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Question - Takeda Ronin vs Shirai Ryu. What's better OVERALL?

Variation?

  • SHIRAI RYU

    Votes: 38 66.7%
  • RONIN

    Votes: 19 33.3%

  • Total voters
    57

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
Takeda mains key in!!

What's your opinion and please back it. Seeing as I'm only interested in everyone's opinion I will also give my own. Please be aware this is my opinion and should be treated as such. This thread is not made to become argumentative and if it does, I'll request a mod to close it.

First I'll start with Pros and Cons of both variations. Keep in mind I am only talking about Takedas tools, match ups are a non-factor in this discussion.

RONIN:

-PROS-

-Gains overhead low string that works as a decent starter for ok damage. The range is alright and the string is cancelable in all 3 points.

-212 is a great string for ending combos in hard knockdown. Also has decent range.

-Both blade drop and blade summon can evoke plus frames which adds to his pressure.. Kind of. (More on this in Cons)**

-Has a fireball with great recovery and travel speed. EX fireball is extremely hard to jump over, and impossible for some characters. Also ex fireball eats projectiles. Decent start up, nothing too great.

-Gains access to armored wake up in Shiryu Ryu Kan. Better start up than all his other options.

-Blade drop is good for mindgames if used properly. Blade summon can be converted from if used as anti air.

-CONS-

-Lacks in the damage department both meterless and metered. This variations damage is average. Nothing spectacular.

-Plus frames on blade kall or drop normally aren't enough to keep a seasoned opponent respecting you. the string he gains most advantage in (33) is short ranged and u will very rarely see outside of combos.

-Easily zoned. Sure he has a fireball, and even a reflect, but against competent ACTUAL zoners, he gets bodied trying to compete with them.

-Loses kunai as space control tool.

-If you lose the blade (get hit while its out) you have to deal with your opponents pressure while trying to get the blade back safely. Which can also unknowingly lead to input errors (df1 when you thought the blade was still down, but it wasnt lol)

-Loses midscreen control tools and is forced to either play f1 2+4 game or full screen, working your way in. Not where takeda wants to be.

-one of Takedas greatest assets, the teleport, is not in this variation.


-SHIRAI RYU-

-Pros
-Gains teleport and access to kunai

-Better damage off of any given hit

-B21 is the long whip overhead, allowing for pressure from places no other character can mimic.

-Easier/More damage off of air to air conversions.

-Teleport and air teleport to close the gap.

-Retains better control in the neutral.

-Some of the highest if not the highest unbreakable damage in the game.

-Ex kunai unblockables, which exist in lasher as well, but SR gets better damage.

Cons

-Strings ending in kunai can normally be armored out of (one exception being b11 close kunai).

-No good armor attacks to deal with pressure.

-Doesn't gain much from having a cornered opponent.

-Loses overhead low string in favor of the normal b21.


-My verdict-

I choose shirai ryu because I feel this is the way NRS intended for the character to be played.

He is a high risk high reward character who excells at normal-based zoning and can control the neutral from practically anywhere on the screen.

Ronin is NOT bad whatsoever. He is a very competent character, but I feel he has two major problems. Covering distance, and moving in when full screen. Sure he has a projectile, but its not the greatest and its only use is really to put SOMETHING on screen to keep your opponent on their toes. Reflect is just that, a reflect. Hard on reaction to most projectiles at most distances, but good when u have a read.

Losing kunai is also a big factor, kunai as a ground based zoning tool works so well to cover space that a slow normally wouldn't be able to in time. Kunai is also good for baiting jumps to catch f1 2+4 anti airs.

Teleport mindgames are key to takeda. He plays most of his SR game based around this mind game.

Which brings up another point of mine, takeda is not a mix up character. He's a mind game character. He plays based on how his opponent reacts to him, and works against that with the tools he has at his disposal.

Tl;Dr

SR is best IMO although ronin is still awesome and should not be overlooked.
 

Malices' World

LOL!! @.@
I couldn't agree any more personally for me i would choose the SR reason begin like you had mentioned he is mind character with his kunai available to him that makes him all them more at times unpredictable. As for ronin the variation is a bit more difficult to use but i love the fact that for his blade drop it gives him that plus advantage to keep the pressure going a little more then you would with SR. But thats just my personal opinion :)
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
http://xboxdvr.com/gamer/Kidigital/video/4771111

with two meters he gets 44 off overhead 46 off of low and can punish sub slide for 50 percent

with one his damage is similar to SR maybe a little less. My point is he has more access to more damage
How does he have access to more damage in this variation? How are u getting this much damage without start with EX fist flurry? I understand it's a punish, but if it is a punish SR is still out damaging Ronin. 1 meter, meterless and 2 meters.

What I'm saying is, your risking using ex fist flurry as a starter. Unless your punishing. Your banking on your opponent getting hit by the mix up by canceling into ex fist flurry. Where SR doesn't have to risk much because big damage comes from ex Kunai which is safe.
 

Immortal Kombat

almost moderate success
You pretty much covered it.
I wish people would be honest with themselves and just say "I think ronin is better cause it looks cool". I don't understand the logic in willingly giving up full screen attacks for ronin. Especially when the damage you can inflict off b2,1 is so high. Ronin getting damage off a punish is cool and all but it's nothing compared to the benefits of Shira ryu.
Not to mention the op gimmicks you get for intentionally whiffing a teleport at the end of combos, or simply using it to safely get on the other side of a projectile.
Ronin is hype to see and nothing more.
Edit...
I have to disagree about Shira Ryu corner game. That's were I thrive and usually win or lose my matchups. The corner is the goal for me
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
It's 50 either way JIP or not the scaling is weird like that and I see... but how much off of low starter and overhead starter? and the 53 also 2 meter yeah?
Depends on my starter and if I want to retain safety and allow myself to continue into pressure.

Off low and overhead I'm still breaking 50 (52 and 53 respectively), but I'm risking canceling into ex fist flurry. Which, mind you is available in every variation.

Now if I cancel into ex kunai, I keep my safety and can confirm into 38% 1 meter or 47% for 2 WITHOUT the risk.
 

StealthyMuffin

Earth's Mightiest Knucklehead
They are completely different characters, so they're hard to compare. Ronin sucks at staying in his opponent's face. Shirai Ryu sucks at keeping people away from his face. A few plus frames (which are somewhat trivialized by his slow startup) are not worth giving up range, damage, mobility, TPC shenanigans, and EX Kunai. Either way, Takeda still sucks. Shirai Ryu just sucks less.

-A Takeda Downplayer
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
They are completely different characters, so they're hard to compare. Ronin sucks at staying in his opponent's face. Shirai Ryu sucks at keeping people away from his face. A few plus frames (which are somewhat trivialized by his slow startup) are not worth giving up range, damage, mobility, TPC shenanigans, and EX Kunai. Either way, Takeda still sucks. Shirai Ryu just sucks less.

-A Takeda Downplayer

Thanks for your input. Although I don't believe Takeda sucks, I just think people are playing him like he's a mix up character instead of playing solid and training their opponent.
 

Malices' World

LOL!! @.@
They are completely different characters, so they're hard to compare. Ronin sucks at staying in his opponent's face. Shirai Ryu sucks at keeping people away from his face. A few plus frames (which are somewhat trivialized by his slow startup) are not worth giving up range, damage, mobility, TPC shenanigans, and EX Kunai. Either way, Takeda still sucks. Shirai Ryu just sucks less.

-A Takeda Downplayer
Ahah I agree with you on that extent I mean trying to bring out the best of takeda while still being a poop character it's all the more difficult to make him a mid tier.
 

Kidigital

@KdashDigital/Raiko Digital
How does he have access to more damage in this variation? How are u getting this much damage without start with EX fist flurry? I understand it's a punish, but if it is a punish SR is still out damaging Ronin. 1 meter, meterless and 2 meters.

What I'm saying is, your risking using ex fist flurry as a starter. Unless your punishing. Your banking on your opponent getting hit by the mix up by canceling into ex fist flurry. Where SR doesn't have to risk much because big damage comes from ex Kunai which is safe.
I use back 2 1 into ex furry same damage even if overhead is blocked for whatever reason.

b3 into ex flurry and that is the only one that i can't do on reaction.



50% off of low and overhead or even punish in SR is really good though I just don't see that damage output regularly by any SR. Probably playing the wrong ones. If it is constant and is also two bars only thing i could really think about ronin is the meter build from pressure and the fast overhead low and with the cal sword low eating alot of armored wakeups. Thats about it. Oh, and he looks cool ;)
 

Immortal Kombat

almost moderate success
I use back 2 1 into ex furry same damage even if overhead is blocked for whatever reason.

b3 into ex flurry and that is the only one that i can't do on reaction.



50% off of low and overhead or even punish in SR is really good though I just don't see that damage output regularly by any SR. Probably playing the wrong ones. If it is constant and is also two bars only thing i could really think about ronin is the meter build from pressure and the fast overhead low and with the cal sword low eating alot of armored wakeups. Thats about it. Oh, and he looks cool ;)
Thank you lol. I really do think people are playing ronin because it's "hype" on a stream. It's like joker and lex all over again. (Lex was pretty good)
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Shirai Ryu all day. That's the only variation that feels like a complete character to me right now, with the tools necessary to stay afloat in the meta.


This isn't to say that it's impossible to win with the other variations, but if I could only have one, it'd be Shirai Ryu by a longshot.
 

CrimsonShadow

Administrator and Community Engineer
Administrator
Thanks for your input. Although I don't believe Takeda sucks, I just think people are playing him like he's a mix up character instead of playing solid and training their opponent.
Characters in this game don't play solid; they play dirty :p

But it's true that the basic (slow) 50/50 isn't really at the center of his meta.
 

Phosferrax

Original Liu Kang cop.
I think you have leaned more towards the way SR is played than how Ronin is meant to be played in your break down. Things like 'loses kunai as a space control tool' would lead me to believe that you may not be trying to play Ronin on it's own, but with influences of SR which I think is a negative way to come at this variation.

Also, f1 2+4 QK on blocks (point blank) gives more frame advantage than 33 QK.

Blade drop can be a very good way of controlling space in the same regard as kunai, as the threat of the launch is available to him, but not with normal kunai.

And I dont think that someone should just be able to constantly disrespect your pressure in Ronin. It's a nicely balanced meta that exists with his pressure, imo.
 

EMPEROR PRYCE

WAR SEASON "THE WEAK EXPOSED!"
I think you have leaned more towards the way SR is played than how Ronin is meant to be played in your break down. Things like 'loses kunai as a space control tool' would lead me to believe that you may not be trying to play Ronin on it's own, but with influences of SR which I think is a negative way to come at this variation.

Also, f1 2+4 QK on blocks (point blank) gives more frame advantage than 33 QK.

Blade drop can be a very good way of controlling space in the same regard as kunai, as the threat of the launch is available to him, but not with normal kunai.

And I dont think that someone should just be able to constantly disrespect your pressure in Ronin. It's a nicely balanced meta that exists with his pressure, imo.
Kunai and blade drop work differently. If you drop the blade full screen as their jumping to you from full screen, you are at a worse disadvantage then you were if u simply threw a kunai. Also you don't have your blade.

Anyways. As far as frame advantage on quick kall I apologize for my ignorance. I wasn't sure which one gave the most advantage. I just don't think Takedas normals compensate for the minute frame advantage given by the set strings. Your just asking to get armored or poked out of.

It's all opinions tho and there's nothing wrong w yours. Ronin is still good and I still use it from time to time. Used to main it til I came to the realization that I did.
 
Honestly Ronin would be fine if NRS made his teleport and kunai UNIVERSAL but that's about as far fetched as a top tier Unbreakable Subzero. Either way, I'm more comfortable with SR simply because of the damage and space control. I have no problem getting people out of my face with d3 d4 then gimmicking my way into a 30+% combo. You just have to make the right reads and risk wisely.

Unless you're playing your friend for fun and games, not many players are hardly going to respect your Ronin game. If you don't know what you're doing then it doesn't matter where you drop that blade on the screen, the rushdown is coming regardless.
 

ryublaze

Noob
I prefer SR and I pretty much agree with everything said in this thread. Giving up SR's damage and tools for me isn't worth it just for some plus frames and faster armor. It's not like SR doesn't have pressure, you just have to mix up stagger strings and teleport cancels. I also think EX Kunai is underrated. Ronin's still good though, I just like having more options.
 

LucaTheRipper

RULES OF NATURE!
Ronin doesn't have the same mix up and pressure potential as SR considering he don't have kunais and loses his OH-Low and a lot of things when he drops the blade but have a better projectile zoning and counter zoning, even without this SR doesn't sucks much against zoners.
 

SnowboardRX

^ You have no idea who this guy is ^
As a day 1 Ronin player who has never played and has no interest in SR at all I can't really chime in on why one is better than the other since I have no insight into SR but I can give my thoughts on Ronin.

Regarding SOME of your CON list points:

-Lacks in the damage department both meterless and metered. This variations damage is average. Nothing spectacular.
--Meh, from what I've seen from versing SR's online, if they can manage to get a good combo on me, it's really only a few % more than what I could do and this really doesn't sway me into wanting to play SR. I know a few % here and there can make all the difference in a close match but, again, it really doesn't matter to ME.

-Easily zoned. Sure he has a fireball, and even a reflect, but against competent ACTUAL zoners, he gets bodied trying to compete with them.
--I can't really agree with you on this one (unless we're talking about Kitana...i hate that b!tch! lol). I find anyone I face who is clearly an ACTUAL zoner has to adjust, every time, once they realize it isn't working on me. I've put enough time into Ronin to know how to stop their game with my spark and reflect...and also how and when to YOLO spin to get in on them if need be (Actually hit them about 90% of the time which I think is pretty good considering the move really is just meh). Zoners be warned lol.


-Loses kunai as space control tool.
--Don't need space control. I'm covering my opponent like white on rice. I'm getting in on you every chance I get and not letting you leave my side.


-If you lose the blade (get hit while its out) you have to deal with your opponents pressure while trying to get the blade back safely. Which can also unknowingly lead to input errors (df1 when you thought the blade was still down, but it wasnt lol)
--I PERSONALLY don't really seem to have this issue. A lot of time I purposely will throw the blade out to mess with their head. (Side note which really doesn't mean much but: Have you ever tried playing the computer as Ronin on the hardest level? That guy never needs his blade. The things on the ground most of the match)


-Loses midscreen control tools and is forced to either play f1 2+4 game or full screen, working your way in. Not where takeda wants to be.

--Not sure if I'm understanding this point correctly so I won't comment on it right now. (Are you saying being full screen and working your way in is not where Takeda wants to be or Working your way in and being up close is not where he wants to be?)

-one of Takedas greatest assets, the teleport, is not in this variation.
--Never had/used it so I don't know what I'm missing I guess. I'm sure it could add a great deal to this variation but I've been fine without it up until this point.


When the game first came out, Ronin had it's issues, but for the most part, they have seemed to have been resolved. Sure a couple tweaks here and there could make him better but I think I'm at a point with him that I'm fine with what I've got. b2,1 and b3 are great mix-up tools to make your opponent keep guessing and I'm all about the pressure and being in your face with him. Also, the mind games that your able to play with throwing out the blade is just unreal and really fun to do. Now am I saying that you all should choose Ronin over SR...NO. Again, I have no knowledge of SR so I can't compare, but for me, Ronin is where it's at and I'll continue to sport him as my main until the end of this game's life cycle.
 

John Grizzly

The axe that clears the forest
Anyone have any links to some good Ronin play? I've literally never once seen anyone play it. I've messed with a bit myself because it seems so fucking cool to me, but I only ever put real effort and time into Lasher and Shirai Ryu.