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General/Other - Swarm Queen Why the second D'Vorah nerf is unnecessary

Is the second nerf necessary?


  • Total voters
    149

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
That low meterless launcher is full combo punishable on reaction or read since its like a 50 frame startup. So dangerous to just throw it out against people that know they can press buttons, and it's even dangerous to use as an ender on a blocked string, but for some reason some people still block it Instead of punishing or moving.
It is sooooo not my problem if you don't know how to play D'vorah correctly. I'm clearly comparing the benefits of Swarm Queen over her other variations. Her puddle has combo potential in the other variations but not anywhere near the lift you get with swarm queen. If anything, brood mother should get the guaranteed cancel mix ups and swarm queen should remain the high damage variation.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
It is sooooo not my problem if you don't know how to play D'vorah correctly. I'm clearly comparing the benefits of Swarm Queen over her other variations. Her puddle has combo potential in the other variations but not anywhere near the lift you get with swarm queen. If anything, brood mother should get the guaranteed cancel mix ups and swarm queen should remain the high damage variation.
If you still get hit with puddles then you dont know how to fight SQ. Other than meaty setups it is super avoidable in all variations.

But I only played her from day 3, I know nothing :rolleyes:
 

Rude

You will serve me in The Netherrealm
So, i have a question.

When you are doing your cancel pressure, why don't you use d4 when you're at + frames?

Hear me out: D4 on hit gives you + frames, right? So what if you did your cancel pressure and run canceled into the OH or d4?

With the D4, you could condition them to block low, which would open up the overhead. Either that, or they take the d4 into more pressure into another guess between the two.

Cage works kind of like this in A-List. I'm really asking, not trying to police your forums.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
If you still get hit with puddles then you dont know how to fight SQ. Other than meaty setups it is super avoidable in all variations.

But I only played her from day 3, I know nothing :rolleyes:
You've been playing her since day 3 and are still completely unaware of the benefit of meterless SQ puddle in combos. Got it. Neeeeext! :coffee:
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
It is sooooo not my problem if you don't know how to play D'vorah correctly. I'm clearly comparing the benefits of Swarm Queen over her other variations. Her puddle has combo potential in the other variations but not anywhere near the lift you get with swarm queen. If anything, brood mother should get the guaranteed cancel mix ups and swarm queen should remain the high damage variation.
What makes Swarm Queen really powerful is the wcs, not the db1. The db1 is so easy to avoid and punish in most situations it's insane. You really don't know much about this character tbh, the other 2 variations have comparable damage as far as combos go.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
What makes Swarm Queen really powerful is the wcs, not the db1. The db1 is so easy to avoid and punish in most situations it's insane. You really don't know much about this character tbh, the other 2 variations have comparable damage as far as combos go.
I know that 212 puddle is vastly different damage between variations due to the amount of lift you get, but please feel free to keep making a fool of yourself.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
You've been playing her since day 3 and are still completely unaware of the benefit of meterless SQ puddle in combos. Got it. Neeeeext! :coffee:
You said as a combo starter, not in combos. Of course its good in combos, its good in combos in the other variations too.

But if you do it as a starter it will get punished every time against good players.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
So, i have a question.

When you are doing your cancel pressure, why don't you use d4 when you're at + frames?

Hear me out: D4 on hit gives you + frames, right? So what if you did your cancel pressure and run canceled into the OH or d4?

With the D4, you could condition them to block low, which would open up the overhead. Either that, or they take the d4 into more pressure into another guess between the two.

Cage works kind of like this in A-List. I'm really asking, not trying to police your forums.
I've started playing that way a lot, especially against characters like Cassie since I play against her every day. Keep em out for a while with the long range pokes, get them to block low, then get em with an f22 wc bnb from a distance and go ham with mixups and pressure. Really heavy neutral stuff. I think d4 isn't used enough in SQ atm, but I think it'll change soon.

I know that 212 puddle is vastly different damage between variations due to the amount of lift you get, but please feel free to keep making a fool of yourself.
Not really. Just doing midscreen here, but SQ gets 33%~ off just 212 xx db1 bnbs, Venemous gets about 32% off of it too, and BM gets about 33% with a Krawler setup into 212 xx db1 etc or 32%(31%?) with 212 xx krawler f34 b12 airthrow.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
I've started playing that way a lot, especially against characters like Cassie since I play against her every day. Keep em out for a while with the long range pokes, get them to block low, then get em with an f22 wc bnb from a distance and go ham with mixups and pressure. Really heavy neutral stuff. I think d4 isn't used enough in SQ atm, but I think it'll change soon.


Not really as far as meterless goes. Just doing midscreen here, but SQ gets 33%~ off just 212 xx db1 bnbs, Venemous gets about 32% off of it too, and BM gets about 33% with a Krawler setup into 212 xx db1 etc or 32%(31%?) with 212 xx krawler f34 b12 airthrow.
Sorry but you are wrong about venemous combo damage. She doesnt break 30% when using regular puddle, she only uses EX puddle in her combos.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Sorry but you are wrong about venemous combo damage. She doesnt break 30% when using regular puddle, she only uses EX puddle in her combos.
212 xx db1, d1, f22 xx db4 is 32% if I counted the poison damage right

Or wait maybe its 31.5%, but either way it's close.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
You said as a combo starter, not in combos. Of course its good in combos, its good in combos in the other variations too.

But if you do it as a starter it will get punished every time against good players.
Point blank yes, but as an oki setup and full screen it's still very good. Can't she run in and combo from far away in swarm queen off of a puddle? That option is definitely not available in the other variations.
 

BillStickers

Do not touch me again.
I've started playing that way a lot, especially against characters like Cassie since I play against her every day. Keep em out for a while with the long range pokes, get them to block low, then get em with an f22 wc bnb from a distance and go ham with mixups and pressure. Really heavy neutral stuff. I think d4 isn't used enough in SQ atm, but I think it'll change soon.


Not really. Just doing midscreen here, but SQ gets 33%~ off just 212 xx db1 bnbs, Venemous gets about 32% off of it too, and BM gets about 33% with a Krawler setup into 212 xx db1 etc or 32%(31%?) with 212 xx krawler f34 b12 airthrow.
Talking specifically about meterless puddle itself. Using krawler mid-combo is a waste of a krawler unless you're closing out a round.
 

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Point blank yes, but as an oki setup and full screen it's still very good. Can't she run in and combo from far away in swarm queen off of a puddle? That option is definitely not available in the other variations.
I already mentioned meaty vortex being good. And it only works from fullscreen as a trade, otherwise you can just run forward.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Point blank yes, but as an oki setup and full screen it's still very good. Can't she run in and combo from far away in swarm queen off of a puddle? That option is definitely not available in the other variations.
Yeah she can. It can go over 30% in the corner and is about 30% off a raw puddle midscreen, but I can't remember the last time I've hit anyone with a raw puddle outside of catching someone lazily throwing projectiles from full screen and not reacting to it. It's just not a good idea most of the time, since a lot of characters can full combo punish it from full screen.

It's best use is basically what zoidberg is telling you. In combos and off a setup.

Talking specifically about meterless puddle itself. Using krawler mid-combo is a waste of a krawler unless you're closing out a round.
See above
 
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Krayzie

Safeties disabled. Krayzie mode engaged!
Exactly. For those saying that the second nerf is justified because D'Vorah is "too good" and therefore, let's make her bnbs significantly harder to do, it doesn't answer the question. The top D'Vorah players will still go into the lab and force themselves to adjust to a 1 frame link but my question is WHY? What does it accomplish? She still has the same tools and once the players put another 24+ hours of labbing to learn the execution, will NRS say, "Ok time to take it out completely."?

It doesn't make sense that a nerf makes her execution turn from 4 frame links to 1 frame links. Everyone that is saying that is a necessary nerf, tell me why. The "We can still do it so it's fine" reason is complete garbage.

If NRS wanted to get rid of them, they'll probably do another patch to get rid of them completely, meaning ALL that lab time to execute a 1 frame link is a complete waste. If NRS wanted to keep them in the game, why is it necessary to make them 1 frame links instead of 4 frame links?

If the purpose of the nerf was solely to reduce her pressure, that could have been done differently.

@Krayzie
@Blind_Ducky
@Everyone that thinks the second nerf is necessary.
I made a post where I mentioned why this happened to her.

For those of you who feel that she needed a guaranteed 50/50 for the purpose of execution = reward, I understand. I'm a firm believer in "hard work should pay off." However, please understand this. F112 wc B1 or F2 is only interruptible by an armored move, or a backdash which takes stamina! And this is assuming your opponent is dumb enough to do it, considering 212 is still guaranteed!

And for those who are upset that she is much harder to use now. I also understand and feel your pain. Just be happy that she still has her core gameplay intact.

Also, something to keep in mind. When I tested armoring out of D'Vorah F112 wc B1, I tested this with Cassie's power flip.

This is why I feel the nerf was warranted, and most likely why it was done.

To begin, I want to mention I pretty much almost have the cancels down to normal again.

The 2 frame decrease did nothing to her f112 since 212 still jails. Obviously they intended for it to jail.

The 3 frame increase on wc is only terrifying because the timing on her wc combos and pressure changed. However it is the same at the end of the day.

Now, the reason... f112 wc b1 no longer jails. Meaning f112 wc f22 does not jail either.

This was the motive, and I can tell you from experience, I got consistent at doing it and it was dirty.

Can we still do it? Absolutely. The way it works now is the opponent can armor or backdash before the b1 on read, otherwise 212 still jails.

D'Vorah never moved from whatever tier placement she was on.

Let's just fish for props for using the most technical character in the game hands down now. :)
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Video coming soon...

There shouldn't be 8 pages of this... There should be 8 pages of why Brood Mother was left untouched...
If they ever remove or lower the krawler cd to like 1 or 2 seconds and/or remove 3ish frames from bug blast start up, I think I might die from a combination of shock and happiness. That is, assuming I don't die on the plane ride to Florida in a few hours. Airplanes............

Really don't think BM will get those nice buffs, but I'm willing to risk my life by asking them nicely and frequently until it happens or the game dies.
 

Take$$$

gotta take it to make it
Key Notables:

1. Kotal Kahn cannot D4 out of F112 wc B1. His D4 is 6 frames.
2. Kotal Kahn can Armor/Backdash out of F112 wc B1.
3. F112 wc 212 jails. Nothing can be done other than block.

B1 = 11 start up frames
2 = 10 start up frames

Huh, I was just testing out b1 off of f112 and apparently f112 wc b1 is still guaranteed when done fast enough. That has to mean f112 wc is NOT +11 but rather +12, right?