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Match-Up Discussion - Takeda The Compendium of Takeda Notes

BoricuaHeat

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
This is a list of various notes I've compiled with my recent training room sessions with Takeda and I intend to include as much information as possible from various sources. These bits of info will usually range from a variety of topic such as knowing how to use your specific variation versus a certain character, what punished you should know and what to look out for before starting your gameplan (some slight facts to keep in mind when reading some of the character notes specifically when certain strings are referred to: *= String can be armored through at this point **=String can be armored and back dashed at this point).

At the moment it's just a rough draft that will contain errors, but overtime I'll be sure to edit it with more precise info so if any of you catch something that's off let me know. Also if anyone has any other tid bits of info let me know, I'll eventually read everything that's sent. Now without further delay lets get into it.

Universal
Shirai Ryu:

B21 > Spear can be used to create a gapless blockstring versus certain characters, however it needs to be at an ideal range which is a back dash away from starting position with two slight steps forward. If done further the opponent can armor through.

F122+4 (1 hit) > Feint is -9 on block

F122+4 > Feint is -6 on block

B21 > Feint is -7 on block

Lasher:

Every character can backdash max range Low Slash > Whip Trip and in some cases backwards jump out but not many can punish after doing this. Every single one can also armor through it unless specified (very hard to do on reaction), however you can't jump as it has a 7 frame gap.

Low Slash > Kunai not recommended as they can just jump out on reaction. Interesting fact about Low Slash > Close Kunai, they can mash out with 6 frame D1's but will then get hit by the Kunai which allows Takeda to go for more pressure.

They can't armor through F122+4 if canceled into Whip Trip (and if they try to armor through the gap before the overhead you can Whip Trip to catch them trying to use a reversal armor move), same goes for B21.

If you read their jump after a blocked Whip Trip after B21 or F122+4, you can use DF1 to catch people jumping or attempt to go for an uppercut.

Ronin:

B212+4 > Blade Drop is +4 on block

Versus Kotal (tested versus War God)
Universal: String gaps: 21(gap)2*.

Shirai Ryu: Watch out for War God armored moves as they lead into full combos. If your out of stamina for teleport feints, you can use B21 > Spear at ideal range you remain safe from any kind of punish.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with F1 and D4 at close range so really no big deal as any further than that he has no means of punishing (note: if canceled from F122+4 at close range he cannot punish). Don't abuse max range Low Slash > Whip Trip although he does not have a meterless punish as he can armor through it in War God for a full combo on reaction.

Ronin: Be wary of his D1 as he can easily poke out of pressure.

Versus Scorpion (tested versus Hellfire)
Universal: String gaps: 11(gap)4**.

Shirai Ryu: He can reversal teleport out of B21 > Kunai for a full combo but this can be baited using a teleport feint. If you go for F122+4 > Kunai he can only go for Enhanced Takedown which can also be baited using teleport feint. Also if he attempts to mash out of the gap in F122+4 you can also bait that with a feint. Don't go for B21 > Spear as he will teleport punish on reaction.

Lasher: He can punish Whip Trip on reaction with reversal Takedown even from max range. Max range Low Slash > Whip Trip can be backwards jumped out and full combo punished with teleports.

Ronin: Be wary of his D1 as he can more easily poke out of pressure. You also have to watch out for teleports if your trying to use your projectile or run the risk of getting full combo punished

Versus Raiden (tested versus Thunder God)
Universal: String gaps: (Thunder God) 3(gap)2+4*.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armor moves using teleport feints after your main strings from any range (F122+4 and B21). Don't go for B21 > Spear, he will ay mi no maeh you.

Lasher: He can always punish a blocked Whip Trip unless you used it at starting distance (if not he gets a full combo punish with F1) so be sure to keep your spacing in mind. Low Slash > Whip Trip can be armored through for a full combo with his ENDF2, he can also jump back for an air superman whiff punish and after reversal backdash he can superman you for a whiff punish.

Ronin: Watch for him disrespecting you with F1 during Blade Drop/Call pressure as he can get a full combo punish.

Versus Erron Black (tested versus Outlaw)
Universal: String gaps: B32(gap)D1**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armor moves using feints but have to immediately jump out if he chooses to use his enhanced command grab.

Lasher: He cannot punish a blocked Whip Trip. Low Slash > Whip Trip from max range can be interrupted by enhanced command grab, however he cannot get a punish after he back dashes or back jumps out (at least in outlaw).

Ronin: Blade Drop pressure is very effective since his D1 starts up in 8 frames it makes it a lot harder for him to disrespect you without wasting meter

Versus Jax (tested versus Wrestler)
Universal: String gaps: 12(gap)4**, D1(gap)D2*, 2(gap)3(gap)2**, B3(gap)D2*, (Wrestler) F3(gap)1+3**, (Wrestler) F4(gap)1+3.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his reversal armor moves using feints.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip using his bionic arm (BF2) from almost anywhere that's not max range. He cannot meterless punish Low Slash > Whip Trip, but he gets a full combo punish using armor with BFD2.

Ronin:

Versus D'Vorah (Swarm Queen and Venomous at the moment)
Universal: String gaps: 11(gap)3**, 21(gap)2**. BF2 and F12 can be used to escape swarm vortex set ups due to forward momentum. NJP will beat all wake ups if timed properly on knockdown. Be wary of F112 > Wasp Cancel as she is +16 and allows for a free 50/50, however blocking either the high (F22) or low (B1) leave her with no other option but to special cancel which allows for a counter poke or in F22's case, armoring through for a punish.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait her armored reversal moves using feints. You can safely use B21 > Spear at the ideal range. No need to bait armored reversals at max range when special cancelling into kunai due to her only armored move whiffing when she's in that distance.

Lasher: She can punish a blocked Whip Trip with DB4 unless it's done a step further than starting distance (this includes canceling into it from F122+4 up close). She has no meterless punish for Low Slash > Whip Trip if done at max range. No need to bait armored reversals at max range when special cancelling into kunai due to her only armored move whiffing when she's in that distance. Her Venom Spray can be punished on block with reversal Whip Trip/Flurry. Watch out for her pokes as they increase her DoT.

Ronin: Blade Drop pressure is very effective due to her D1 starting up at 8 frames making it much harder to disrespect you and if she uses a bar she won't get much of a punish with DB4 to my knowledge.

Versus Kung Jin (tested versus Boujutsu)
Universal: String gaps: F2D1(gap)U2**, (Shaolin) 22(gap)1**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armored reversals using feints. Don't use B21 > Spear, he can always punish with BF3.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with BF3 unless it's done from max range (B21 > Whip Trip). He can also punish Low Slash > Whip Trip with BF3 and interrupt for a full combo punish with his enhanced stick moves.

Ronin:

Versus Sonya (tested versus Covert Ops)
Universal: String gaps: B1(gap)4**, 2(gap)13(gap)4*.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all her armored reversals using feints. You can use B21 > Spear at the ideal range and not get punished for it.

Lasher: She punish a blocked Whip Trip with BF4 if you used it anywhere that's not starting distance or further (sadly this includes canceling into it from F122+4 up close). She has no meterless punish for max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin: Be wary of her parry as it will stop your offense.

Versus Ferra/Torr (tested versus Lackey)
Universal: String gaps: (Lackey) 4(gap)2+3.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armored reversals using feints, however you have to be weary of jumping out of reversal command grab if he's in range for it. If they use Lackey feel free to use B21 > Spear at its ideal range as he has no means of punishing it.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with reversal BF2 unless it's done three steps away from starting distance. He has no meterless punish against max range Low Slash > Whip Trip but gets a full combo punish by armoring through with enhanced DB2.

Ronin: Be careful when using your projectile as they can use enhanced BF3 to armor through it and get that knockdown on you.

Versus Cassie Cage (tested versus Hollywood)
Universal: String gaps: 12(gap)1**, B12(gap)4**, 33(gap)2**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all her armored reversals using feints. She can punish B21 > Spear at ideal range with Enhanced BF1.

Lasher: She can punish a blocked Whip Trip with D4 if not done one step further from starting distance. She cannot meterless punish max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin:

Versus Kung Lao (tested versus Buzzsaw)
Universal: String gaps: 11212(gap)4*, F2(gap)3**, 4(gap)4**, B32(gap)1.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait his reversals after B21 with feints but not with F122+4 as he can punish you regardless. Not a good idea to go for B21 >Spear if he has meter, cause you know, enhanced spins.

Lasher: After a blocked Whip Trip he can always punish with Enhanced Spin unless it's done a step back from starting distance (meterless he only gets D4), so yeah don't risk going for F122+4 > Whip Trip if he's got the bar. He gets a full combo meterless if he jumps back after a max range Low Slash > Whip Trip and can get a full combo punish with armor cause you know, spins and shit.

Ronin: His best meterless escapes for Blade Drop/Call pressure involve either using his D1 (8 frames) or YOLO spin (7 frames, beat him up if he does this shit).

Versus Ermac (tested versus Master of Souls)
Universal: String gaps: F3(gap)4** (you need 2 hits of armor to beat the string).

Shirai Ryu: You can bait his armor moves during your strings with feints. B21 > Spear can be full combo punished at ideal range.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with BF2 if done too close (canceled from F122+4), from starting distance Mac can't punish but he can go for a ghetto 50/50 with his F4 and sweep if he fails to input reversal BF2 so watch out for that, however anything further than that he has no options to punish. He can backwards jump out of max range Low Slash > Whip Trip and punish with a teleport for a full combo,

Ronin: His armored moves aren't very good (he only nets like 5% for a bar) so you only have to look out for him trying to poke out with his D1 (6 frames), also don't use your projectile cause your just asking to get ported on.

Versus Quan Chi (tested versus Summoner)
Universal: You can use F122+4 during oki to stuff his armored reversal and get a full combo follow up (especially useful in Ronin).

Shirai Ryu:

Lasher: Abuse Whip Trip since he cannot punish it at any range. He cannot get a meterless punish on Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin: Pay him back for all the people this scumbag has vortexed with Blade Drop/Call pressure. His D1 starts up at 9 frames so his options to escape out of pressure after B212+4 > Blade Call boil down to back dash which you can catch using B3 or run cancel F122+4 and using his armor move.

Versus Subzero (tested versus Grandmaster)
Universal:

Shirai Ryu: You can bait his slide using B21 from three steps away from starting distance or max range F122+4 with feints.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with slide unless your at least three steps away from starting distance. He cannot meterless punish max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin: If he attempts to reversal clone after blocking B212+4/F122+4 > Blade Drop (be sure to place it mid range to catch back dash attempts), just use F12+4 to punish him for decent combo. Also his pokes are as bad as Quan Chi so once you got them respecting you go ham son and if you predict a back dash Enhance Blade Summon for a full combo punish or if your feeling yourself go for a run up F122+4.

Versus Liu Kang (tested versus Dragons Fire)
Universal: String gaps: 11(gap)3**, F12(gap)3**, 2(gap)B2**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armored reversals using feints. Do not use B21 > Spear.

Lasher: He cannot punish a blocked Whip Trip or meterless punish a max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin:

Versus Kenshi (tested versus Balanced)
Universal: String gaps: 44(gap)1**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armored reversals using feints. Do not use B21 > Spear.

Lasher: He cannot punish a blocked Whip Trip or meterless punish a max range Low Slash > Whip Trip. Note: I went ahead and tested his other variations and he still cannot punish in both scenarios.

Ronin:

Versus Johnny (A List/Fisticuffs at the moment)
Universal: String gaps: (Fisticuffs) B12(gap)1**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armored reversals with feints.

Lasher: His only means of punishing a blocked Whip Trip is by using ENBF4 which you can also block if you perform Whip Trip at about three steps from starting distance. He has no meterless punish for max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin:

Versus Jacqui (tested versus Full Auto)
Universal: String gaps: 233(gap)4**. You can low profile any string canceled into rockets with D3.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all her armored reversals with feints. Well timed air spear or tele will punish full screen guns.

Lasher: She cannot punish a blocked whip trip or meterless punish max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin:

Versus Kano (tested versus Cybernetic)
Universal: 11(gap)2**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all armored reversals with feints.

Lasher: He can punish a block Whip Trip with B1 and reversal Up Ball unless it's done one step away from starting distance. He cannot punish meterless punish max range Low Slash > Whip Trip but can get a short combo with an armor interrupt.

Ronin:

Versus Shinnok (tested versus Impostor)
Universal: String gaps: 112(gap)3**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all armored reversals with feints.

Lasher: He can punish a block Whip Trip with F4 for a full combo unless it's done from starting distance. He cannot meterless punish max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin:

Versus Reptile (tested versus Deceptive)
Universal: String gaps: 14(gap)1**.

Shirai Ryu: You can only start baiting his armored reversals when your a back dash away from starting distance with B21 > Feint and F122+4 > Feint.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with Slide or BF2 (full combo follow up if enhanced) if done from starting and he can punish max range Whip Trip with Enhanced Slide. He cannot meterless punish max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin: Go ham, his pokes suck and all you gotta do is bait his armored slide.

Versus Goro (tested versus Kuatan Warrior)
Universal: B12(gap)U2**, F21(gap)2+4**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all his armored reversals unless it's a command grab up close. In that case you can start baiting his reversal command grab when your harassing him at full screen.

Lasher: He can punish a blocked Whip Trip with BF2 (and his command grab if up close) unless it's done three steps away from starting distance. He cannot meterless punish a max range Low Slash > Whip Trip but always gets a full combo with an armored interrupt.

Ronin:

Mileena (Piercing/Ravenous at the moment)
Universal: String gaps: B12(gap)1+3**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all her reversals using feints.

Lasher: She cannot punish a blocked Whip Trip or meterless punish a max range Low Slash > Whip Trip but she can interrupt for a full combo.

Ronin: You can go ham (her pokes suck) but you run the risk of getting full combo'd by her armored overhead so watch out for that and your set.

Kitana (tested versus Royal Storms)
Universal: String gaps: F33(gap)4**.

Shirai Ryu: You can bait all her reversals with feints.

Lasher: She can punish a blocked Whip Trip with BF3 unless it's done three steps away from starting distance. She cannot meterless punish a max range Low Slash > Whip Trip.

Ronin: Her options to poke out of pressure are average (8 frame D1 and no follow ups after armored reversals) so just bait accordingly and you'll be fine.

EDIT: Forgot to add some Takeda's to get some more info flowing here, @Zyphox @HomeLee1121 @RedRaptor10 @ICED_MOON22 @LiangHuBBB @Cage Redfield
 
Last edited:
Bomborge

Bomborge

Aspiring scrub
Were all these tested out with the new hotfix? Since Whip Trips block advantage got buffed and all.
 
aieches

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
man i was just thinking about how something like this could be brought to the Takeda forums.. you my friend hit it on the nose! i see only good things to come from this.
 
BoricuaHeat

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Thank you all for the possitive feedback.

I'm also going to look over the other members of the cast for today and have some notes posted and with that we'll have at least a section per character at the moment.
 
Zoidberg747

Zoidberg747

My blades will find your heart
Ill give some hints on the Dvorah MU since I main her, feel free to add them.

Swarm Queen

Takeda's Fist Flurry or f12 moves him forward enough to avoid swarm vortex setups
She cannot punish max ranged F1/B2 tele cancels.
She cannot armor through kunai setups if they are far away, can armor through up close though.
Once you knock her down NJP beats all her wakeups and she really cant do much about it. Abuse that shit
If she does f112(forward advancing string) wasp cancel she is +16 and can, if done correctly, get a free 50/50. But both of her 50/50 options(b1 cancel or f22 cancel) are negative and allow for countepoking
Can armor through F22 wasp cancel

Venemous
Spray is always punishable by whip/fist flurry, just mash the special while holding block and it will come out on the first frame
She can't punish max range tele cancels. Bait out F22 because at best she does f224 and is -8, gives you a counterpoke chance.
Watch out for her pokes(each poke increases DoT)
Learn to tech throws

I play against Quan Chi summoner a lot too:

Quan Chi(summoner)
This is one of the only MUs where Takeda can just go ham, and should do so.
Quan Chi Cant punish tele cancels, can counterpoke only if you do them right next to him
If he does armor sky drop f12 2+4 hits him out of it. This means that if you knock him down f12 2+4 is a great oki tool as that is his only wakeup
He can only backdash out of kunai, and his backdash has a lot of recovery
Don't get hit lol

Jacqui(Full Auto)
If she sits full screen using guns, you can do a well timed jump air spear. You can also do a tele or armor tele on a hard read. Otherwise just duck and walk in like everyone else.
I find in this MU you need to bait out her wakeups, as they are armored but super punishable(I punish with F12)
You can low profile any string into rockets with d3 and then get your own pressure in
Tele cancels and Kunai arent great in this MU because she can armor through kunai setups and can shoot guns to punish you for tele cancels(you can block it but it puts you in a bad situation)
 
aieches

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
Zoidberg747 said:
This is from my personal notes but I figured Id post it anyway

Note: Interruptible strings are strings with frame gaps between two of the moves. This means that you can armor through most gaps, especially if your armor comes out on the first frame. I dont have the know-how to find how much of a frame gap there is in strings, just that there is one. Also keep in mind your opponent can get smart and just end the string early or cancel it into a special.

For references sake I armored through strings with Takeda's EX Shirai Kan(13f):

String gaps

Jason
2(gap)3*

Kung Lao
1,1,2,1,2(gap),4
F2(gap),3*
4(gap),4*
b3,2(gap)1

Jax
1,2(gap)b4*
d1(gap)d2
2(gap)3*
2(gap)3(gap)2*
b3(gap)d2*
b3(gap)4*
Wrestler variation only
f3(gap)1+3*
f4(gap)1+3*

Sonya
b1(gap)4*
2(gap)1
2(gap)1,3(gap)4

Kenshi
4,4(gap)1*

Kitana
F33(gap)4*

Scorpion
1,1(gap)4*

Sub Zero
None

Mileena
Ravenous only
B1,2(gap)1+3*

Takeda
1(gap)1(gap)2
B2,1(gap)2+4-very small gap*

Cassie
1,2(gap)1*
B1,2(gap)4*
3,3(gap)2*

Jacqui
2,3,3(gap)4*

Kung Jin
F2,D1(gap)U2*
Shaolin only
2,2(gap)1*

Tanya(Credit to @Skitzo)​

24(gap)3
B31(gap)2
B31(gap)3
F4(gap)3

Kobu Jutsu
32(gap)1

Shinnok
112(gap)3*

Kano
1,1(gap)2*

Johnny Cage
Fisticuffs only
B12(gap)1*

Erron Black
B3,2(gap)D1*

Liu Kang
1,1(gap)3*
F1,2(gap)3*
2(gap)B2*

Ermac
F3(gap)4*- It has a gap but the 2 hits of 4 come out so fast that you have to have at least 2 hits of armor to beat it

Kotal Khan
2,1(gap)2

Reptile
1,4(gap)1*

Ferra Torr
Lackey Only
4(gap)2+4

Dvorah
1,1(gap)3*
2,1(gap)2*

Raiden
Thunder God Only
3(gap)2+4

Quan Chi
None

Goro
B1,2(gap)U2*
F2,1(gap)2+4*

​

*=String gap is backdashable


​
Click to expand...

all this is from @Zoidberg747 so credit goes to him.. it was in the strategy zone but since he used takeda i'd figure id repost it here.( hopefully its not a double post)
 
BoricuaHeat

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Added @Zoidberg747 's notes on D'Vorrah, Quan and Jacqui. I'm in the process of adding the string gaps for all the characters.

Also added frame data for tele cancels on block and an extra on Ronin's cancels and the missing characters to complete the list (DLC not included until Predator drops).
 
jaepeso170

jaepeso170

I Have A Plan...Attack
Just wanted to add my 2 cents.....

I had a match where I was able to use Low Slash>kunai against an opponent in the corner and was able to use it about 4 or 5 times in a row before they finally got out or blocked but I have used it several times after with the same result. I find easy to pull off and execute. Even though it may be because of the scarce Lashers online, most players dont know that punish.....yet
 
jaepeso170

jaepeso170

I Have A Plan...Attack
IMO Opinion after the HotFix I feel its only a matter of time be4 we see Takeda player make as far if not further than @RedRaptor10 at CB. Most likely Raptor himself or even one of us. We can do it fellas. Takeda Players LETS GO!!!!!!!
 
BoricuaHeat

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Added all string gaps from Zoid's notes.

jaepeso170 said:
Just wanted to add my 2 cents.....

I had a match where I was able to use Low Slash>kunai against an opponent in the corner and was able to use it about 4 or 5 times in a row before they finally got out or blocked but I have used it several times after with the same result. I find easy to pull off and execute. Even though it may be because of the scarce Lashers online, most players dont know that punish.....yet
Click to expand...
Low Slash > Kunai can be jumped out of on reaction sadly.
 
virtiqaL

virtiqaL

Noob
New to Takeda, and still figuring out the character. Just need something clarified...

What's the benefit of using Feint over a Kunai to make a string safe? Trying to understand when and how I should be using Feints as so far it seems better to use a Kunai for the adv on block it supposedly has.
 
aieches

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
virtiqaL said:
New to Takeda, and still figuring out the character. Just need something clarified...

What's the benefit of using Feint over a Kunai to make a string safe? Trying to understand when and how I should be using Feints as so far it seems better to use a Kunai for the adv on block it supposedly has.
Click to expand...
so far as what i can tell for pressure/ mix ups/ and just times where it will keep the opponent guessing.. like if they are close i like doing the tele cancel caiuse sometimes i will either not put the right trajectory command in for close kunai and i will get a mid kunai and be opened up .. or i do a close kunai and it hits right behind them then i have to eat whats coming next , or they are close enough to do a read and punish/jump/ etc if im have only been doing kunai cancels...
When they dont know a tele or tele cancel might come sometimes it scares them even more to press buttons ( even though on hit you really cant to to much but they dont have to know that lol )

plus as of right now everyone really expects the kunai cancel...tele cancels seem to catch people off gaurd since its not really brought out as much . i still use more kunai cancels than tele cancels but im def trying to apply more tele cancels to my gameplan.
 
BoricuaHeat

BoricuaHeat

PSN:KrocoCola
Feints allow you to bait armored reversals when their trying to punish the gap in Kunai cancels or certain strings.
 
aieches

aieches

#freeHomelee2016
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