use the traditional "block" for dash cancelling and stuff like that and to turn the meter off. Characters like Jacqui, Tanya and Reptile would easily be better as a result of their already good/great/excellent mobility.
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I play this guy that has a nasty Cybernetic Kano and Noxious Reptile. He hit me with a 45% combo today with Reptile. He has consistent 40%+ combos with one bar with Cybernetic Kano and he mixes up off of them. He's played both since day 1.

Unless you stick it out with a character, you're not going to know what they can really do.

That's why players who have stuck with Kano know and those that haven't don't.
 
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Youphemism

Youphemism

Gunslinger since pre patch (sh/out to The Farmer)
I'll leave it at this:

Fixes - fine, by all means request them
Buffs - unnecessary, he's not broken nor unviable and he's not shit tier. Luxury buffs are fine if they happen but the people who'd rather just work on winning and agree that the character's fine like Coach Steve and I don't find he needs them for us to win. The character has great footsie tools for one thing, abuse them. In Commando work on getting tick throw mixups going and parry what you can as much as possible so they get scared to try and hit you. (Side note: is there even a thread detailing what can be parried and with what parries? Because that's kind of really important). In Cybernetic focus on getting them to respect blockstring/throw mixups (which are mixups by the way). In Cutthroat try and get in on the opponent then chuck them into the corner where your B1 is most effective, land hard knockdowns and run in if it'll help your B1 midscreen, and go for the big boy damage.
 
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