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Video/Tutorial - Grandmaster Sub-Zero needs B12~Clone and F42~Clone to be safe

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Wetdoba

All too easy...
Title of this thread might as well be renamed "Grandmaster SubZero needs to have no bad match ups and a safe clone set up off everything" because that is clearly what you are going for

Characters are allowed to have bad match ups, ice clone is already a huge problem for a lot of characters. If Balanced Kenshi is annoying for GM Sub, then how about you play the game as intended and pick a different variation for the match up? Take your own advice and "Level Up" Tom. Another buff demanding thread is just pathetic considering this character is already very good
 
I would be OK with these adjustments as long as Sub Zero is at -5 after the clone. But I would also add more recovery frames to a whiffed slide.

It is interesting that the vast majority of high level players (i.e., Cowboy, DetroitBalln, Rebelo, etc.) have quit playing the character.
I that is reasonable. Funny how safe 50/50s are fine but clone cancels need to be punished on reaction consistently.


In the corner can't you smash ice clone to hit jumpers? Or d4 them if they try to attack through the clone?

Can't you also counter poke in the neutral instead of ending all strings in clone?

Can sz punish a point blank sc from kenshi?
Just about every character in the game punishes clone cancels on reaction to the cancel. There is no poke and block to bait because the attack you are baiting will never come unless you clone. Also, SZ is left at high negative frames after almost every attack which basically guarantees the opponent a 50/50 attempt in a game where most of the 50/50's are safe.
 

FpS__King

Keep it Free.
I would be OK with these adjustments as long as Sub Zero is at -5 after the clone. But I would also add more recovery frames to a whiffed slide.

It is interesting that the vast majority of high level players (i.e., Cowboy, DetroitBalln, Rebelo, etc.) have quit playing the character.
Rebelo still plays Sub, He never stopped.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Yo I'm a serious Sub main, no two ways about it


But..... can't you just hitconfirm during the relatively long-ass B12 animation, and just block, on block?




Like, I get that we aint getting anything for say closing the gap to Kenshi, but the fact that we just opened with B12 and not one of either of the overhead/low 50/50 combo starters to capitilise on this, and went for the greedy but more damaging Mid, and then got blocked for it.... isn't that fair?


And assuming he predicts the 50/50 correctly (or just blocks the Mid B12, in your example), why should we get an unpunishable Clone for free out of that?





Like, I'm on board with you dude, but just tryna understand
 
Title of this thread might as well be renamed "Grandmaster SubZero needs to have no bad match ups and a safe clone set up off everything" because that is clearly what you are going for

Characters are allowed to have bad match ups, ice clone is already a huge problem for a lot of characters. If Balanced Kenshi is annoying for GM Sub, then how about you play the game as intended and pick a different variation for the match up? Take your own advice and "Level Up" Tom. Another buff demanding thread is just pathetic considering this character is already very good
Did people level up vs SZ? or did a change happen and now the clone doesnt work right? Fools say foolish things..
 
Yo I'm a serious Sub main, no two ways about it


But..... can't you just hitconfirm during the relatively long-ass B12 animation, and just block, on block?




Like, I get that we aint getting anything for say closing the gap to Kenshi, but the fact that we just opened with B12 and not one of either of the overhead/low combo starters to capitilise on this, and went for the greedy but more damaging Mid, and then got blocked for it.... isn't that fair?


And assuming he predicts the 50/50 correctly (or just blocks the Mid B12, in your example), why should we get an unpunishable Clone for free out of that?





Like, I'm on board with you dude, but just tryna understand

Even SZ players dont understand his own limitations. If you SZ mains are ok losing several match ups 3-7 like the old days then I dont think you know what you are sayng.
 

I GOT HANDS

Official Infrared Scorp wid gapless Wi-Fi pressure
Even SZ players dont understand his own limitations.
Apparently not. I know we mid tier, I know we ain't dominating the competitive scene, I know you are our competitive figurehead... but I'm just asking a question, how is anything I just said wrong at all?

Or are we so far behind fundamentally that the only way we are balanced is getting safe Klones off every block confirm?



I'm just tryna "level up" here myself
 
Apparently not. I know we mid tier, I know we ain't dominating the competitive scene, I know you are our competitive figurehead... but I'm just asking a question, how is anything I just said wrong at all?

Or are we so far behind fundamentally that the only way we are balanced is getting safe Klones off every block confirm?



I'm just tryna "level up" here myself
Again.. you think your best option should be block and eat a SAFE 50/50 or maybe clone and eat a full combo? Maybe if SZ wasnt left at high negative frames and almost everything it would be different.

Clone doesnt work right. SZ is unsafe almost every time he clones. People can already hurt the defensive ability of clone and now you think offensively it should be death when its used.
 
F42-clone being safe is a silly idea. It has huge range and hits mid. F42 is safe on its own and SZ is one of the few characters with a good backdash, plus he has puesdo-safe launching armour to play a good mind game after f42 on block. Just hit confirm that move, Sub should not get to play his clone game after that move is blocked, be real.
You hit confirm into what? hit confirm f42 into anything is punishable


The character is probably not "low tier" enough to get this buff
 

LucaTheRipper

RULES OF NATURE!
Btw SZ Grandmaster is my step-char but against Kenshi i think GM is a bad matchup, this is why we get Cryomancer... In some examples like a simple jab takes the clone away is really ridiculous and surely need a fix.
 

EGP Wonder_Chef

Official Quan Chi Nerf Demander™
Just about every character in the game punishes clone cancels on reaction to the cancel. There is no poke and block to bait because the attack you are baiting will never come unless you clone. Also, SZ is left at high negative frames after almost every attack which basically guarantees the opponent a 50/50 attempt in a game where most of the 50/50's are safe.
That's not true, without meter these characters can't punish:
Jax
Lao
Sub himself I think
Johnny
Raiden (depending on the clone range)
Erron Black (depending on the clone range)
Sonya
Kano
Goro (maybe with stomp actually?)
Liu
Jason
Reptile
Kitana

Maybe others but i'm not sure. That's a good amount of characters.

And a lot of characters that punish clone on reaction can be baited using EN clone. Like if Quan does Trance or Ermac does Lift and you do an EN Clone, you can block in time and full combo punish.


Just sayin.
 

BloodyNights

"My kunai will find it's mark."
Let's be real here Tom, the main reason you want the clone to be safe, is so Sub-Zero can basically have two 50/50 guesses, especially if he traps them in the corner, which will make his unsafe but hard to punish overhead safe, and give him another oppurtunity to do another one, or go low.

Also MK9 sub's clone didn't have the unique property of trading with projectiles. Which means a lot of the cast has trouble doing anything against the ice clone already. Maybe not the top tiers, but you should really just be asking that they get nerfed instead.

Currently I agree with GGA Dizzy, in stating that Sub-Zero has all the tools that could allow him to be top 5 in the game, at the very minimum he is top 10. Level up man.
 
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