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Move List - Raiden ALL variants now have F12B2! (+ other changes)

No. Leave b2 special cancel-able. Just remove the option select. b2~ex-shocker DOES serve a purpose if you're going to make a read. Sometimes you're in positions where the first hit of b2 will reach, but the 2nd hit won't and you want to make a read. A read you can get blown up for though.

Don't make b2 non-special cancel-able. Just remove the OS please.
Yes removing the special cancel would hurt, but it would be better than making reg shocker unsafe right? Since I doubt their removing the OS this would be the next best thing. Or making B2 into a B2,2 input. B2, shocker would still be safe but b2,2 would not be able to option select. But I'm sure that would be to much work to fix it, as they would have to make separate frame data for the new one hit b2
 

buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
Yes removing the special cancel would hurt, but it would be better than making reg shocker unsafe right? Since I doubt their removing the OS this would be the next best thing. Or making B2 into a B2,2 input. B2, shocker would still be safe but b2,2 would not be able to option select. But I'm sure that would be to much work to fix it, as they would have to make separate frame data for the new one hit b2
I don't think making it 2 different moves would be that much work. They have the frame data for both attacks. And with the warlock quan chi change they can move moves around. It's just they would have to make these changes to everyone which imo would be where most of the work comes from. That seems like a whole rebalance to me.
 
I don't think making it 2 different moves would be that much work. They have the frame data for both attacks. And with the warlock quan chi change they can move moves around. It's just they would have to make these changes to everyone which imo would be where most of the work comes from. That seems like a whole rebalance to me.
They would have to make new frame data for hit/block for b2. Would the new b2 be safe on block? How much push back? how much advantage on hit? How much cancel advantage? That's a lot of balancing.

They could have adjusted frames on f1 and kept it a mid, but they went the easy route and made it a high and left everything else the same. I'm sure there going to fix the safe overhead with as little effort as possible.
 
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Chaosphere

The Free Meter Police
Yes removing the special cancel would hurt, but it would be better than making reg shocker unsafe right? Since I doubt their removing the OS this would be the next best thing. Or making B2 into a B2,2 input. B2, shocker would still be safe but b2,2 would not be able to option select. But I'm sure that would be to much work to fix it, as they would have to make separate frame data for the new one hit b2
Yeah I guess making shocker unsafe would be worse than making b2 un cancelable. But why not just fix the OS? Is it impossible? All I'm saying is that b2~ex-shocker can serve a purpose. Not the best purpose. But shit if the OS isn't fixable, then I guess make b2 non cancelable.
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
Yeah I guess making shocker unsafe would be worse than making b2 un cancelable. But why not just fix the OS? Is it impossible? All I'm saying is that b2~ex-shocker can serve a purpose. Not the best purpose. But shit if the OS isn't fixable, then I guess make b2 non cancelable.
Or how about do nothing unless it's warranted. Right now we are all theory fighting. How about we take the "wait and see if any adjustments are necessary" approach as opposed to the "..hmm how should we nerf Raiden next" one.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
I'm probably going to get crucified for saying this, but as a Raiden player I really don't like the idea of making our mix-ups safe. The whole idea of guessing correctly in a mix-up is to be rewarded, not go back to neutral.

However, you cannot simply remove option selects in fighting games. They always existed as part of how inputs are mapped out and how players take advantage of the fact that cancel windows for moves differ based on whether your attack whiffs or is blocked, among other things. Even if they are not favored, they are more than likely here to stay.

The best route would be to make it so that we cannot cancel either hit of the B2 on block. That way we are forced to play the mix-up game as it is meant to be played. Guess right, you are rewarded; guess wrong, get fucked.

A bit off-topic, but personally I don't understand the point in making Raiden's B3 4 special cancelable (yeah, not a word, but I'll deal). It now serves the same purpose as B3 3...I appreciate we got new tools, but I would like each of them to serve a unique purpose. I may have spoken too soon as we did just get the patch, so we shall see.
 
I'm probably going to get crucified for saying this, but as a Raiden player I really don't like the idea of making our mix-ups safe. The whole idea of guessing correctly in a mix-up is to be rewarded, not go back to neutral.

However, you cannot simply remove option selects in fighting games. They always existed as part of how inputs are mapped out and how players take advantage of the fact that cancel windows for moves differ based on whether your attack whiffs or is blocked, among other things. Even if they are not favored, they are more than likely here to stay.

The best route would be to make it so that we cannot cancel either hit of the B2 on block. That way we are forced to play the mix-up game as it is meant to be played. Guess right, you are rewarded; guess wrong, get fucked.

A bit off-topic, but personally I don't understand the point in making Raiden's B3 4 special cancelable (yeah, not a word, but I'll deal). It now serves the same purpose as B3 3...I appreciate we got new tools, but I would like each of them to serve a unique purpose. I may have spoken too soon as we did just get the patch, so we shall see.
B3,4 is much easier to confirm hit or block. Also if they remove the safe overhead in any way, I would want b2 to not be -63 lol. Can't it be something more reasonable like -15
 

SEV

Noob
B33 was also unsafe on block; specials wouldn't jail and the string itself was negative enough to be combo punished. They essentially were giving a safe low to MoS/Displacer by allowing B34 to be canceled.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
B33 was also unsafe on block; specials wouldn't jail and the string itself was negative enough to be combo punished. They essentially were giving a safe low to MoS/Displacer.
B3 4 by itself was less negative but still punishable. Cancelling it into the Shocker does solve that problem now, thank goodness.

I always thought that B3 4 was meant to be the safe option to fall back on if you did not have faith that your B3 3 would connect, but when I discovered it was -10 at best I looked at the move data and shook my head.
 

Raidenwins

Raiden Practitioner
I'm probably going to get crucified for saying this, but as a Raiden player I really don't like the idea of making our mix-ups safe. The whole idea of guessing correctly in a mix-up is to be rewarded, not go back to neutral.
In a game based on mix-ups where many other characters have safe 50/50s, why would you not want your character to have one too?! If he didn't, he would be severely at a disadvantage. Unless you can convince people on every other character's board that they don't need safe mix-ups either.
 

delbuster

hungry
B2 is like -30. If it was -63 or whatever my unblockables would punish this lol
im preeeeettty sure it is actually -63. you can jump in punish

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it's funny how b33 cancelable basically made noncancelable b34 obsolete, and now cancelable b34 makes b33 obsolete.
 
Displacer vs GM might be one of the few MUs thats heavily in displacers favor (esp when I could superman on reaction to clones, I saw clones as candy instead of an obstacle, and I also watch your stream more than anything else mkx related so when I fight mid level subs they quitality) so many characters give him and MOS problems though, unbreakable actually gives me issues because Im using so many normals and my jump is floaty so I can't just abuse cross ups, and the chip trait makes it so he can block a lot.
 
I have been waiting for someone to say that. What is the point of something being so negative anyway?
I think it actually works out perfectly- if it whiffs, you get to teabag me, switch stances, and then full combo punish (i bet kotal kahn could prob get a totem up lol) but the OS makes it so that if i do at least connect to a block Its not -100, delay wakeups/get up throws make me have to think, and lets all remember that armored wakeups will stuff raidens abusing the 50.50s
 
im preeeeettty sure it is actually -63. you can jump in punish

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it's funny how b33 cancelable basically made noncancelable b34 obsolete, and now cancelable b34 makes b33 obsolete.
whats the frames on b3 into shocker? I do it ALL the time esp midscreen because b33 pushes them away and I cant remember ever being punished for it without someone using armor
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
In a game based on mix-ups where many other characters have safe 50/50s, why would you not want your character to have one too?! If he didn't, he would be severely at a disadvantage. Unless you can convince people on every other character's board that they don't need safe mix-ups either.
I don't think you are giving Raiden enough credit as a character if you truly think that not having a safe 50/50 would cripple him, and I mean no disrespect when I say this. It may just be me, but I look at what the character can do as a whole rather than just worry about my ability to go overhead or low. :)

And for the record, no, I don't think anyone else in the cast should have a safe 50/50 because, as I said, that completely destroys the risk-reward concept that comes with mixups. The only time I find it acceptable is if they expend resources to make it safe, like when Sub-Zero burns meter for his Ice Ball after going for his low string so that he's safe on block.
 
After thinking about it, if they made shocker unsafe for the OS, that would defeat the whole point of the b3,4 buff. That would just make raiden have two unsafe low starters in MoS/Displacer. Id say shocker is going to stay as it is.
 
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buyacushun

Normalize grab immunity.
They would have to make new frame data for hit/block for b2. Would the new b2 be safe on block? How much push back? how much advantage on hit? How much cancel advantage? That's a lot of balancing.

They could have adjusted frames on f1 and kept it a mid, but they went the easy route and made it a high and left everything else the same. I'm sure there going to fix the safe overhead with as little effort as possible. I'm worried that would be making shocker unsafe
I'm a dummy and forgot b2 is one move. My thought process was more for strings yet i was also combining the situation of b2 into that. woops.

Not to you specifically just throwing out a thought. Without NRS giving us a statement I fail to see how OSes can stay. Raiden's may be a little harder to get rid of. Maybe shorten the cancel window because IIRC it's just a late cancel timing. As for some others like doing certain specials/strings on block/hit that seems to just be the way the game accepts/buffers inputs. Wouldn't that be an easy thing to change?

My stance on everything else. Shocker shouldn't be made unsafe, I personally don't feel right changing a character's main way of becoming relatively safe this early because of game bugs. Even though I love the new low confirm it is a bit . . . odd to give that out of everything they could do. What if they made the OH have more startup but way less recovery. Like -10 or something. So you could react to it and whiff punish but it isn't certain death though, for both sides.
 

GamerBlake90

Blue Blurs for Life!
B2 should remain very punishable on block or whiff, although perhaps -65 is pushing it...closer to somewhere between -20 and -30 would be understandable.

I can accept a safe low, but having your low and overhead both be safe options just seems a little much. Again, I apply this logic to all of the cast, not just Raiden.
 

STRYKIE

Are ya' ready for MK11 kids?!
im preeeeettty sure it is actually -63. you can jump in punish

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it's funny how b33 cancelable basically made noncancelable b34 obsolete, and now cancelable b34 makes b33 obsolete.
Jump ins into long range normals can make contact in less than 30 frames. Also, Erron's X-ray didn't punish B2 either when I was fishing for his new brutality. It's probably -32 or so.