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General/Other - Swarm Queen Why the second D'Vorah nerf is unnecessary

Is the second nerf necessary?


  • Total voters
    149

Krayzie

Co-founder
Founder
Yeah but it's so good. In theory, if you can do it consistently and get your opponent to respect it, it's almost like this nerf never even happened since f22 will then be "safe" due to them not bothering to even try and armor since they'd get blown up if they're wrong and get hit by b1/212/112(hey, it works and no gap!).

Probably a huge exaggeration, but just..... wow lmao.
I think you must be part robot to pull that off... lol
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
I think you must be part robot to pull that off... lol
I mean, it's literally just like a 1 frame link! b1 is 11 frames, you're +12 after f112, so it's possible to get that down consistently I think. Gonna take a lot of grinding though.

I wouldn't mind being called a robot in this situation.....
 

Krayzie

Co-founder
Founder
I mean, it's literally just like a 1 frame link! b1 is 11 frames, you're +12 after f112, so it's possible to get that down consistently I think. Gonna take a lot of grinding though.

I wouldn't mind being called a robot in this situation.....
I've been going hard at getting it down so much, that the initial cancels are now easy... lol
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
I've been going hard at getting it down so much, that the initial cancels are now easy... lol
It's always fun when you look back and remember how hard some things were, but currently you can do them while sleeping. Such a good feeling. But it eventually turns into a self destructive addiction, that has you constantly looking for more difficult things where eventually none will exist, causing you to always be hungry and never satisfied.
 

Krayzie

Co-founder
Founder
It's always fun when you look back and remember how hard some things were, but currently you can do them while sleeping. Such a good feeling. But it eventually turns into a self destructive addiction, that has you constantly looking for more difficult things where eventually none will exist.
My only gripe is that I have to adjust before Evo, with the haunting feeling over me that another patch will change her timing again.

Otherwise. Lets hit the lab and get our stuff down. :)
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
My only gripe is that I have to adjust before Evo, with the haunting feeling over me that another patch will change her timing again.

Otherwise. Lets hit the lab and get our stuff down. :)
Yeah that's the frustrating part about all of this. Now that we know b1 is still guaranteed on block after f112 they will also (hopefully)know, so maybe they'll eventually give us the old WCs back or lower the holding time by 1 or 2 and just smack f112s cancel advantage in the mouth.

That would even serve as a dual nerf since it would make her random conversations much less damaging, and even straight up remove some options which might end up satisfying them as far as balance goes.
 

shaowebb

Get your guns on. Sheriff is back.
In general, since I played a lot of Spencer in Marvel vs Capcom 3 Vanilla, I am not really a fan of folks having to use 1 frame links. Whether its justified or not I can't say since I don't feel the character was maximized yet out there by players. I just don't like single frame links because it typically results in folks having different online and offline preferences.
 

omooba

fear the moobs
D'Vorah got the following two nerfs in today's unexpected patch:

  • D'Vorah - reduced the cancel advantage after Pterothorax combo (Towards + FP, FP, BP) by 2
  • D’Vorah (Swarm Queen) - must be in the Bug Bomb (Wasp Grenade) held loop for 3 frames before you can dash cancel out of it
While I can understand the first nerf, I can not fathom why NRS chose to implement to second nerf. The first nerf toned down her main pressure string which previously enabled her to have a 50/50 after the opponent blocked the move. The opponent's best option was to take the last hit and get out of the pressure at a cost of ~4% damage. She no longer has the option to 50/50 the opponent because she was previously +16, giving her a 1 frame window to use her F2 (15 frame overhead) without a gap, but she is now +11.

The second nerf causes all of her bug cancel combos on hit to be much harder to execute. Her overhead starter previously had a 6 frame window and it now has a 3 frame window to combo into 212. Her low starter and her 112 starter (which is her best punishing move) previously had 4 frame windows which have now changed to 1 frame windows to combo into 212.

I think the second nerf has no real purpose besides forcing tighter execution on an already execution heavy character. I've gone into training mode for countless hours perfecting her cancels and now I'm forced to do it all over again. Her damage output is in line with the rest of the cast so I don't see why it's necessary for her execution to be exponentially harder.

While it is certainly possible to perform the 1 frame combos, the execution barrier to play D'Vorah has increased drastically and is certainly off putting for both D'Vorah mains and prospective D'Vorah players.

D'Vorah previously got a damage reduction nerf in the "Kenshi patch" which was understandable and acceptable because it didn't affect her core gameplay. I just think NRS went a bit too far with this patch.

@colt

EDIT: Adding this post to the OP because I don't think many of you understand what my issue is here.

For those saying that the second nerf is justified because D'Vorah is "too good" and therefore, let's make her bnbs significantly harder to do, it doesn't answer the question. The top D'Vorah players will still go into the lab and force themselves to adjust to a 1 frame link but my question is WHY? What does it accomplish? She still has the same tools and once the players put another 24+ hours of labbing to learn the execution, will NRS say, "Ok time to take it out completely."?

It doesn't make sense that a nerf makes her execution turn from 4 frame links to 1 frame links. Everyone that is saying that is a necessary nerf, tell me why. The "We can still do it so it's fine" reason is complete garbage.

If NRS wanted to get rid of them, they'll probably do another patch to get rid of them completely, meaning ALL that lab time to execute a 1 frame link is a complete waste. If NRS wanted to keep them in the game, why is it necessary to make them 1 frame links instead of 4 frame links?

If the purpose of the nerf was solely to reduce her pressure, that could have been done differently.
in my opinion since day one d'vorah has been the best character in this game and requires the most execution. i think this nerf was extremely unfair and that nrs screwed up. i've literally never complained openly about a nerf or a patch untill this one. i don't even play d'vorah and it's hurting me cus now i'm scared that if a character is good they'll just increase the learning curve for the character to make people less likely to use them
 
I think they wanted to remove f112 loop, to avoid triple f112, like scorpion had with his 214 cancels.
For now f112~wgc is +12 on block, it's perfectly enough to ruin the f112 loop.
But if you heavily nerf f112 cancel advantage there will be a gap between f112 and ex ovi charge, so they did both nerfs to get this +12 and keep ex ovi :)
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
in my opinion since day one d'vorah has been the best character in this game and requires the most execution. i think this nerf was extremely unfair and that nrs screwed up. i've literally never complained openly about a nerf or a patch untill this one. i don't even play d'vorah and it's hurting me cus now i'm scared that if a character is good they'll just increase the learning curve for the character to make people less likely to use them
Don't worry about that, this was an unintentional side effect of trying to mess with f112 wc advantage. The 2 nerfs were basically a combination so they didn't have to completely nerf f112 itself.
 

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
WHY US F22 WASP CANCEL HARD AS HELL NOW. Seriously it's possible. But online this is gonna be a nightmare.
I'm alright with b1 and 112 because I don't use them. But f22 is my go to string other than f112. This is the most useless nerf ever. The first nerf was completely needed I agree. But the second one is just useless. Why make the combos harder.

If I can't master f22 wasp cancel I think I'm gonna suck
 

TopTierHarley

Kytinn King
WHY US F22 WASP CANCEL HARD AS HELL NOW. Seriously it's possible. But online this is gonna be a nightmare.
I'm alright with b1 and 112 because I don't use them. But f22 is my go to string other than f112. This is the most useless nerf ever. The first nerf was completely needed I agree. But the second one is just useless. Why make the combos harder.

If I can't master f22 wasp cancel I think I'm gonna suck
F22 isn't hard imo. It still feels the same honestly.
 
WHY US F22 WASP CANCEL HARD AS HELL NOW. Seriously it's possible. But online this is gonna be a nightmare.
I'm alright with b1 and 112 because I don't use them. But f22 is my go to string other than f112. This is the most useless nerf ever. The first nerf was completely needed I agree. But the second one is just useless. Why make the combos harder.

If I can't master f22 wasp cancel I think I'm gonna suck
B1 WGC is sadly much harder than that, at least for me.
 
I know it is much harder. f22 wasp cancel. I'm probly gonna use 11b2 for a bit. It's possible to do 212. But I'm gonna drop a lot of combos
I'm positive that you'll be able to get F22 WGC 212 consistently since even I was able to do it: the trick is to slide the finger on 2 immediately after the run cancel.
I'm not sure that I'll ever get B1 WGC 212 consistently after the patch tho.
 

tatterbug4

Bug of tater's
I'm positive that you'll be able to get F22 WGC 212 consistently since even I was able to do it: the trick is to slide the finger on 2 immediately after the run cancel.
I'm not sure that I'll ever get B1 WGC 212 consistently after the patch tho.
I knew how to do it. But this got my mind working and I'm getting it down much more faster. Trying to press 2 as soon as the run initiates. Basically run and 212 as one input
 

alkipot

Purse first, ass last.
My execution sucks generally, so I'm glad I stuck with venomous. Sorry to hear about the increased difficulty in WGC combos for you guys, though. At least D'Vorah can still do 39% damage with one bar midscreen and no WG cancels with Swarm Queen.

Sadly, I have a feeling more nerfs are coming for this character. I think the last three patches were all nerfs. Not dropping her though, no way. Gotta play someone interesting until SFV drops and I can use CHARLIE!
 

TopTierHarley

Kytinn King
it's definitely harder but didn't take more than one game to get used to. same thing F11 but b1 is impossible like don't even bother trying to learn it
I could already do B1 before the patch, and I can do them now, It just takes time to adjust, but it's easier if you already know what you are doing.

Also, the f22 timing is still the same. If you are having trouble with it, you were most likely canceling it late pre patch. I'm doing the same thing I always was and nothing has changed.